Just a little rant - sorry.

Has anyone else ever had the situation where they teach two siblings and one waits while you teach the other? I am sure plently of you do. I usually let the sibling sit in the music room with me while I teach the other so my famiy can carry on and I leave drawing things on the desk for the chldren to keep them amused. I have discovered that one of the children is quietly going through my desk drawers while I teach. I noticed a coiuple of small things were missing a few weeks ago and thought that this was very odd but this week, I checked straight after the lesson and noticed that several things had gone. I questioned the girls who said that they did not know where they were despuite the fact that packets etc were on my floor. All of a sudden, the missing articles 'appeared' down the side of the chair in the living room! I am hopping mad now. I rang the mother to say that the girls had been going through my desk but didn't say that things were going missing, she said that she would have a word with them but I am really unhappy about the situation. I will now have to keep them away from the desk now and \i feel really uncomfortable.

Sorry - just wanted to get that out of my system.

Tasha

It can be difficult having one child wait for another . I have a few that have back to back lessons and find that they will sit very quietly if they are allowed to bring in game machines or personal music players. They have to use head phones of course and turn the volume down so that it cannot be heard by anyone else but this works well. It must have been really annoying when the pupils nosed through your desk but it was a tempting situation for them perhaps and also a long wait with little to do and no supervision. It is best not to put kids into situations like that. I know several adults who would not be against having a look at my diary or student notes given half a chance.

I do suggest that waiting students bring books, homework, games machines etc and most do if they have to wait.

Way back when I had lessons, my teacher used to have 2 or 3 pupils in at once , as she taught us all theory at the same time. Pupils would come and go in a 'rolling fashion' at about 20 min intervals, but we were there for more than an hour usually. Two were doing theory at the table whilst she was giving most of her attention for whoevers turn it was at the piano. It worked quite well really.

I have several pairs of siblings taught back to back. From the outset I make it very clear to parents that this is partly a favour for them to make life easier. I also let the students know this as well. It is abundantly clear that if there is any nonsense then I will not teach them together. I request that parents supply them with homework / games machines etc. I also will not agree to the arrangemnt before the youngest sibling is 9 years old. Before that they are far too young to expect them to be sensible for half an hour. As they get older I teach the theory element to both siblings Before starting on the practical side and then they always have something to get on with.

I have also been known, on a couple of occasions, to put a chair in my hallway with absolutely nothing else there if one has been disruptive. It works a treat when the parent collects because even if the parent does not normally come in to collect the children, the remaining sibling is only too pleased to get the parent so that I can discuss the behaviour of the waiting sibling. Parents are generally mortified that I have had to send their child out so that the other one can have an uninterrupted lesson.

My advice is to lay down a few ground rules, and stick to them. I also tell parents that although more convenient to them half an hour is an awful long time for a child to wait. I have 5 children of my own, and they have never had to wait while any of the others have had lessons, we have alwys arranged for them to go at separate times, it can be done!

I would be furious if one of my girls had done this and they would be made to face you and take responsibility for their actions.

It's wrong to go snooping whether they have to wait half an hour, ten minuites or two hours!! There's also a big difference between looking and taking things.

I wonder what explaination will be given for their behaviour?

Yes on a couple of occassions I've had a pupil wait while brother or sister had their lesson first.

I have a dining table near the piano though so I can see them from where I'm sitting.

I wouldn't be very impressed by this behaviour at all and I think you have a right to feel cross! I'm always very careful to point out that my living room isn't the same as a classroom as maybe young kids don't see the difference. It's a family home, and some of the things in it don't even belong to me, so they know not to touch anything they shouldn't.

Can you sit the waiting child where you can see her? I have a several pupils who wait and like other posters I insist they bring something to do. If they forget, which is rare, I provide colouring pictures for the young ones. The older ones always bring homework and seem happy to have a quiet time to get on with it. But I am fortunate in that I can always put them where I can see them.

I think if they have been going through your things you are quite entitled to give them a good telling off. You may have inadvertantly left them in a tempting situation but if they are old enough for music lessons they are old enough to understand that one doesn't give in to every temptation and that other people's belongings are to be respected.

Whatever the mother's reaction I would be inclined the very next time you sit one of them to wait to say something like "I know exactly where everything on my desk is or in the drawers is and you will not touch it. If you do, not only will I tell your mother but from then on you will sit beside me in silence while I teach your sister."

I had to be very firm with a waiting sister a little while ago. She was playing in the classroom next to the music space but I could see her through an observation window. I had allowed her to play with the dolls' corner but she was noisily spreading the toys all over the place and I knew she would be loth to pack them away. She is only five but she understood my firmness and it hasn't occured since.

Reluctantly, I feel that perhaps you should have said outright to the mother that items were missing immediately after the girls had been there, which reappeared in short order. You wouldn't have to make any further accusations, that allows room for the possibility that there was a misunderstanding, but also removes room for "got away with it" smugness.

Years after similar things happened, I haven't figured out a perfect solution, but rather regret smoothing things over.

One kid who stole son's purse returned it in much the way your pupil's did - he pleaded to come and visit, and within minutes "discovered" the purse on a hard chair in the middle of a room!!! But even without being accused, he obviously felt reluctant to continue the friendship - never saw him again. Sad, but I guess unavoidable - don't know that accusations would have helped, but I think that it would have been difficult to have welcomed him into our home warmly and trustingly again.

In a second case, school asked me to take a (teenage) kid under my wing, without warning me that he was a notorious thief. Previous victims had refused to press charges because they didn't want anybody to know that their kids had any kind of connection with the boy. His family also begged us not to press charges (and given his history, they would have been serious enough for him to go into residential care - in 12 months he'd moved from opportunistic theft of cash from friend's parents to tampering with mail, stealing documents and bank cards, stealing and selling items). What was the end result? He was a little crestfallen for a month or two, but once he realized that he faced no consequences, the taste for easy money returned - he left school declaring that the world was his treasure chest, and he was out to take what he could... I don't know how he could have been helped, but turning a blind eye was obviously not useful.

Hope you find a suitable resolution to the situation!

I wouldn't be very impressed by this behaviour at all and I think you have a right to feel cross!



I regard having another sibling sitting in as a kind of 'babysitting service' and will usually try to find an alternative arrangement. That's not to say I never do it - but I'm reluctant to agree on a regular basis - and certainly where one of the children is under 9 or 10. For various reasons it is not ideal, and it needs to be regarded as a bonus, and not something to be taken advantage of.

I do think mum needs to come back to you before you see the girls again - I would want a review of arrangements I think and I would take a dim view if they just turn up next time without a mention.

(Takes off GOW hat)

Hope you can sort this amicably tasha t - but I think you need to feel confident that your message has got across. Is it possible for them to come one at a time? if this would be inconvenient for mum, it is in her interest to keep you happy after all !

Also, sometimes I'm a bit surprised and disappointed and how parents react to hearing about their children behaving badly....

I know everyone deals with things differently but I can imagine what my mum's reaction would have been, and it would have been much stronger that "I'll have a word"...

Most likely she would have hung up the phone, ran upstairs, dragged us down by the arm/hair, marched us round to the teacher's house to apologise and quite possibily not let us go back to lessons at all

I remember having an argument with my sister when we were little over a Beano comic and who got to read it first. After two minutes mum came in, said nothing, grabbed the comic and set fire to it with her lighter

She just said "There, now no one has a comic" and walked out again

Some folk seem almost afraid to tell their kids off, and I think rifling round your teacher's sutff merits more than just "a word..."

Wow, thanks for all your support and suggestions.

I agree that I should be more assertive and I must lay down ground rules more strictly. The desk is behind the piano so is technically out of eyeshot but I love the suggestion of a chair on its own in the hall. Unfortunately this would give pleasure to the students concerned as I have two dogs which they love who can roam around there, and my own little girl loves a chat!! I may have to put a chair for the waiting child next to the piano and see if that works. It would be hard for the mother to keep coming back but if the situation carries on I will have to insist on this or lose the students. I do feel quite uncomfortable now abut the whole thing.

Many thanks all

Tasha

Like a few of the others, I teach several pairs of siblings back to back and they stay in my music room. Rules were put in place at the outset, homework or a book is brought in, and I also keep pencils and paper at the ready. A cork notice board is used to display 'musical posters' that they produce while waiting and has become quite popular!

The only experience I have had of a 'magpie' pupil was a 12 year old girl who started slipping music into her bag. After a few weeks I realised that it was always after xxx's lesson that something went missing. At the end of the next lesson I deliberately kept one of her piano parts out until she had started packing up her flute. A quick 'I'll put this in your music case while you pack up', followed by 'Oh dear, look what you've put in your music case by mistake!' put an end to the problem.

I once had a magpie mother - as she travelled a fair distance, I let her sit in the room next door while her daughter was having her lesson. Not only did she start putting used cigarette butts down the side of the sofa! but I also noticed small but significant things going missing - culminating in the stylus being removed from my trusty old LP turntable!

Having said that, I now have a 6 year old who behaves impeccably while waiting in the same room as her sister during their lessons - while Dad makes a trip to the supermarket with the 2 year old. Or, weather permitting, she sits and draws/birdwatches in the garden.

I would feel inclined to just say that you feel unable to have the sibling in the room while the other child has her lesson.

And I agree with ad_lib - my mum's reaction would have been just a tad stronger than 'I'll have a word', too...why are parents SO reluctant these days to tell a child firmly 'NO'????

*keeps GOW hat on*

I could have hugged one mother once when she told her child off for being naughty in public, and instead of getting into endless rational explanations as some parents do, all she said very firmly when the child asked the first "why" was - "because I'm your mother and I say so" Result - child behaved with no further fuss.

Letting kids do what they want does them no favors at all. My Dad had me over his knee a few times when I was younger; and for much less serious things than stealing! It hasn't done me any harm, in fact its done me a lot of good because I now know the difference between right and wrong, something that seems to have got lost in translation with a lot of the people in my year.

I agree, but it may well be that the mother was embarrassed by her child's behaviour and had every intention of telling off her daughters properly as soon as she got off the phone, but didn't want to show her feelings in front of Tasha T. I know that's the sort of reaction my mother would have had (not that I would ever have done anything like that!), and it wouldn't have meant that she didn't have stern words later.

I have a pupil who once borrowed a book without asking whilst waiting in my living room. I know exactly why - it was ever so slightly racey (although was specifically about young teenagers, so was actually very appropriate for her age group) so she would have been too shy to ask. The only problem was I had to return it to the library and thought I'd lost it until it mysteriously reappeared!

I'm obviously not condoning 'nicking stuff', but many children are naturally inquisitive (and not just children!) so I always make sure there's nothing lying around that I wouldn't want people to see.

Just a thought - does your desk have a lock?

sadly, no, but it might have a rather large table cloth draped to the floor over it next time!

I remember once (I will never forget ) two siblings doing their homework in the lounge whilst the 3rd had a piano lesson. After the family had left and teaching was finished for the night we sat down to watch a TV programme and couldn't get the TV to come on. Hubby was becoming more and more irate and there was talk about calling out a TV engineer, when we suddenly twigged that the pupils had been in there earlier. Inspection of the remote revealed the batteries had been turned around so the remote didn't work I phoned the parents immediately and the next day received a letter of apology and a box of chocolates. But since that day we have never allowed anyone access into our private rooms

I think I agree with Cyrilla. I have 2 sets of siblings who come for lessons. The young child in one case is 6 and in the other is 11. In each case once the younger ones have finished their lessons they go out and wait in the car with mum who waits, either because they have to travel quite a distance or because the mum is ecologically minded and doesn't want to use the petrol to do 2 runs from home. The mothers always have something of their own to do, even if it's just reading a magazine.

If that's not possible, could you give the waiting child some theory to do. Back in the dark ages when I was at school, a friend and her sister had piano lessons and while one was waiting for the other, the teacher used to set her some theory to do, even if it was just copying out terms to learn. That might encourage child to ask mother whether she could do something else (like going outside to wait in the car) rather than do the dreaded theory. I remember my friend used to moan about it rather a lot, but I think she knew more theory than me at the time as a result of the enforced theory work!!

I agree!! Mine would have been stronger too!!

Having said that it reminds me of an incident that occurred at dancing a few years ago.

My daughter had a toy toilet with some stuff in it. The dance teacher wanted to borrow it to come out of the backend of a pantomine camel (don't ask). One of the kids stole it before it was used. Several adults checked the box it was in and it wasn't there. Everyone knew it was missing.

Several months later it reappeared someone put it back in the box when my back was turned.

The Teacher and her Mother were there when it was found and we were all stunned. Must have been a parent that put it back on behalf of their little darling.

A toy toilet? The stolen back end of a pantomime camel??? Have I stumbled into a surreality forum by mistake?!

It was the stuff in the toilet that was going to be used for the Camel droppings Shows that some people will steal anything including ######!!

And pray tell just who thought that suitably filled loo a suitable toy for a young lady?

I absolutely agree with this. I had a pair of sisters who came back to back, and it worked because we also did some duet work, but one always brought a book for when the other had their lesson. It worked well, otherwise I would have insisted they came separately. I teach brothers, one of whom sits in the car with parent whilst the other has theirs, apart from, again, duet work. I have one room set aside for teaching, but my private accomodation is just that - private. No exceptions.

Yes, I have decided that I am going to toughen up now. I was doing it as a favour, the siblings do do duets sometimes and I do leave colouring out. As the day dawns ever closer for their next lesson I am getting more anxious and if the mother is not going to call me then I must bite the bullet and call her. Just trying to build up the courage to suggest she keeps the other sibling with her as they have abused my trust.

Tasha

Yes - I think you're absolutely right to put it like this. Just be very calm and professional about it.

Best of luck!

If these children are inclined to be dishonest, it's possible that they'll say "We didn't!" to their mum, in which case she might just be defensive when she speaks to you again. Just something to think about and be prepard for! Rather than simply say, "Yes, they did," which could be a conversation-stopper, it might be worth having your response ready, just in case!

Yes, I would agree with this.

I obviously haven't had this precise situation, but I was really surprised one day when I was speaking to a child after his lesson, with mother present, and I light-heartedly (but with some seriousness in my voice) suggested that he needed to apply himself to his scales more. She was really quick off the mark to his defence, and I really felt that I had been speaking out of turn to suggest that he needed to work harder. [I had previously had most dealings with father, who seemed to be able to see that his son needed to work a bit harder] So do think of an appropriate response and be prepared to stand your ground.

I could tell you a very funny story about that fake stuff but don't want to hijack the thread



That's what I was trying to illustrate with my story. sometimes even when the parent knows that the child has been dishonest, caught wiht the missing item, they don't take responsibility.

good point thanks - I have two days to think up a response then.

I once had a student who took home a brand new eraser from my piano room - I knew he must have taken it because it was on the table near the piano during his lesson and wasn't there after he'd left. I phoned his mum and asked if he'd taken it home 'by mistake'. She said she would ask him and ten minutes later they were both at my door with the eraser and mum stood by while son apologised. It could have been an embarassing situation, but the mum's response was spot on, I felt.

I quite often accidentally pinch my pupils' pencils and things. My own children raid the piano room when they need a pencil or something, so I end up with none left and have to ask the pupils to borrow theirs, and end up forgetting to give them back. One mum, whose child kept losing his pencils to me (and ultimately to my kids...) gave me a bundle of pencils, pens, a sharpener and a rubber last Christmas, all wrapped up in red ribbon, and stays for a while every few weeks to sharpen them all for me.

Yes my family pinch pens as well. I wouldn't be too concerned about a pupil going home with something like that, as at the end of the lesson it can easily happen that things they have been using for theory get swept into their folder.

One of my grade 1 pupils accidentally put the grade 8 sightreading book into her bag one day. You know those AB purple ones that all look the same?! I must have had it sitting on the table for someone else.

To her credit she brought it back the following week but had obviously been studying with fascination and had worked out a couple of bars here and there

What - you've only sworn once in your entire life???

Why is that surprising? Just because it seems to be commonplace now doesn't mean there are some people who won't swear for whatever reason.

Pencils/pens are fair game at my school. Kids are forever walking off with any pen a teacher lends to them...

Don't you think this the original post was a bit of an overreaction? Children twiddle and fiddle when they're bored; it doesn't mean they're thieves! And unless they're brought up by parents who blatantly lie, cheat and steal themselves and make no attempt to hide it from their children, most children have an innate sense of honesty and fairness. The fact that the children attempted to hide what they took down the sofa later on shows they felt guilty about doing it and were trying to put it right.

The best thing is just not to put that kind of temptation in their way; I'm quite certain that almost any child would have start peering into those drawers out of boredom/twiddliness/curiosity. Children are naturally curious after all and so they should be.

I came home with a pencil from one of my schools the other day; I'll put it back next time I go there but the fact is, I absent-mindedly picked it up when one of mine wasn't immediately to hand, probably because one of my students had probably absent-mindedly put my pencil in his pencil case and gone off with it! Then the school pencil ended up in my pencil case and so it goes on.

Anyway - solution: remove the temptation by putting locks on the drawers, or tell the mum you'd rather the kids didn't hang around there any more. But show a bit of understanding - twiddling and fiddling is what most kids do when they're bored.

It's surprising because it's a natural instinct to utter expletives when things go wrong. Some people say 'sugar', which is a euphenism for a particular swear word. My mother used to say a 'b' word when things went wrong, and still does even though she was very well brought up and is now 88.

I do agree that if we can manage not to swear in front of children we can manage to curb ourselves the rest of the time, but perhaps it can also be a healthy release of tension?

I was at the house of a two teenage pupils and their parents the other night for a social occasion; the kids are 14 and 16 and unbelievably delightful, both of them undoubtedly destined for great things. The father swore as a matter of course on several occasions; the kids didn't bat an eyelid yet they rarely swear. He's a great, very involved dad who disusses anything and everything under the sun with his children.

I don't believe occasional swearing has anything to do with character - you could be an occasional swearer and also be a very good person; you could be someone who never swears yet be a secret serial killer! In the end it's down to personal choice but I instinctively react against people who in my view are overly intolerant of swearing.

Or perhaps I'm just a hopeless degenerate!

I don't swear as a matter of choice, it is possible! But I've learnt to ignore people around me swearing, unless every other word has 4 letters, which kind of negates the point of swearing. I guess it is better than locking up the frustration, but it shouldn't be routine, I don't think.

Takes one to know one, perhaps?

Darn!

And there was me, thinking I'd kept that hidden all these years...

Well lets say I'm glad you're human after all.

And I'm not!?

I agree - it seemed a bit different from accidentally walking off with someone else's pencil.
And also - if my impression is correct - had been taking place over several weeks?

Thank you maggie and dcmbarton, I don't think I have over-reacted but I don't want things to get worse. I don't let my children rifle through other people's things but if I found out that they did they would be made to return the items immediately and write a letter of apology at the very least. Yes maggiemay, it has been going on a little while now and I should have nipped it in the bud sooner but last week was the first time I could be really sure. I am sure they felt guilty which is why the items were 'found'. It is not the cost or even the items themselves which has upset me, it is the principle that I am trying to help the family by having the siblings together and this is what happens. I now have to put locks on my desk and remember to remove other items before their lesson each week now.

thaks for your support,

Tasha