I read from time to time here of how such-and-such a person has passed a certain grade but is , of course, of diploma standard etc. Well they may well be but without the exam to prove it who is to be the judge? In music as with many other professions paper qualifications do count, and they do show that certain levels have been reached. Exams are there for a purpose so use them to show what standard someone else who really knows thinks you are!

I think it all depends. If you are looking for a teacher then having a qualifications may be a helpful indication of the standards reached, but for a performer I don't think it matters: you either play well or you don't.

I passed a piano diploma just after I left school but didn't go into music as a career and I doubt whether I would be diploma standard now.

I've been working as a professional player, as well as a teacher, since college - have a degree in music, but not a diploma. I have never been asked if I am of 'diploma standard' though I would consider myself to be beyond that. I am mainly booked on reputation and prefer the classification of 'musician'. The only time I have ever been asked about qualifications was when applying for my first mortgage and the fact that I had a degree helped - a performance diploma might of actually been a hindrance! In my experience parents often like to exaggerate their child's ability with the 'he's taking grade x to get a good mark, but is actually grade y standard' but I take this with a pinch of salt. Quite often a child comes to me having taken a certain grade and I would class them as one or two grades below that.

I have a grade 8 distinction on the piano, but have been working, half as an accompanist and half as a piano teacher, for the last 15 years. I also took a good couple of years of post grade 8 lessons (though that was a long time ago now).
Without wishing to sound big-headed, (moi? surely not ) I am a most excellent sight-reader and accompanist. I have no diplomas nor a degree in music and frankly why would I waste my time and money taking one? In all those 15 years, not one person has asked me what my qualifications are - I am just Carol that plays the piano
(Plus I am far too lazy to take any more exams )

The proof is in the playing.......Which all music colleges , universities, orchestras etc well recognise. Can you imagine someone ever approaching Du Pre after the Elgar and saying...'Well y'know. That's all well and good. But I need to see your Diploma. Sorry Slava, but no Grade 8 no recital.....

Seems to me (as someone who's only just got around to doing grades!) that the exams are largely motivational ... the most important thing, as everyone has said, is whether you can play (though the grades do pick up on things that people conveniently 'forget' - scales, aural skills, etc.)

There was a recent thread in which someone commented on a pupil who had 'done' the pieces in their book - meaning that they could get to the end while making a more or less recognisable sound. I think there is a tendency to say 'I'm really at grade X' when what this means is that the subject can struggle through a piece or two at that grade - it doesn't mean that they are confident with all the skills required by that grade, or can deliver them reliably. On the first criterion, I am probably at diploma level - I can play some bits of some diploma pieces!

Just play the music - everything else is only there to help.

nick

I didn't realise we were so alike Carol

Having said that, I haven't been teaching as long as you, and am likely not as good a pianist. I'd like to get a diploma though as you say, no one has ever asked me for one, so it would be more for myself really.

Money is a major factor there though. If I get my diploma, I'm not going to suddenly start earning more - and I'll be the same piano teacher I was before I took it, so whether it will make a huge diference to me I don't know.

I don't really tell people what standard I think I am, because I don't really know, so at the minute I'm just a "pianist"... I let other folk decide how good a pianist

I can see the arguments on both sides, that is, no one is going to ask to see the diploma of the likes of du Pre or whoever, but the chances are they went through a Conservatoire (sp?) anyway.

It doesn't only happen in music. All manner of people were expert cake decorators, athletes, leek-growers, scholars 'before they had their accident/spot of bother/saw something nasty in the woodshed etc....' and are no longer in any danger of having to prove their prowess.

I don't know how anyone can claim to be of diploma standard unless they have put themselves through it and know whether they fall to pieces under scrutiny. It's not even the same if you regularly perform if your audience is not particularly critical. Most audiences think anyone is wonderful who plays, because they can't do it themselves - it is a different matter altogether if you are displaying your stuff before an examiner.

In the end it doesn't really matter provided that one is not boasting paper qualifications that are not there, but yes, it can be a bit of an eye -roll moment when yet another person 'bigs' themself up.

Mel

Who is to be the judge? My singing teacher has a choir that accepts only singers of diploma standard. They don't need the actual diplomas as teacher is well qualified to be the judge.

It's equally annoying when people think they are at a standard or above it when they are not. I really don't see the point in pretending to be something you're not.

I also think as I was trying to say in another thread that having grade 8 in one instrument may not be equal to Grade 8 in another instrument even if it's the same person and the marks are similar. I know theoretically it should be but in practice all sorts of things will influence a persons playing standard.

I don't know alot about diplomas so it may or may not be the case there.

Why is it "annoying" if people think they are at a standard if they are not? The only circumstances where I could imagine it having any effect on your temper would be if you had paid them to play on account of their stated ability, but they hadn't matched it.

Your teacher, perhaps. After all, an exam is also one persons opinion of your playing, indeed a snapshot. Your teacher knows you over a much longer period. I don't have any recorder exams to my name but my teacher thinks I am at least grade 8, and she is among the best recorder teachers in the UK (mentioned her in another thread).

Conversely we all know people who have 'done' grade 8 ie 3 superficially learned pieces, busked scales, iffy sight reading, dire aural and all that.

What has got you thinking this? Are you an unhappy rat now?

Surely if someone is being boastful, they end up only getting egg on their faces when it turns out they are not as good as they say they are? And I also agree that even having a certificate proves very little beyond that someone reached a particular standard on a particular day in the view of one or perhaps two examiners.

I don't particularly care for blatant boasting, but more because of what it says about the person doing it than whether it means they're trying to compare themselves favourably with another musician.

This may, however, come initially from the teacher. When my son was 13/14 age, he had three different clarinet teachers in the space of a year, which resulted in no exams for quite a while (new teachers don't like to enter you until they know your ability).

The following year the third teacher said to us that he was of grade 8 standard, and that she was sure he would pass if entered, but because she wanted him to get a distinction at grade 8 she would prefer him to do grade 7 first. I would not have mentioned this to just anybody, but had he then been given a fourth teacher (which, thankfully, didn't happen), I might well have passed it on to them. This could be one reason for your parents "exaggerating their child's ability", Harmony2.

Hmm, fair point. I guess it doesn't really matter to anyone else - unless you have to play with them! But even then, I've never enquired about the grades of anyone I've played with - it just seems irrelevant.

nick

I might have paid them to teach my child

Perhaps I didn't use the right word as a non-musician it wouldn't really be annoying for me directly.

To answer the original question properly, I don't think it really "gets my goat" particularly when people claim to be a certain standard. If they are being untruthful, they might get caught out, so they take a risk by saying it. I really got past comparing myself to others when I left school. It still does scare me when I see how good some players are, but rather than feel I have to compete, I just try and learn what I can from them. I'm never happier that when I'm playing piano, and that's enough for me! Of course I want to get better and better at it, but I don't want to do it by jumping ahead of myself, and pretending to be something I'm not.

Personally I prefer not to guess at what standard I think I am because I know lots of excellent musicians who are far and above my own standard who would most likely catch me out in a second if I went about claiming to be a diploma standard performer... for one thing, I still have a lot to work on in terms of performance nerves. Professional pianists probably don't shake like a leaf the whole way through a recital, so I don't want to put myself in the position where someone wants to test me

I have managed to get teaching jobs in schools over music degree holders... but I was completely honest about my paper qualifications, didn't claim to be any particular standard, and just did a good enough interview. I can see how some would think that a bit unfair having more on paper than I do, but as long as I haven't lied, I don't feel guilty.


When I'm playing I don't really think about what standard the music is.. I just enjoy myself

My daughter used to come home really frustrated about someone she played with in band, she never asked about their grade but their behaviour (playing rather than social) really annoyed her.

As a parent my childs current standard is less important than the progress she is making. I do support her with exams but try not to think of her as anything more than she's working on at the higher grades the foundations are important.

It just takes me a little longer to decide to get engaged...

Well quite

Just thinking, my mum and dad met and married within 6 months aged 20 & 27 respectively. Had me and my sister within two years.

OK, they are divorced now - but they did managed 23 years


Sorry for going

Yes, sorry petrat - that was my fault!
We did do some proper discussing of your topic too though!

about visibility

The only reason I've done any grade exams is for my own personal satisfaction. The diploma (when I a. take it and b. pass it ) will also be for the same reason.

Val

I know two classical concert pianists that do exactly that - but play marvellously anyway.

I'm not sure whether you're just applying this to diplomas or to grades as well, but as people often tend to skip grades, then giving an estimate of your standard could be more accurate than quoting the last grade you've actually taken. For example, the first grade I did on percussion was grade 8, but I would give an estimation of my standard before then, instead of just saying that I hadn't done any grades which, sad though it is, leaves some people with the idea of incapability. This isn't to say that I claimed I was better than I was, but I would say the approximate grade that my teacher had indicated I was at. Given that teachers only put people in for grades when they believe that they're ready, then I think it must be said that they are adequate judges of standard, even though they're not examiners.

I think it's wrong to say you're at a standard which you're not, but to use an estimate to give others an impression of your level of playing doesn't seem like a problem to me.

Hear, hear!

Why thank you!

She is too!

I suppose that part of the reason for this goat-getting is that a teen booked a couple of lessons from me the other day. She has lessons on the piano from another teacher who has passed grade five!!!!! in her youth but who claims to be of diploma standard now. This pupil played a piece to me the other day with the pedal held down throughout; no pedal changes, just foot to the floor all of the time. I asked her if that was how the teacher had wanted it and she assured me that it was as it was marked con ped. She wanted some help with her work before taking an exam next month. There were no markings in pencil on the copy to suggest that she had forgotten to do pedal changes either. Why do teachers make claims about standards instead of just getting some more lessons and getting some work done to reach a higher standard themselves? Laziness? Money? I don't know but the kids suffer and the parents are taken in by them. Maybe it is worse in this area? Incidentally I had heard this piece played this way before by another pupil of this teacher. She obviously thinks it the correct way to perform it. I sent the piece back very clearly marked with the correct pedalling and a note about what con ped actually meant. Grrrrrr a lot!
It is all very well to say that people will be found out eventually but this woman still gets lots of pupils and parents are taken in by her.

But the other day you were asking people to make assumptions about your student, without giving her chance to defend herself - we only had your side of the story. And it would have been even easier for her to identify herself because you give your real name. Also, your student could approach another teacher in your area, and if she said that her previous teacher was you, it would be easy for the prospective teacher (if a member of this board) to recognise that it was the same student and might be prejudiced against her.

Why is it fair to publicly discuss a student who may be identifiable but not a teacher?

Firstly I don't think it's up to Petrat to police all the Piano Teachers in her area.

Knowing Petrat I wouldn't doubt for one minuite that her judgements are not based on this incident alone and she does quite clearly state that.

The problem is that when people see a small reflection of themselves in a post they become defensive. I know it's easy to do as people have taken out of context things I've said and read into them something that was not intended.

Petrat seems to be in a position to judge this Teacher. The student must have doubts otherwise she wouldn't be looking for help from someone else.

We will all give too much information out, I did recently about my daughter's school, the Music Teacher could easily identify herself (I'm sick of banging my head on a brick wall so am past caring). I suspect that the type of people who are being moaned about don't visit this Forum, because if they did they would be doing things very differently be they Teachers, Parents or Pupils. They wouldn't have to stick around too long to find out they were out of step.

Some Teachers, nothing to do with qualifications, are only in it for the money and that applies equally to Peri's, Private Teachers and School Music Teachers. They won't be the ones looking to improve their existing skills. It's the same as saying no one with grade 7/8 can teach properly and everyone with a diploma or degree can (which we all know is not correct).

If I was a singing teacher in Gloucester and had read your thread about a "female adult student who was up to Grade 6" and I was approached by someone of that description who said she had been "having lessons with dcmbarton for about 2 and a bit years", I would have to be very naive if it didn't cross my mind that this was the same pupil - the one who you have said is "very begrudging about paying" and who "makes you feel guilty for charging what you do". The one who apparently "had an expectation that you would be able to accommodate her request" and who evidently viewed your livelihood as "just a hobby".

So if you think it's all right to potentially identify a student and write negative comments about them, then I can't see why you think it's not all right to do the same about a teacher.

I had a similar experience a few years ago when I inherited a pupil working towards their final school music exam for which the practical element is work 50%. This girl had 'passed' grade eight, but was doing the most amazing fingering (a combination of baroque and mad!) in very difficult pieces by Mendelssohn and such like. She had been with the same teacher since she started music and it was someone who clearly had no idea what they were at. We changed her pieces to be closer to grade 5/6 standard and spent a lot of time fixing technique.

The problem is that there is no policing of music teachers generally. It really is the luck of the draw. Unfortunately parents who are trying to give their child 'the gift of music' but don't play themselves are very vulnerable to cowboys like this.

So true! When they ask questions they are "pushy parents" and frequently told to trust their childs Teacher so can't win either way

Its a tough one alright! I will make more of an effort to be more approachable! If you have nothing to hide (i.e. if you know what you're doing!!!) parents should be able to ask questions.

Yes it is difficult, and many people either feel uncomfortable about asking questions or don't know the right questions to ask in order to properly assess a prospective teacher.

My singing teacher was the only one who's ever *volunteered* information without being asked, and it made me feel reassured and comfortable that I was making the right decision.

always a difficult topic.

To what point do we accept that experience and inspirational skills etc actually stand for more than a piece of paper? If someone can teach and teach well....
We are developing a culture of having to regulate, police, license, everything that goes on here there and everywhere.

If you have an accident somewhere and the ambulance arrives, do you ask to see the driver's licence? Do you expect the Paramedic to bring documentation to prove he is qualified suitably for your case? When you arrive at the hospital, do you want the nurses and doctors to wear their qualifications on their coats?
When your washing machine breaks down, do you ask the repair man for paperwork, certificates etc?
You take your car to be serviced.... and so on.

Absolutely everything has to be proved, and someone has to be responsible and answerable ("not me, of course"!) so we have more and more complex legislation...

Where is faith and trust, where has honesty gone?

Personally I would see a lack of honesty on some people's part as the problem. I would assume a person who managed to get behind the wheel of an ambulance in uniform etc had all the required qualifications. But someone setting themselves up as a music teacher, chiropractor etc etc can just do so with no previous experience. If someone is honest and says "I'm just starting out" "I'm still doing my grades myself" or whatever then the customer/student knows what they are getting into. But it seems people just set up and teach for years without ever trying to improve themselves or their 'product'.

Although I'm wondering if consistently low exam results wouldn't be a hint. I suppose the question is, do they get consistently low marks or do they choose exams/boards that mark more easily? (that is a bit of stream of consciousness apologies if it makes no sense!)

But also, what if they aren't simply dishonest but genuinely not aware of their own limitations? Teachers who don't try to improve are bad enough, but assuming their existing skills were solid then at least no serious damage could be done to the students apart from maybe that they wouldn't progress beyond a certain point in the longer term. I think the real scary ones are those who didn’t realise they were doing anything wrong and passing on all the bad techniques/habits...

Indeed.

Between people with no formal qualifications who are brilliant teachers, people with lots of qualifications who aren't and people who just set up and go for years teaching badly, getting a good teacher really is a lottery.

Scary.

You said:
"I asked whether people generally felt I had done the right thing in that situation. I had to give some background otherwise it would have been impossible to ask."
So unless you gave out the correct information, the answers you got would have been meaningless.

There is nothing in your original thread or this one up to now that gives any indication that the person you were referring to wasn't your actual student, and it seems a little out of synch to now try and have us believe that maybe you had disguised her identity.


And if you believe that that applies to teachers, it applies equally to students, in my opinion.

I don't wish to argue with you though David so if we have to agree to differ, so be it and I'll leave it at that

Try a google search for Ryan Nurse and Isle of Wight - he made it to the odd one out round of Have I got News for you.

It would not be easy to identify this teacher. Anglesey is a large area made up of several towns of decent size and dozens of smaller villages. Many of these have piano teachers of one kind or another, be they someone's aunt starting kids off, the lady next door who plays a bit or the real teachers who make teaching their profession and who work hard at what they do and who kep their standards of playing and teaching up to scratch. If the lady in question does happen to read this then perhaps she will re-think what con ped actually means and do something to put things right. I could phone her but I don't feel like it!
The book had some markings on it but nothing about the pedalling. She did not use a note book from week to week so any directions would not have been written there either. I asked the pupil if she had been told not to use the pedal at all and she was certain about what she had been told and taught. She had failed the exam before and may well do so again which would be a great shame. I have marked the book clearly. She can choose to explain to the teacher that she had sought help or not as she chooses. I am just fed up with so=called teachers pretending to be what they are not, or being to stupid to realise their own shortcomings.

does 'caveat emptor' no longer apply?
Or if everything is centrally controlled, regulated and licensed does that mean everything in the garden is lovely?

I would no sooner phone this teacher to explain her shortcomings than phone a friend's GP to do the same! I would regard that as totally inappropriate. And as to "buyer beware" that is all very well if the buyers know what to look for and to ask about. Many parents will be happy if the teacher is lovely with the children and popular. If they don't get good results a parent might be quicker to blame the child than the teacher.

It's just something that you cannot do. It's not Petrats role anyway or any other Teachers to point our another Teachers weaknesses unless they are working together and their is direct effect.

Not to mention the pupil discussed recently who didn't like any of the suggested repertoire who was identified as having studied at Royal Holloway...

That's why I've always paid over the odds to get teachers approved by our county music provider. I was OK with piano tachers (which the county doesn't provide), as I play quite well myself, so felt able to judge.


Even going through county, teachers vary. We've never had a bad one, but some are much better than others. We have had my son's clarinet teacher for over 5 years now, and she is absolutely fantastic - I couldn't have asked for anyone better. But when my daughter was learning violin, she had one teacher she couldn't stand - he just criticised all the time in a very depressing way - and we had to ask for a change of teacher.