Just taken ABRSM Grade 1 jazz piano and am taking grade 2 this term. Am really enjoying the music and the opportunity to improvise, but I know I'm relying very much on my ear and I don't even have any basic knowledge of jazz theory. I've got A level music and Grade 5 theory, taken many moons ago (can hardly remember anything) but, to be fair, I was always pretty rubbish at the theory side of things. I've got a good ear (I think) so my teacher is really pleased with my impros. They come easily and sound authentic enough, but I know that if I want to progress to the higher grades, I'll need some knowledge of jazz theory. I'd also like to get to the point where I can vamp along with things using chords rather than relying on notation all the time. I can do it, but only at a very basic level.

I've looked at books, started reading things but I think I'm the kind of person that needs to learn things in context i.e. through doing. (To be honest, I start reading a page about jazz theory and my eyes start glazing over! I've always been the same about theory...)

Any suggestions? I was just looking at some of the City Lit courses, which look good. I see they suggest a basic 'pop' course before starting on their jazz piano courses. Trouble is, I've got a busy job and a small child and it's always a struggle fitting everything in.

Any thoughts welcome...

I think I've managed to acquire a reasonable knowledge of jazz theory over the past 5 years or so, and looking back it's almost all been in the context of instrumental workshops / lessons, rather than as a separately learned subject or from a book. The previous teacher we had for our jazz group was quite keen on it and regularly used to get the white board out and start writing things up. I'm lucky in that numbers and patterns seem to automatically make sense to me (I've got quite a mathematical brain) so although the current teacher doesn't really strress theory I can remember and use all the skills I learnt previously. My sax teacher will also discuss the theory behind some of the stuff we're working on, often at quite an advanced level (using minor 6 shapes over a blues progression to imply the altered scale this weekend).

For me the approach of inserting some theory when it's in the context of the music you're playing has worked very well. Although I did grade 5 theory at school and passed with distinction it was really just regurgitating knowledge. With the jazz theory I feel as though I understand it thoroughly and make use of it each time I play and I suspect that is because I've been taught in this way.

Could your jazz piano teacher spend some time on theory with you in your lessons?

Although my piano skills are very, very limited I do have the grade 1 jazz piano book and there seems to be plenty of stuff in the tunes in there that would merit some analysis and discussion as to how it applies to other tunes. I know you played Inchworm at G1 - there are some nice sus chords in there that could start a discussion, and of course there's a blues at every grade - looking at blues progressions and variations thereof could pull in an awful lot of theory.

Hmm...I'm unlucky in that numbers and patterns do not automatically make sense to me! And I was useless and theory and the theory side of A level. But I must think positive - perhaps greater maturity will help!
I will ask my teacher - seeing her this afternoon. I'm doing C-jam Blues at the mo - maybe I'll start with that. She's not a jazz specialist so I'm guessing that she knows a bit but probably not enough if I want to carry up the jazz route. I'd half thought I might do grade 2 ABRSM then think about changing to a specialist teacher.

I was reading up about your new ensemble teacher actually. See he's played with Amy Winehouse recently, done the BRIT, Jools Holland and all sorts of exciting stuff...!

Cheers for the suggestion...

I know - the O2 supporting Prince one week, StudioSounds at BCMA the next, life as a jazzer!

(You mentioned City Lit.) Many years ago, I went to jazz piano evening classes at Morley College, London (beginners' and advanced classes were offered). I thought they were very good, but a lot depends on the particular tutor, of course. I'd recommend seeing if they're still running.

When I was there, you could go to one class at the start of term before deciding whether to pay to continue. Being something of a jazz-playing novice, I first went to one session of the beginners' course but it was way too basic. With some trepidation I went to an advanced class. As I walked in, I thought I'd made a dreadful mistake and would be hopelessly out of my depth, because half the people there were older-looking males, who I assumed were all well-experienced jazz players. But it just turned out that OAPs got in free (or very cheaply).

Being part of a class was very helpful - more than is measured just by the relatively small set of facts that you acquire by being there.

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You're lucky you already seem to be good at jazz improvisation (which, sadly, I've never really become good at, despite being quite good at musical improvisation in other contexts). I think what you mainly need to add to that are: (a) getting jazz harmony to come naturally; and (b) listening to jazz to get a good jazz feel into your playing.

Do, of course, let the theory you learn IMPROVE the way you play, not DETERMINE it. You say you rely a lot on your good ear - IMHO you OUGHT to.

Depending on what kind of jazz you want to play, there's a lot of stuff that you could take seriously - or not - such as learning fairly standard LH voicings for chords - these assume there's a bass player and that you'll not only expressly avoid playing a bass part, but will also mainly play LH chords with the roots left out - they REALLY don't look like the chords you would have done in A-Level music. But, however quick your brain is, you probably can't work out suitable chords and voice leading afresh every time you play. Some people recommend rigorous learning of "II-V-I" LH voicings in all keys (because that chord progression appears so often in some kinds of jazz). You could skimp in that whole area if your interest is in a type of jazz where that's less important.

There are numerous books that cover all that.

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I, for one, am particularly fond of jazz harmony. If you ever just want to sit at the piano and play a familiar song tune (straight without improvisation), the use of jazz harmony gives you a lot of options and a lush palate - I think it's worth learning just for that aspect alone - though you mustn't get so that you always use those chords out of habit.

To start, at very least find out soon what jazz people mean by "tritone-substitute", and be sure to know the sound of "sharp ninth" chords. [Exercise: play this dominant thirteenth chord - B flat, A flat, D, G; then replace the B flat by an E.] Then try randomly stacking simple triads on top of dominant seventh chords, and on top of the major and minor diatonic chords of a major key, and you'll soon stumble into ways of creating a lot of the colour that you hear in jazz. Also look for ways of constructing familiar chords by, as far as possible, stacking fourths instead of thirds.

Well, I have read all the replies ( some of which were excellent comments) and in my opinion as a piano teacher is that you need tuition from a teacher who understands jazz and jazz harmony.
I have taken classically trained pianist at any grade but have had to go from scratch (pre grade 1 standard) in terms of jazz and retrained them to understand the theory behind the dots.

What I also notice is that jazz musicians can adapt to playing classical music faster than the other way around. This would be because jazzers have a deeper understanding of theory in practice. No offence classical people, but it is like a different dialect of the same language.

Cheers for all the advice everyone. Am wondering whether it's best to spend another year or so getting my general piano skills back up to scratch before getting lessons from a jazz teacher?

I feel frustrated though, because I REALLY want to get going on chord voicings etc, but everyone I start to teach myself from books etc I get overwhelmed and end up giving up. I feel as I just need someone to guide me through in little chunks. After grade 2 jazz, my teacher asked me to have a look for some stuff to do in the autumn term (think she was hoping I might want to do some classical!). I did try, but came home with a load of jazz music. She has suggested I redo an early classical grade (e.g. 2 or 3) just to get back into the swing of classical this year (got to grade 6 as a child but had a teacher who just put me in for exam after exam, so I never felt I was really that standard) which I am happy to do. Thinking about maybe trying grade 3 jazz and classical this year, but at the back of my mind I am just dying to be able to get onto the real jazz stuff!

Just noticed Trinity have a jazz summer school this year (now full up) which is on my doorstep (have a young child so summer schools away from home not an option really). Something to aim for next year, maybe?!

Tsax has put me in touch with a jazz piano teacher. Wonder if it might be worth having a few lessons to get me going on the jazz stuff? I'm really happy with the teacher I've got at the moment...she certainly knows the jazz theory and is a very accomplished musician but jokes about the fact she 'can't do jazz' herself.

Said teacher has covered a couple of lessons recently when our regular jazz teacher couldn't make it. He really is both an excellent teacher and an excellent pianist. You know my advice!

Hey Jinxi...

I have been studying and teaching classical music for a good number of years but it wasn't until I started music at university level that I developed a serious interest in jazz. I found that mainstream music theory to be a solid foundation from which to expand your repertory into the field of jazz. Like myself, I found the practical application of jazz harmony and improvisation very natural. I enhanced this by saturating myself in jazz music. Listening is an essential starting point. It will increase your awarness of various piano sonorities and textural variations to begin with, and then in context of harmonic depth. Another thing to listen out for is how the piano interacts with the other instruments whether it be a chamber ensemble or a big band. To know WHAT you want to achieve will help you to become more objective in respect of your self-directed study.

When you are ready to start treat yourself to these fantastic books. The author is Tim Richards. The reason why I believe these are the books for you is because he starts of with the most basic chord voicing patterns and builds up your knowledge of jazz harmony though pages of reading followed by practical exercises and application of each musical idea. So in effect, you have theory and practical in one. To optimize your learning you could prepare by really working and refreshing your scales to increase fluency, and makes sure you know your key signatures and chord inversions inside out. Build up your skills doing this by progressing up the piano in 5ths, starting at different points each time. When you have throughly practiced this you are ready to get yourself these lovely book, which come with CD. Perfect solution for self-directed study. There are some nice arrangements of jazz standards included. Miles Davis, Hancock etc.

I have sent you a link to them on musicroom.com.

http://www.musicroom.com/se/ID_No/096161/details.html


Anyhow....good luck with your studies!

Thanks - that's so helpful! Just got my grade 2 result in which was great and lots of encouraging remarks from the examiner about my improvisation skills and feel for jazz styles.

My teacher is very encouraging with the jazz stuff and has got me some books and things to play around with. She thinks I should and do the early classical grades alongside the jazz grades (or at least play repertoire at that level) to refresh my pianistic skills, understanding of theory, know all my scales etc. I think she is probably right. I think I'll invest in the book your recommend in the meantime though..

I'm not sure I'm really competent to offer advice but I've found this a really interesting thread.

I play Clarinet not Piano and would like to do some more Jazz stuff but it does look so much more difficult that classical - mainly perhaps as my theory is poor.

I think I would say that you should follow your heart and learn Jazz Piano if that is what you want to do and not Classical just because you have found a good Classical teacher. But that is just what I think and I could be wrong

Also as a follow up question do AB do a Jazz Theory Exam or is it just the standard theory?

It's not more difficult - just different.

If you want to learn jazz then do, but be prepared to have to go back to basics and play very simple things not terribly well for a while - it's a scary thing to do for an accomplished classical musician to suddenly appear to be not very accomplished at all, but imagine a musician who had only ever played by ear and never done any reading at all, you wouldn't expect them to suddenly be able to read complicated music just because in all other ways it was within their technical remit. They'd have to go through the minim, crotchet, quaver, EGBDF, FACE thing just like anyone else.

Fair point - I guess it's like everything else you don't know until you try.

LCM do Popular Theory exams - and that covers Jazz too - there's a thread in the Theory Forum

I passed grade 8 classical piano a couple of months ago and last week had my first ever lessons on improvisation. Lesson 1 was all about Jazz scales. Lesson 2 was about the 4 note chords derived from them. Having played guitar all my life more or less (I'm 48) there were chords I knew how to play but didn't know where they came from. Suddenly I did - it all made sense. I'm not saying that now I can instantly play any chord in any mode of any scale (yet) but at least I now have the tools. Without a teacher I could have listened to the jazz greats from now to eternity and however much I liked what I heard I wouldn't have understood.

I know exactly what you mean! I love the logic of jazz theory, the way my brain works it all makes sense very easily - I just wish I could get my playing skills up to the same level.

Back when I started improvising and playing jazz I tried to consciously "switch off" the logical bit of my brain - the reason being that I thought I needed to feel more than to think, and to learn to use my ears more than my head. At some point, a year or so in I suddenly realised that I was shooting myself in the foot by not utilising one of my assets, and understanding the harmony didn't preclude any of the more intuitive musical responses.

I'm the opposite - all intuition and no logic. I was rubbish at maths at school, so I've got to work on turning down the intuition and cranking up the logic, at least for the moment!