This follows on from an earlier thread of mine about what brass instrument my son might start to learn while wearing a brace.

Well, he's had a couple of lessons with the brass teacher at school and has brought a school euphonium home to experiment with over the holidays. It's early days, but going better than I expected so far...

The school euphonium is rather old and battered, and the teacher said we might want to consider renting a better one from elsewhere should son decide to continue. I'm not sure our local brass shop rents euphoniums; I'll investigate, but meanwhile am toying with the idea of buying a student instrument, but the whole business seems very confusing.

In particular, what are the differences between 3 valve, 4 valve, and 4-valve compensating euphoniums, and what does "English style" imply? I presume a 3 valve instrument would be adequate for a beginner. Is that right? When would more valves become handy? Can anyone recommend any particular makes, and does anyone know anything about the rather cheap (as euphoniums go) instruments available from either Gear4Music or Cranes? Thanks.

please don't go for a Gear4Music or Cranes instrument - they are truly awful. Have a look at the John Packer website and their own range which are pretty good or go for a second hand Yamaha 201 or such which can often be found on Ebay for around £200

A 4-valve one helps with the pitching at the bottom through the use of a different fingering. Top notes aren't affected too much by it, and in your son's case the top notes will probably be non-existent anyway due to the braces. Not sure what English-style implies (I believe it means it has more veiled tone as opposed to the American-style which sounds more open). If you are buying a student model then a 3-valve one will be fine, although if they are about the same price then you know, more features isn't usually a bad thing.

On a compensating instrument, when the another valve is used in combination with the fourth the total tubing added to the length is greater than the sum of the lengths added by the two valves alone. This gives easier fingering and better tuning for the very lowest notes. E.g. on the Bb euphonium:

Note - - - - 4-valve - - - 4-valve- - - 3-valve
concert - - plain - - compensator
pitch
F - - - - - - - 4 - - - - - - - 4 - - - - - - - - 1+3 (this is F at the bottom of bass clef)
Eb- - - - - - 4+1+2 - - - 4+1 - - - - - - - X
D - - - - - - -4+2+3*- - - 4+3 (or 4+1+2)
C# - - - - - 4+1+2+3- - 4+2+3
C - - - - - - - X- - - - - - - 4+1+3

X no correct fingering

* and lip down or pull out a slide for accurate tuning

The compensator has longer valves and more tubing than the plain 4-valve, so the cost is higher;.also, typically, it weighs more.

I got a second hand yamaha 201, they are great instuments.

As for number of valves, go for 3 as a beginner, and then perhaps think about 4 at around grade 5 - 6 standard.

Good Luck!

Many thanks for your comments and explanations. We have decided to carry on with the school instrument for now. Having spoken to my son's teacher it seems his main worry was not the quality of the sound from the instrument, but that my son would get grubby from handling the tarnished areas of the instrument where the lacquer has come off. So, we (he!) will put up with any grime for now, and we will consider buying something better once we know euphonium will "take".

Meanwhile, the school instrument really does look pretty bad. Is there a way I can clean it up without doing further damage to the lacquer? Would it be better to leave it as it is?

The outsides don't matter too much and a good wipe will usually do the trick. The insides however would probably benefit from submerging it in warm water for a few hours or overnight to run the muck out. However this requires knowing how to take the thing apart (easy) and putting back together (not so much) so ask the teacher about it! Also after a horn bath the slides will probably need slides re-greasing and valves re-oiling.

Re-lacquering is probably not the best option seeing as you don't actually own the instrument. Could try asking for another euphonium from the county, although the retro tatty brass look has it's own charms in my humble opinion

I have to disagree (slightly). I bought a Gear4Music French horn recently (about £150), because I wanted to give it a try. I couldn't find a second hand one on ebay that I would trust, and second hand from somewhere like Paxman's is still around £500. Gear4Music also let you return within 14 days if you're not happy. My teacher says that the F side doesn't blow as easily a the B flat side, but it is more than adequate as a first instrument to get my feet wet.

6 months/a year down the line I can easily trade it in for a better model; having learned the basics and decided it's for me. According to my teacher, he knows a few people with the Gear4Music horns; they are sufficient for beginners. I was warned away several times, but it's doing the job for me, and my teacher is happy for now....

(of course, I'm assuming here that the quality of the euphoniums are on a par with their horns... - perhaps you have first hand experience that says otherwise...)

Haha, yeah, I used one of their horns to start and the F side is actually non-existent on mine. I treated it like a single Bb most of the time. They aren't bad to start on, plus it is dead cheap.

Hi there

I have had first hand experience with the Euphoniums and stand by my original post.

However it is worth noting that my experience is from about 18 months ago and the quality of most of these "own brand" instruments being built in China is improving all the time at an rapid rate so they may have improved dramatically since my experience of them.

They did need too though!

Hello! I myself am a euphonium player in the school band, and I have a little bit of input.

Firstly, I find that three valves has done the trick perfectly for me. Thus far in my playing I have not encountered a note I couldn't play with a little practice. I know the four valves can help hit lower notes, but that may be something to think about further down the road if he gets really into it. It's your (and his, I suppose) preferance.

The second thing I want to mention is, I got braces about two months ago. It was pretty bad at first, but now at this point after practicing with them I can make it to the high A, and if I try really hard, the B flat. So whoever said the high notes are non-existant because he got braces, think again, because I am making it higher up the scale the more I practice. Just remember to tell your son that the most important thing to remember is to STOP WHEN IT HURTS.

I can't help you with the buying of an instrument if you're going to go that way, I am inexperienced with that sort of thing.

Hope I helped a bit.

Thanks for your comments and encouragement. My son has only learnt 5 notes so far, so the brace may well have come off before he has high notes to contend with!! I don't think he's a natural musician but he certainly seems to be enjoying euphonium so far, and is being uncharacteristically determined to overcome difficulties as they arise.

He's still using the school euphonium, while I keep a beady eye on ebay.. I did invest in a practice mute though!!

Well, if he was able to learn five notes on the euphonium when it was a new instrument and he had braces, that's a good start and I think he'll do excellently on it. The first couple days of having braces I myself was reduced to about 4 or 5 notes, I couldn't even do the B flat scale, so it sounds like he's doing great! I'm glad he likes playing the euphonium, it's a pretty cool instrument.

Uncharacteristically determined? It sounds like he's having a good time with it and wants to make it go somewhere.