At our church where I play the organ the Gloria is said and said as if at a funeral. Every time, I think of the joy of Bach's b-minor mass setting and think I must do something about it.

Can anyone recommend a setting that can be sung unison by the congregation with organ accompaniment. We number 30-40 and the rest of the music is mainly traditional hymns with the occasional modern item.

Merbecke?

There are also a few responsorial glorias around which are nice. There's one we use at my church which is just written out by hand - sure I could give you a copy if you like.

Also don't forget the many paraphrases of the gloria to famous hymn tunes.

David.

Marbecke is good. I would also recommend Addington, and A New People's Mass, by Dom Gregory Murray. One of my favourites was composed by a friend of mine. It's very effective and easy to sing. It was named after the local children's hospice, Martin House. If you're interested, I can send you it in exchange for a small donation to Martin House per copy printed, which I believe is the policy my friend has always held.

I would not recommend Patrick Appleford's New English Mass, which they use at one of the churches where I play. I'm thinking of changing it...

I have composed quite a useful congregational Gloria. It works with either organ, or acoustic instruments, or both. We use it with organ and descant recorder, and even violin and/or oboe: (While on honeymoon long years ago we had tea with my husband's old recorder teacher Fr Gregory. It was not till later I realised he was Dom Gregory Murray.)
We use his Mass quite a bit: He was very keen on getting the congregation singing the Mass.

I can let anyone who might be interested have a copy and /or a basic MP3 of it in use last year (only basically recorded on my Creative Nano). PM me

SS

At one time the RSCM supplied a blue book entitled 'Five Instant Glorias and a Creed' or something like that. It was paraphrases of the Gloria set to hymn tunes, but no worse than almost all the settings of Series III, Rite A and Common Worship which, generally, are dire.

There are numerous settings in unison by Stanford, Bairtstow, Parry and Nicholson (in four part harmony) that are very singeable and tuneful, but the clergy tend not to like them because they use the words from the Book of Common Prayer.

In such circumstances 'Five Instant Glorias' might be a good solution.

Barry Williams

the NEH has a form of a gloria at 363, 'glory in the highest to the God of Heaven' sang to that mighty fine tune Cuddeson. If you don't like the tune you could always use Evelyns (at the name of Jesus) i suppose

There is one arranged by John Harper called the peruvian gloria or something, sang between cantor and congregation. Rhythymic, but the notes are easy. I can't abide it personally, but some find value in it.

If you have Kevin Mayhew hymn books, the Anglican and Catholic versions have a selection of mass settings. The RSCM published a big blue book with a number of mass settings for common worship texts. All of which are handled quite easily by a small congregation.

Currently we are using the Rizza from the big Mayhew hymn book (the orange one)

Some churches sometimes sing it to "Land of hope and glory". This works well if you repeat the last line of each verse.

Holy Saturday we use a metrical version that fits the hymn version of Beethoven's Ninth, this is preceded by a fanfare whilst all the candles in the place are lit - such this the time involved in this that one year I more or less[1] played the whole Crown Imperial as the introduction.

[1] More in as much as I was playing from the music and taking as long as the real thing. Less in that I was playing an approximation to the real thing.

The point with Dom Gregory Murray's Mass (and anything I set to music, though I suppose there are more controls on Anglican church music than Catholic, in terms of parish composers) is that it is straight words intended for the congregation to sing, with nothing paraphrased, lengthened or shortened.

This means that non music readers can get to grips with the tune over a season and sing from the book of words.

The Peruvian is particularly truncated. And I made the huge mistake one year of using a Mass set to well known carol tunes at Midnight Mass, - it was hideous!!

Dom Gregory Murray's 'Peoples' Mass' started life around 1948 as a popular setting of the rc Latin mass. It was subsequnetly metamorphosed as different versions of the texts came out in English, suffering amendments to bend it to the awful 'ICET/ICEL', currently popular with the clergy in the Church of England.

There are several versions of it around, including one completely in harmony, which gives the choir something to do whilst permitting the congregation to sing the melody, as in an hymn. It covers the ground quickly and efficiently. It may not be especially good, but neither are most of the other settings. The so-called 'Peruvian' Gloria is particuarly bad and has never been anywhere near Peruvia, being an American invention.

The 'ICET/ICET' texts are a real musical problem, added to which is the latest fiddling by General Synod, leading, in the Gospel Responses, to a rather prominent 'you' which seems to be a feature of these liturgies. ('You' is a difficult word to sing and invariably has an ugly effect. It can always be avoided by good liturgical writing, but the clergy seem to like it it have undue prominence on every possible occasion. (For example, change "And also with you" to "The Lord Bless You" as in the Book of Ruth, in the Dialogue to the Preface.)

It is perfectly possible to have modern and felicitous English in liturgy. What there is now actually owes more to Elizabethan syntax than modernity, and it is not merely unmodern, it is bad English.

Barry Williams

I managed to persuade a clergyman not to do that on Christmas day a couple of years back. I can imagine it was hideous!

There is a mass by (i believe) Phillip Ledger that uses tunes such as the Largo from Dvorak 'New World' symphony.

Was published in a set by RSCM of new masses a few years ago for congregational settings. A particuarly fine setting by Grayston Ives is also in there. Thats a very nice gloria

(or the Rawsthorne one for Rite A )

We use the Rutter one from (one of? ) his communion setting/s. (Not his famous Gloria)

It is easy, and while it does not exactly set the world alight it is a cut above just saying the gloria. In fact I think the reason we use this one is it is quite close to speech in its rhythms, and we still have a slight debate going with the greater parish about the sing it or say it issue!

Hope you can find something you like.

Wish I'd faired as well as you in putting the kibosh on the use of Ledger's Christmas Gloria last year. Some seemed to like it, but it wasn't my cup of tea at all.

You can always mix and match - at one of the churches where I play on occasion, we use the Martin House Gloria and Angus Dei, but the Addington Sanctus and Benedictus.

thanks for all the suggestions to date - will be googling various suggestions and contacting some of you soon.

Excellent!

You could also try Mass of st Thomas by David Thorne. Both my congregations find it very singable, and there have been no cries for something different after 5 years of using it. We have a small choir in one church, but we sing it unison.

This seems to be a popular item, but is rather boring, really having only one 'tune' - actually just a melodic idea.

Re-harmonising a few of the chords gives a better progression in several places, as I have heard done on quite a few broadcasts. As these are not in the choral harmony sections, they do not affect the choir.

It is a great pity that there is no really good setting of the ICET/ICEL/Common Worship words. Several eminent composers declined to set them, which is a pity.

Barry Williams

Do you think that maybe they've just died of boredom?

No, they have not, but I have. They are not keen on new stuff, and it's a battle I don't want to fight at the mo.

They are not a very musical bunch.... however, you have to go with what you've got.

just play a new one. they then discover how bored they were of the old. Congregational copies on paper given out prior to service - simple.

One thing i have learnt in church music that if you want to do something, you have to just do it, and not go around asking people.

Good idea, excpet I'm not the organist... that would be my first and second battle! I'd do all sorts of things if I had a willing / enthusiastic organist and a congregation who were happy to sing.

I sympathize, Emma! One of my churches has had Murray for several years.

I played the Thorne once, and was very underwhelmed.

Do you think you can gently encourage some change?

Murray... yawn. Poor you!

I'm sure that I can get things to change eventually. I want to have a look at the whole service again, but will have to tread carefully there too - often people think that if I indtoduce something that wasn't there before it is implied criticism that what they have done up until now has all been wrong / no good.... If I try to introduce something new, we have the 'we don't know this, we'll change it instead of learn it' mentality.... *Sigh*

When I came first they were singing the liturgy to well known hymn tunes, so we've come a long way! I'm keen to use something accessible and congregational, and something that doens't require me to re-do all the service books because the words don't fit.... Answers on a postcard please!

The team who came up with Common Worship have since published two further 'companion' books of extra liturgy. One is called times and seasons, which focuses on major festivals and liturgy specific to that festival, such as eucharistic extended prefaces and the like, and a further book of which the name escapes me for lesser festivals (predominantly Saints days, but also Corpus Christi etc)

Well worth a look, and large chunks written by the Revd. Jeremy Haselock of Norwich Cathedral, who is quite catholic in his attitudes

The red and blue ones published by RSCM? .... there are one or two good things. I'd rather use something that is a coherent composition, rather than bits and pieces from various people in various styles etc. I haven't the time to do loads of research and try and find things that sound as though they were meant to be together. Sadly I just can't find what I'm looking for!!!

For normal services we use Rutter, as we do for the whole service. Once a month when we have an all age service we sing "You Are The King Of Glory" (no. 790 in Mission Praise) which I don't much care for personally, but others seem to like it. We've also done the Peruvian Gloria from time to time.

Speaking not as an organist, but choir mistress (sounds grander than it is - we're a very small and not very good choir). I'd say whatever you try, make sure the choir knows it thoroughly before you try it out on everyone else (unless - unlike my lot - they're all all extremely flexible and good sight-readers)!

Mmm. Out of our 7 members, only 1 reads music. Sort of. It's a pity she has a loud voice and frequently sings what she thinks is written....

We do the Thorne at school and despite its limitations, at least the kids actually join in with it.

The one I used to used in my Parish Church was the Martin How one, which although the choir thought was a little limiting, the congregation really liked it and joined in with plenty of gusto. THere was almost a riot when I suggested that we try a new one (having done the How for 7 years!)

I suppose it's like anything else. Hymns, for instance. If you sing new things, the traditionalists complain, and if you sing the same old things, it doesn't attract new people, and people complain that it's tedious. I occasionally play at a church where the congregation (what's left of them) dislikes learning anything new. On the rare occasions when they are faced with the challenge of a slight alteration to the usual programme, one of the senior citizens shakes the vicar's hand at the end, and at length says, "we didn't like that...".

How about the Carroll Andrews Gloria from A New Mass for Congregations.

This is the only one we do in my parish, (Every Sunday Mass every week for at least the last 10 years!)

I used three or four settings in my old parish, trying to vary things seasonally, but the setting that became perennial and the one that people 'liked' was the Thorne Mass of St Thomas.

I personally quite liked the Paul Leddington Wright Stoneleigh Service published by Mayhew, and have just decided to opt for a setting to be used occasionally in our school chapel David Ogden's Mass of New Wine, published by White Light and available through RSCM- yes, plenty of repetition, but quite rhythmically alive, with options to add descants, and quick to pick up.
http://www.whitelightpublishing.co.uk/scores/
One of the choristers at rehearsal this morning commented that he felt the music was too recycled ('same music, different words'), but as it will be congregational and for occasional rather than regular use, and be easy to vary, it meets a need. If he wants something meaty to get his teeth into, I'll have to dig out the Britten Missa Brevis!

I have a good Mayhew little book which I use occasionally. It has a metrical seting of all of the Ordinary that fits various hymn tunes. As luck would have it, I can't remember what its called, but they still sell it on their website. Useful for big services when might have lots of strangers who might not pick up a setting very quickly.

Strangely enough we are considering changing again, so the sermons on Sunday consisted of us all listening to the CD, although it was pointed out to the congregation that we have neither orchestra nor choir, so it won't sound quite the same. If we decide to make the change, to help with familiarity I will play bits before/during the service to help with familiarity.

Have many people tried writing their own settings? I seem to have heard quite a few homemade ones, some better than others...

Perhaps we can all have a go at writing one part of a short Missa ABRSMensis or something? What do you think...

I'm up for it!

I will do the Agnus Dei!!

I will do the gloria, providng i can use the 1662 words

I wanted to do the Gloria!!

I'll do the Sanctus and Benedictus!

I was going to introduce singing the Gloria (Gregory Murray) at one of my churches this morning, but it didn't work out. Aside from the fact that I spent a great deal of the service running around the church changing hymn numbers, I realised that it possibly wasn't a good idea to distribute copies of the music, with copyright etc... The priest announced that I would play the setting after mass, but of course the congregation just shouted over the top of the music as usual. Why does anyone bother?!!

Why not get the priest to announce that you will play it before mass, and tell the congregation to listen?

He seemed on the verge of exploding, and playing it after the mass was the most diplomatic thing I could think of...

We should be changing in the next couple of weeks, so they've been having bits of it subliminally, eg: during the communion they had the agnus dei played in the background, and whilst the priest went from the high altar to the Lady chapel to say the angelus[1] I play the acclamation thingy (christ has died etc).

[1] Obviously this is Church of England.

Subliminal doesn't work with the RC congregation I play for - you have to sock it to 'em as heavily as possible...

In that case you need my other method: I sing louder than the congregation, so the way I play it and sing it wins!

Mind you I did get slightly lost yesterday, there was a hymn without about 8 verses so after I unisoned to start with and sung a couple of bass verses I optimistically assumed it was one I knew well enough to try a tenor verse - so there were rather garbled words for one verse!

I have written a congregational setting for the Parish of SS Peter & paul, Wantage. It is easy and (I am told) attractive. If you would like a copy, please e-mail me - john@ridgway6793.freeserve.co.uk or text 07867 527215. There is also a version for SATB.

We have been using Addington [for what feels like] forever.

Over the past few years we have started using Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord (CMP 239 / Anglican Hymns Old & New 309) for Family All Age () Services.

This is repeated as Jesus, Jesus; Worthy Worthy, etc. for the Agnus Dei and Benedictus.

This is simple but effective, and very easy for a non musical congregation to follow. Our Rector was keen to use it every week, but there were mutterings of 'over my dead body' from some quarters, so that idea was droped.

Once you have them used to the idea of singing the Gloria you can try sneaking in something more adventurous.

However, I shall be e-mailing John to have a look at his version as I have a feeeling it might be what I have been trying to track down for a while.

SB