http://www.ism.org/publications/journal/mj...8/feature1.html

Most of this applies to me, actually. Except that I do tend to play from memory and forget the details of the written notation, which apparently is what kids do.

I think you would find quite a number of them amongst our forums friends.

She doesn't describe adult learners as "perfect". In fact she describes a number of characteristics typical of adult learners which some teachers might regard as disadvantages. What she does say is that we are well motivated, which is self-evidently true. Why else would we bother?

Depends what you want to find in an adult learner.
Yes, I have my life to lead, and can't commit to regular lessons, but I practise - properly - and am far more motivated to learn than I was as a child. I'm also more musical, having listened to a lot of music, and know what I like to play. I'll have opinions too, and will not waste my time learning stuff which won't give me pleasure or teach me what I want and need to know, but then I've also had wonderful teachers who have been flexible enough to be able to accommodate that, and have helped me to realise potential I never knew I had.

Let's hear it for the process of teaching adult learners, and the adult learners themselves .

You'll find them just as easily as you will the 'perfect teacher'.

Neither are ever late for lessons. Both are always cheerful and full of energy and enthusiasm. The adult learner always remembers the correct books and the teacher never forgets what they did last week.

Then the lesson finishes and the perfect teacher offers the perfect adult learner a cup of tea which they drink seated on the veranda, watching the sun set over the golden fields of corn, listening to the sound of happy children playing in the nursery. Then the perfect adult learner walks slowly home, a smile on their face, and with the theme music from 'Little House on the Prairie' in the background.



Steve

Rather one-sided being aimed at the 'older' adult learner I thought. Adult learner might also be a 21 year old who isn't arthritic and could, with a lot of hard work, be good enough to forge a career in educational music.

The current glut of seniors with cash to spare is not long term. By the time the likes of me reach their age, it will consist of a largely penniless and possibly in debt population.

EDIT. I also didn't like the bit that suggested older people don't remember things. The brain is a mental muscle, develop it and then use it. I've met plenty of people in their 70s and even 80s who've got excellent memories and have kept using their brain to learn and retain new information.

Interested in what you have to say, anacrusis, and have had similar experiences. I am intrigued by the idea of becoming more musical - I thought 'being musical' was a gift/talent (or a gene) - can it be improved?

Yes, it can. Life experiences help you understand the music better and enables the ability to put more emotional thought into your playing.

This is one of the reasons why all musicians mature 'musically'. If a young professional soloist makes a recording of a work in their early twenties and then revisits it in their mid-forties with another recording, the later one will have a depth of emotion and feeling in the music that they could not have attained in their younger years.

Likewise, you hear of many soloists not tackling certain works until later in their career. They feel the works require a musicality or an understanding that they haven't yet developed.

I think you'll find a similar vein of development thought amongst classical ballet dancers and even the acting profession.

I think this is one of the key differences between adult learners and children: I know a few adult learners who treat instrumental learning not as learning per se but as another hobby like solving crosswords (once they're reasonably good enough to enjoy it, who cares whether they solve it by lunchtime, next day, within the week, or never; they merely look forward to the next one). As a result, some adult learners simply want to learn purely for the enjoyment of it -- maybe playing a few tunes at home, filling the time, or even merely going to lessons, etc. Of course, not all adult learners are like that, but I think it is important that teachers do recognise this category of learners and not simply give up on them as unmotivated or even hopeless simply because they care less about making progress than enjoying themselves. Self-motivation does not always have to mean practicing to perfection and achieving certain standards/ progress (and within so and so timeframe); for some, motivation can simply equal keep going...

The article seems to mention: "The detail and polish we require from students preparing a piece for an examination might not be appropriate for an adult learning for pleasure. Lehmann & Papoušek (2003) suggest that the traditional ‘mastery-oriented’ teachers might well have to readjust their approach for adult students with low performance goals."

Having said all these, I don't have this attitude towards learning an instrument and I quite disagree with the above; just because I don't want to take exams doesn’t mean I have low standards!

One problem I've come across with adult beginners is that they can underestimate what is involved in making progress. Some that I've had I'd describe as people who would like to play but not enough to put in the effort needed to do so.

I had one gentleman who was exactly as Panthera describes and tailored lessons to suit his needs.
He quite quickly cracked the 'code' of printed music and was able to work things out for himself.
He stayed with me for a couple of years by which time he knew enough for what he wanted to do. I did say that if he wanted the occasional lesson to go through somethings that would be fine.

I disagree with this too. Why would someone want to be allowed to play in a sloppy way just because they are an adult learner



Sounds like my Mum!

And both of my daughters, though they realised this for themselves by the time they were in their teens.

Exactly. Since no adult is forced to have music lessons, those who do it must do it because they are motivated by something. It's true that their motives do not necessarily include a deep love of music. One could argue about whether someone who doesn't like music very much, but learns it anyway for other reasons, can properly be described as "self-motivated"; but let's not argue about words. My point is that all adult learners are, by definition, sufficiently committed (to use a different word) to get over the quite considerable hurdle of starting to take lessons at all. If I were a music teacher I would regard that as a major plus.

I misunderstood David's first post as implying that he doesn't come across adult learners who are motivated by a love of music. His second post makes it clear that most of his adult pupils do fall into this category, which is as one would expect.

The last paragraph sums it up really

"Adults, like children, are individuals and bring to the lesson their own abilities, preferences and personalities."

You can't generalise - everyone is an individual with different needs, whatever their age.

"Adults are more likely to cling mentally to the score than children. Often our younger students frustrate us because they memorise their music and consequently are unaware of performance instructions or of mistakes that have crept in. This is less likely to happen with adult students. One reason might be that, as we get older, we rely more and more on the written word in our day-to-day living – we write lists and read instructions. Furthermore, adults are less confident of the reliability of their memory and although they’ll use some aural memory as they replay pieces there is often little use of kinaesthetic and visual memories. Consequently, although adults who cling to the music will be aware of many of the details of a piece, they will find it more difficult to play pieces with much speed or fluency as the notation has to be reread each time."

This is the exact opposite of my own experience! When I was a child I clung to the score like grim death, whereas as an adult I've found that I can memorise huge chunks, and use the score more as a security blanket in case I forget what I'm doing. I have found that I can play whole pieces by memory, which I certainly couldn't do as a child.

"If we treat them with respect, if we are sensitive to their feelings and their needs and if we select material for them from which they get pleasure, our adult learners will continue to gain enjoyment and a sense of achievement through their playing for many years to come."

I wouldn't have thought this was specifically relevant to adult learners (or even music students).

I would have liked to have seen the article at least mention the difficulty that many adults have finding practise time in which they can truly concentrate on their music. In my experience of teaching adults this is the most common difficulty they face.

Yes, I agree, for many adults this seems to be main difficulty. Not just those who are holding down a full time job either.

Even for people who are retired or who work part time ... pressure from needy or demanding family members can be a serious obstacle.

The detail and polish we require from students preparing a piece for an examination might not be appropriate for an adult learning for pleasure. Lehmann & Papoušek (2003) suggest that the traditional ‘mastery-oriented’ teachers might well have to readjust their approach for adult students with low performance goals. Of course we still need to encourage our adult students to observe the details of a piece. Adding dynamics, articulation and phrasing will bring out character and style and add to the player’s enjoyment. However, we also need to be aware of when students’ interest in a particular piece might have flagged, since playing many pieces ‘quite well’ may give more pleasure than aiming for perfection in one.

I found this passage a little condescending. The phrase, "Our adult students", could be substituted with "Our sub-normal students", and we'd still get the sense of the passage.


The top paragraph illustrates how we need to look at EVERY student as an individual, not just those in the pigeon-hole labelled ADULTS.

That was a very interesting article, there were lots of things I'd noticed in adult learners but hadn't thought about specifically.

Does anyone get the adult student who doesn't know how much they don't know? I have had a few (they haven't lasted long with me!) who will tell me what they need to work like it's something they are capable of but just aren't doing it yet. Anything outside of this seems to be ignored when I suggest it (fingering, rhythm even pitch!).

Yes - I get this from time to time. One stays in my mind - a lady who had one lesson with me a few years ago, who wanted to do grade 8. She'd had various lessons with other teachers, and didn't seem satisfied with any of them. She had the grade 8 music, and played through a couple of her pieces - and almost without exception the mistakes she made and the points that needed attention were already ringed and indicated in her music by previous teachers.

She didn't seem to take on board that all these things had not been put right. I was relieved not to hear from her again if truth be told!

*applause*



I've come across adult students who think exactly that way, unfortunately, but I am not sure they are the norm.


Well said, Jane!

As regards adults "not knowing what they don't know", in some cases I think it can just be that people honestly don't know what learning an instrument entails. I have a friend (and a PhD holding, sensible, intelligent friend at that) who told me he fancied learning the piano, and wasn't bothered about getting good but would like to learn "something simple like the Moonlight Sonata" *grin* He has almost no experience musically, so he just didn't know that "something simple like the Moonlight Sonata" was likely to require a lot more of him than he imagined from listening to it without understanding.

Definately.
I neither work full time nor have children still at home but there are times when it's obvious that my family see my practice time as an option rather than a necessity even though they are used to it.
I don't think my husband really gets it that I DON'T want full days out, I want at least half the day at home to put in my practice, preferably the morning as I concentrate better if it's the first thing i do after breakfast.

Personally I thought the entire article was rather patronising.


You'd be surprised how difficult it is even for professional musicians to find the time to practice.

Many think that playing all the time equates to practice, it doesn't, they are two very different things. Without proper constructive private practice, even the best players skills will suffer.

Having said that, I'm sure even my mother inwardly questions why I have to put in 'practice'.

Speaking as an adult learner, I didn't: I thought it was realistic. Of course adult learners tend to set their sights lower than people who have been learning since they were 6. I do more practice than most children do, but I know I'll never be as good as the children will (if they keep it up). That doesn't necessarily have to affect the way my teacher teaches me, but it's a fact that s/he needs to bear in mind.

Not necessarily. Look at Katyjay. Ok, she had a natural talent for singing and sung as a child, but she didn't return to it properly until the age of 35, initially taking her Grade 5. Now look where she is! LTCL and being offered professional employment as a soprano.

Yes on the whole, adults will do more practice than children, but not always, because life gets in the way. Additionally, each adult has a different ambition. I know of another forumite whose teacher has had a bit of wager (with other teachers), that this person could possibly make it as a professional. This has been based purely on their progress so far, their ambition and number of hours practice a day.

Too many adults talk themselves into being no good at things before they've even started. It begins with parental programming as a child, the old urban myth that if you don't learn it then, you never will. I have one thing to say to that. COBBLERS!! I thought the article was patronising because it reinforced the 'low achiever' way of thinking.

If you want to do something enough and you are both physically and mentally able to do so, then it's never to late to start. You'd be surprised how much better adults can be, once they stop beating themselves up over it.

The problem I've had with finding myself a teacher for double reeds, is finding a specialist who's prepared to take on a fast learning adult. No disprespect to peri teachers, but some of them teach far too many instruments and usually, double reeds are the ones they know the least about. However, many specialist teachers who also perform professionally, just aren't prepared to take on someone who they would view as a beginner, even if you are competent/professional on another instrument and could probably play a Grade 2-3 piece on the new instrument (bassoon in my case) within the first two lessons.

I never pigeon-hole an adult pupil on the violin/viola. I let them find their own ground and then gently push them beyond their comfort zone so slowly and carefully, that they just won't realise it.

I did say "tend to". Naturally there are exceptions. Besides, I don't think the article is really talking about people who started learning music when they were children. "Initially taking her Grade 5" is a bit telling!

Maybe there are two different factors at work here? On the one hand, isn't it true that the physical business of getting your fingers etc into the right places is easier if you start doing it when you're young and flexible? Look at that poll recently about the widest interval that people can reach on the piano! I'm quite sure I could stretch more than an octave if I had been learning since I was a small child. You don't need to stretch more than an octave, most of the time, but it sure would help.

Then there is the separate point that some adults just aren't all that interested in becoming really good musicians - it's just a hobby. That may be equally true of children, of course, though they may also be doing it because they're told to. And I imagine it's more likely to be true of the adults who go to evening classes than those who have private lessons, because evening classes are so much cheaper.

The trouble with articles like this is that enevitably the author has to generalise in order to put their point across. There are plenty of adult learners who don't fit into the pattern described in this article, and of course others that do.

I play for fun, but also want to play to the best of my ability, so expect that my teacher points out my errors and tries to get me to improve. I don't think that I am capable of becoming a really good musician, but at the same time I do want to learn more about music for my own pleasure. I expect my piano teacher to treat me the same as her child pupils.

Some adult learners do go in at higher grades. They prefer to, rather than take Grade 1.

If I played the piano, I'd be a rubbish pianist whatever age I'd started at. I've got really tiny hands, probably somewhere around the same size as an average 10 year old child. With the best will in the world, my teeny weeny digits would never have reached more than an octave stretch - and I really do mean 'stretch'. Additionally, children don't always posess co-ordination, even if their hands are very flexible. Some children don't even have very flexible fingers - flexibility to some extent is partly down to your genes, how your joints are formed.

One would hope that if you are going to spend money on lessons of any kind, you have enough interest to be reasonably competent at what you are playing. Just 'messing around', at anything, is not very satisfying, is it?!

Which is precisely why I don't teach my adults anything less than the same skills I try to impart on my child pupils. I just teach it in a different way. An adult who wants to learn is far more satisfying and interesting to teach than someone who just comes along for a lesson and treats it as nothing more than a bit of a 'social'.

Structure in learning (at any age) is essential. Regrettably, this is something which is frequently lacking in many adult music lessons, which could also lead to the student believing they really aren't any good.

Chance would be a fine thing! I've been playing for nearly two years, and Grade 5 still looks like a remote possibility. People who can jump in at Grade 5 are really not what this is about.


Yes, but do you think you'd be able to play a full-size violin (never mind a viola!) if you hadn't started playing any instrument until you were an adult?

A professional musician will have been learning for perhaps 15-20 years before starting to earn. That leaves plenty of time for a youngish adult to become a professional musician before they hit 40. How many professional musicians do you know who started learning after they were 15, or even 10? If not many, why do you think that is? That's not a rhetorical question - I'd really like to know. If I really am just as likely to reach diploma standard as a 6-year-old who started playing at 4, it would be encouraging to know that. At present I'm a bit sceptical.

I entirely agree. I don't have much sympathy with the "hobby" attitude. I want to play well, and I do loads of practice. I just don't have much confidence that it will ever pay off.

Tell me about it!

People who play woodwind and brass instruments don't usually start until they are about 10 or 11.

Having watched my own children learn (starting at 6 1/2 for one and 7 1/2 for the other) I think it is easy to underestimate how complicated it is for them. They have a short attention span, can't project into the future, have poor physical co-ordination, don't always have enough physical strength, lack the mathematical abstraction to understand rhythm by reading it (although they can copy it orally)...

It does happen with students of all ages though.

It really does depend a lot on the instrument. I started flute lessons at 14. Had Grade 8 with distinction by the time I was 17. Have been a professional for the last 8 years after a reasonable gap whilst doing other things and bringing up children. Mostly teaching, but increasing amounts of performing.

Same here!

Was flute your first instrument??

It will!

Apart from a brief fling with the clarinet at age 11 (lasted six months, got thrown out of lessons), and a few recorder lessons in junior school, yes.

I'm by no means a professional nor close to it, but my brother asked me some time ago why I still needed piano lessons (my worst instrument by a country mile) - far as he was concerned (and he's a reasonably intelligent man in his mid 30s...) I've "learned" the piano...


I'm pretty sure that things like how far you can stretch owe to a great many factors as well as "how long have you been playing". I don't have especially small hands, started the piano aged about 10, and have played the violin and other instruments requiring dexterity of the hands and fingers since the age of 7. I still can only just stretch an octave on the piano...

Yes, because the stretches on either of those instruments are still small compared to a piano keyboard and the spaces between the notes on a violin or viola fingerboard are not equi-distant either. Most music for string instruments requires the sounding of only one note at a time, not entire bunches of them all at the same time. Even with double, tripe or quadruple stopping, there is just a fraction of a second to re-adjust fingers on the higher strings before sounding the note.

Intervals on the violin, or viola rarely span more than than a 9th - with the exception of Paganini who wrote some unisons and some 10ths. Pianistic chords are monumental. For example, I certainly couldn't play a chord that consisted of an octave plus another two, or even three notes. Even with flexible hands, my fingers are not long enough to physically reach the keys.

As for age and whether you can start an instrument late and still make it as a professional. Well, there are always exceptions to the rule. However, one could argue about how much is prejudice and how much is down to the time it takes to learn the skills required. Medical schools won't take anyone over about the age of 30, because they deem it will take a student far too long to attain the skills required to become a good doctor or surgeon. This may also be the pattern of thought with musicians.... unless you are going to spend your life as a student and never earn any money.

Suppose you (AmandaL, or any other teacher of an instrument) have two new pupils. Both are beginners and have no previous knowledge of music. One is 5, the other 50. The older one has the same physique that the child will have when s/he grows up. Both are healthy (i.e. the older one doesn't have arthritis etc). Assuming that they each do the same amount of practice and follow your instructions, do you think there is any reason to suppose that one of them will play better than the other in (say) 5 or 10 years' time? I would expect the child to progress faster, but I don't know whether that's just prejudice.

I wonder whether the ABRSM and other boards have, and if so whether they publish, statistics about the ages of pupils achieving the different grades? I'd be surprised if there were many people getting Grade 8 after the age of (say) 30. But again that may be prejudice. I'd really like to know.

Well, off the top of my head I can think of three people on these forums, apart from me, who got a grade 8 well after the age of 30.

My first was at 36, my second at 40 and my third I'm waiting for a result but am reasonably confident of getting it.....

And, for the record, I was staggered when my singing teacher suggested I should start exams with grade 8. I'd imagined he'd put me in for grade 1, and that we'd eventually get to grade 5 (which was my dream when I started lessons). I actually did grade 5 first, as a compromise 'cos I was scared of the whole idea of grade 8.

Not sure but given those circumstances I'd expect that the adult would get off to a quicker start as he/she would be able to take more in at once. With adult beginners on piano I can usually introduce 5 notes in each hand almost from the start.

My experience (admittedly limited) of my children and the children of friends is that you are starting with a false assumption (I assume you are not talking about a child prodigy of which I have no experience).

A normal 5 year old would not be able to cope with a 30 minute lesson to start with, whereas a normal 50 year old should be able to concentrate for 30 minutes.

Concentration span will also influence the amount of time they practise and the 5 year old is also likely to need an adult to help with the practise (and probably even to read what's written in the practice notebook to be able to follow instructions).

5 year olds can't project themselves into the future. If you tell the 50 year old if they practice *this* for a year they will be able to play *this* then they know what you mean and will stick to it (you said they were following instructions ), a 5 year old will get bored with doing the same thing and won't.

5 year olds are not good at following complicated instructions, nor are they good at remembering things the following day, since they are not good at reading either a 50 year old is likely to follow the instructions more precisely than the 5 year old.

To be able to read the notes it helps to be familiar with the alphabet (5 year olds are not necessarily).

To be able to read the rhythm you need to be able to understand the concept of halving and halving again (something which is complicated for the average 5 year old but not for the average 50 year old).

In 5 years time the 5 year old will only be 10 (and starting to get all the desirable qualities listed above). I think in the first 5 years the adult would progress faster.

I'm not so sure about the following 5 years since teenagers can get quite obsessive about things and if music practice is one of them then they could conceivably devote longer hours to practising than an adult who also has a job, a family to look after etc. But then on the other hand, the 50 year old will be 55 and so presumably no longer has young children and may even be looking at early retirement.

But that doesn't necessary mean they cannot acheive such playing standards; many adult learners simply don't care for exams. If, as you said, a child and an adult puts in exactly the same amount of work, then I don't see why the child should progress faster.

Well, as I said earlier, people who learn as children and return as adults are rather different (especially if they are Grade 8 standard when they return!). How many adult beginners get to Grade 8, or get to Grade 8 standard without bothering to take the exam? These forums seem to be full of children who race through the first few grades in a matter of months, often on several different instruments. All the adult learners I know (including me) can barely manage one grade a year, on one instrument.

Would you agree at least that there is a widespread perception that it's harder for an adult beginner to learn an instrument? Where does that perception come from, I wonder, if it has no basis in fact?

My piano teacher has an adult student who bought himself a piano, having never played before (or anything else as far as I'm aware) in 2000. He passed Grades 1-7 in more-or-less successive terms, passed Grade 8 two years ago, and has taken a Teaching Dip (although I think he's having to retake one section).

I'm not sure that the forums necesarily give an accurate picture of music learning as a whole. I'm sure all the teachers on here could give you examples of children who "can barely manage one grade a year on one instrument." Most ten year olds do not have grade 5.

I've not had one yet who has raced through grades.
I have one 11 year old who is a long way from grade one after more than 2 years.

Even if that information was available it would be meaningless, there are too many complicating and confounding factors.

I am confused by this. Are you trying to convince yourself and the rest of us that it is pointless to work hard at piano, or any instrument, beyond a certain age ... that is if you are not already a professional. I just don't get it.

Obviously a 5 year old beginner has greater potential than a 50 year old - they have an extra 45 years in which to develop it. And I think the evidence is quite strong that piano skills in particular are more deeply assimilated the younger you start. But very few people get anywhere near their potential - even if they start very young. I believe that you can start as an adult, and still become very very good.

I can't offer my own experience as typical, because I worked fairly hard at piano from the time I started aged almost 13, and passed grade 8 after a little over 4 years. And in the intervening 30-odd years I have had periods of several years where I either studied hard or played regularly. So I am one of those returners that was already pretty good as a teenager.

But I have never in my life worked as hard at anything as, for the last year, I have worked at mastering the piano. I thought I had worked hard at various things - but I was wrong. I did not know how to study and practice properly, and I did not invest sufficient effort and time. And I can tell you that at over 50 I am improving literally 10x faster than I was at 15. It is not huge natural talent. I think I am a bit above average in musical talent - whatever it might be, and general intelligence - but no great genius. It is just work - like good teachers have always said. Our culture does not encourage it. It promotes instant gratification. But hard work, well directed, is an astonishingly powerful thing. What is more it is very, very satisfying to see an improvement, and know that it is well deserved.

Let's consider, what are the factors that contribute to your ultimate skill as a pianist?

Genetic endowment - not much you can do about that
Experiences and stimulation as an infant - nor that
Childhood musical experience - nor that!
The sum of all your experiences, knowledge and training to date - all in the past!

So if you want to be a good pianist all you have to make it happen now and in the future:

What can you do?

• Study MUSIC
• Learn to practice correctly
• Practice with a ferocity and intensity of concentration that you have never applied to anything before
• And if you can manage it, try to build up to 3 or 4 hours of such practice every day (but never less than one).

I say stop looking for statistics and examples that "prove" older learners have a hard time. Get a top-class teacher (if you don't already have one) and get stuck in.

Sorry, Mad Tom. I'm only truncating your post because it's a long one.

But it's absolutely on the nail

I too have worked harder in the last five years than in all the years preceding it - and in that preceding time I managed to build a fairly serious career and end up as a Finance Director!

I never imagined when I went for my first singing lesson that I'd end up changing direction and becoming a full-time musician, I was simply looking to improve my abilities at my favourite hobby. But I was fortunate enough to go to a teacher who encouraged me way beyond what I believed I could do, and who continues to push me nowadays. He knows how old I am, but it isn't an issue in the way he teaches me - I've heard him teach people 20 years younger than me and 20 years older, and he teaches them exactly the same way as he does me.

As I would have thought my posts made clear, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything (except perhaps that many adult learners do in fact have fairly low expectations, which is undeniably true). I'm trying to find out, from people who know more about it than I do, whether it's right to assume (as I believe most people do) that people who learned music as children stand a better chance of achieving a high standard than people who start in adulthood. If that assumption is wrong then no-one will be more pleased than I, and many of the responses suggest that it is wrong. Even if it's right, I plan to go on devoting most of my spare time to the viola anyway.

Easier said than done, unfortunately.