I'm learning the 5th position on the violin, the fingerings are easy cos it's just like the 1st. But I find it very tiring after playing for 10 minutes on the G and D string, I'm ok with the A and E strings. The curved bit of the violin is in the way, so I have to push my elbow forward and twist my arm round. My intonation sounds terrible. I'm not sure if it's because I have small hands, so it feels like I really have to stretch. My teacher said it's all down to practice and if I'm really struggling, I should get a smaller violin. So I was wondering if its normal to feel like you've over stretched when you first learn the 5th position.

It really feels a little odd at first, but with practise you'll get it just fine - remember how wierd fourth finger felt in first position and how easy it is now? It'll be just like that.

That said, I'm a filthy folk fiddler and rarely go beyond 6th position, so I'm perhaps not the best person to ask!

If you have small hands (I speak from personal experience), then yes, you will find it hard work on the G and D strings. I cannot use my fourth finger on the G string beyond third position, it simply isn't long enough to reach.

A lot of teachers don't ever consider the issues smaller handed people have. Similarly, on the opposite end of the hand size issue, fat sausage-like fingertips are not much use for all those tiny spacings in high positions.

Having smaller hands means you need to be inventive about how you tackle the fingering of passages that require use of high positions on the lower two strings. I agree that a smaller violin would help - in fact, it's not until a studetn starts playing 'high up' that they do realise the instrument they are playing may just be a little too large for comfort. A small full-size instrument may be worth looking around for. Personally, I struggle with any violin over 352 mm back length, particularly if the shoulders (upper bouts) are rather square and the neck quite thick.

maybe a little off topic.....

but my reaction to the title of this post was "What?? There's a FIFTH position?!!!"

I'm getting to grips with 3rd position and can't get my head around how people remember the finger placements in all the different positions, or do you just get used to it by ear kind of??

:

When you begin to get really conversant with positions, it just becomes intuitive, and you stop thinking about which position you're in. I used to wonder how my teacher could play without thinking about which position she was in. Now I teach as well, and it just isn't an issue.

My main difficulty with higher positions on the G string is actually reaching :S
I have one piece and the majority is all on the G string - yet it goes up to D as in an octave higher than the open string D. I can play it - but i can barely reach! It's very uncomfortable and feels a little silly to be stretching that much in the most awquard way :S


I also have this thing where i find it really hard to figure out which position im in. I just put my finger where it would go make the note sound. If it says to have my 2nd finger playing an E on the A string, i just put my finger there and have no idea that im playing in *works it out* 3rd position (i actually can't believe that i just had to work out that that was 3rd position :S i'm extremely familiar with 3rd position i just don't always think about what position im in )

Although I don't have great experience in violin playing and positions I can relate to the above a bit, I also tend to think more of 'what note I play and where to land with my finger' rather than what position I am going to play in (if that makes any sense )
I have played in positions higher than 3rd but don't have a clue what positions I was in, I just knew what notes I was playing

Yep - I think there's about 16 positions in total. I'm working up to 8th at the moment which is proving interesting. To be honest, you just kinda get used to it.

Completely agree with all the advice already given - especially from AmandaL. I just wanted to add one more thing - have you had advice from your teacher about what your left thumb is doing? With small hands you need to be more aware of letting the left thumb slide under the neck as your hand moves up into higher positions, especially on the lower strings.

Apologies if you've already got this bit sorted but I know that it's something that pupils of mine have needed help with in the past.

I remember it was quite difficult finding higher positions on the viola, I found that as you are reaching over and further up the instrument the thumb can do less holding of the weight and the chin and shoulder needed to do more supporting.

(Alternatively you could pretend its a violin da gamba!)

Firstly, it's completely normal and a good sign that you have to twist your elbow - just let it happen and don't try to restrict it, there's no way of playing otherwise. The problem comes when you go back down, make sure you "untwist" and your elbow is pointing at the floor again in 1st position.

Intonation just needs practice - try and find some scales that go into 5th position (ask your teacher) and that should help. Your intonation probably sounded rubbish in every position when you started them, but you may have got more self-critical since then and anyway, 5th pos is harder.

I don't think small hands should really restrict you that much. Mine are tiny - really tiny, so that I can't get past 6th position without putting my left thumb on the rib of the violin rather than the neck (and that's on the E string) but I play a 4/4 and have managed pieces like Paganini's Moses Variations which is all on the G string and goes off the fingerboard. It's a matter of increasing flexibility, familiarity with the violin, and being inventive. If your teacher has small hands he/she can help, but assuming they don't you might like to seek out fellow shorties and ask what they do. It might jsut be that you need to go round onto the rib of the violin rather than keep your thumb on the beck.

Violin111, I am sort of in your position. About 2 months ago I was learning a piece with 3 lines of 5th posiiton in it and I had never used 5th position before. As you say the fingering is easy so the stretch and twisting your arm around are the only problems.

My teacher told me to start with the 1st finger down in 3rd positon. Then move that finger up to 1st in 5th position. Then put the other 3 fingers down in 5th. Then go back down and repeat over and over. Start on the E string and then work over to the G string.

You will find it hard. But if you do ti for5 minutes for a month or so it willbe so much easier for you taht you can shift to 5th with ese and play crystal clear notes.

According to my teacher when i try and shift to 5th i an "still scrabbaling about for the note".

Hope I help you.

Just wondering how anyone can stretch beyond 5th position? It just does not seem possible, I failed miserably when I tried.

It will come!!
As well as moving your elbow round and forward, you need to raise your wrist to take the fingers further. Also, allow your thumb to come as far as it needs to in order to accommodate the higher positions.

Thanks for everyone's advice. It's really useful! I haven't played my violin all week (I really need to practice more!). The 5th position doesn't sound so daunting now. Professional violinst make the higher positions look so easy. Guess I just need to get used to twisting my arm around into such an unnatural position. I need to sort out my thumb and find the best place to put it.

I'm going get out my violin and try out what you all suggested.

With practice it wont seem like an unusual psition.
Im playing a piece at the moment that goes into 11th position, but after some practice you forget about the position and think about the notes (well in 11th position i ahve no ideawaht notes im playing) but you get the idea.
be patient, it will come.

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