Having already dedicated my life towards civil engineering (I am now 2 years into a Masters of Engineering degree and planning to do Doctor of Engineering degree afterwards) I feel like I'm fighting a lost cause.

I've written newspaper articles (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/student/article1294090.ece) and spent years working towards a scholarship (and win it) which "provides support for some of the most exceptional engineering undergraduates in UK universities". Having passionately explained the incorrect usage of "engineer" to many people, my parents still call standard domestic servicemen "engineers" to my face. GAH!!!!

Do I have the right to feel so incensed by this, or is this an overreaction on my part?

I wouldn't be incensed, personally. There are plenty of words in language that take on more than one meaning depending on the context. Engineer is one of them.

A bit like "tin can" - they're not actually made of tin!

I wouldn't worry too much!

Its the way of the world I fear.
Postmen are called 'Delivery Officers' if you talk to the local sorting office ! I think there a poshed up term also for Dustbin Men also.

[Rant]
I am completely in agreement. I'm an ex (Chartered) Civil Engineer and have always been dismayed by the lack of protection in the UK of the label Engineer. On the continent, everyone knows what an Engineer is and it's not a tradesman. I came across a little quip once: In France if you tell someone you're an engineer you are invited in to meet the daughter, in England you're invited in to meet the washing machine.

In the UK, the Institution of Civil Engineers has done little to advance the status of the profession, whilst architects enjoy great status (apparently they even design bridges these days ). I recall after graduating visiting relatives in Germany and being called "Herr Ingenieur" - and they meant it.

So sadly I can't offer any crumb of comfort. The status of engineers in the UK is towards the bottom of the pile, you have not over-reacted and you stand no chance of changing it.
[/Rant]

I think I can live with that. After all, those plumbers, electricians etc probably have more practical skills than I do, even if they can't calculate a Reynold's number, or know what one is! Perhaps you feel incensed because you feel it devalues the skills you are working hard to gain, but on the same token, remember that practical skills are as important as academic ones. A compliment (even inadvertantly) to a skilled worker, is not necessarily a slight to yourself.

My bigger objection is to the reaction I get when telling ladies of a certain age that I'm studying engineering (I usually drop the 'chemical' bit, it takes too much explanation as to what chemical engineers do else). It runs to anything from "Oh. Oh, well I suppose girls do study things like that, these days." (As if I somehow lack all decorum because I'm an engineering student.) Through "Oh goodness, you must be clever!" (Please don't sound suprised. Or like you expect me to think I'm better than you. Please?) Down to the one that annoys me most: "That sounds terribly boring!" (Thanks. Just... thanks.)

I know I shouldn't take it personally, but... I always thought we lived in an equal society these days? Yet all these intelligent, mature women seem to think I'd be better off studying something else. Its almost enough to make you paranoid that they know something I don't...

It's true that words like engineer and technician are used all the time without anyone being really clear about the difference.

Could you explain? I honestly don't know.

Re. incorrect usage, well, words change over time and there's nothing we can do about it. Use of the word 'gay', the suffixes -phobia, -phile, 'sorted vs sorted out'...etc

Probably hundreds of other examples.

Steve

To extend the argument, even 'Manager' and 'Director' are often used misleadingly.
I note that 'Guards' on trains are now called 'Train Managers' (certainly by Virgin West Coast anyway)

Here's the response from the Government with regards to making "Engineer" a protected title, much like "Architect" is already.

http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page14749.asp

The end of the first paragraph says it all really:
"It would not be practical or appropriate for the Government to attempt to introduce new legislation on this matter"
....um...why inappropriate? They did exactly that with the other professions so why is engineering left out?

It's a bit like people calling themselver recorder teachers when they have but a grade six on the clarinet and have never had a recorder lesson or even been on any recorder playing courses in their lives! If I were an engineer I would be mightily bugged too.

Leading Maizie to once again ponder whether or not to phone the violin, viola, clarinet, saxophone, piano, theory and recorders teacher who has just sprung up in the town that is between home-town and work-town.

Seriously, I am sure 'proper' programmers get annoyed by people like me who have the job title of Programmer/Analyst but really only know a limited amount about a couple of relatively small / specific languages...

Sanitation Engineer!!!

I got annoyed when I told someone I was a nurse for people with Learning Disabilities.

"Not a proper nurse then." was her response!

Not a proper one eh?? Just a nurse with the patience of Jove. Take a lot of no notice Daisy.

She almost needed a "proper" nurse!!!!

Husband MA MIET was one of the 35358 people to sign the petition mentioned by ninmurai earlier.

Tamsin, you're not the only one to encounter the stunned silence when you attempt to explain your field of engineering - try explaining "broadcast research" or "engineering research" to the uninitiated

I tend to agree that engineering is an underated profession. I also laugh rather loudly when I hear about encouraging women into engineering careers.

As a mature (female) student of a B. Eng in "Software engineering for Real-time systems" in the early 1990's I was flabbergasted to find an advert offering sponsorship for women studying an HND in Software Engineering. When I rang them to ask why they didn't offer any help to women studying for a degree there was an embarrassed silence. I have no reason to think that attitudes have changed.

I could also go on about the attitude of some employers around this area to graduates from "gasp" polytechnics!!!! (No don't do! - someone kick the soap box out from under her! )


Val
(B. Eng (HONS), MIET for what they are worth!)

I wish you people wouldn't talk about words when I'm trying to work.

Japanese is probably worse than British English in this respect, and when I googled a couple of terms experimentally, I got large numbers of Japanese engineers whining about exactly the same thing!

Why not borrow the US term "Professional Engineer" if you want to differentiate yourself from the gasman?

However, I rather think that we undervalue technical skills in every aspect, and are in danger of underestimating the qualifications and training required of the various technicians who keep our familiar community technology running. I have no problem with calling them engineers, and mentally placing them on one end of a scale which also includes PEs.

And that's from the Mum of a budding engineer, who is extremely proud to say that he goes to a Science & Technology high school, delighted to be issued with both a lab coat AND workshop gear, and is currently upstairs in bed with a fairly high fever...told to stay in bed, so he's dragged his desk over his bed, and when last checked up on and reprimanded for not being asleep, sighed dreamily and said "Mum, you have NO IDEA how WONDERFUL maths is. Linear Programming is just breathtaking!!! I couldn't sleep thinking about it!"

I'm pretty sure Linear Programming has nothing to do with anything he's doing at school. Or with speeding his recovery from a cold...

I'm a chemist, and when I tell people this there are 2 standard responses

(i) "I didn't like chemiistry at school"
(ii " Do you work in boots"


(BSc PhD)

I'm an artist but I'm not a designer, graphic artist, book-cover designer or sculptor so I often just say I'm a 'painter' (it's landscapes and portraits).

The amount of people who say 'oh you do decorating'???!!! And I'm an arty-farty middle aged lady who never wears white-splashed overalls... so it's an automatic response where people forgot to connect their brains to the evidence in front of them!

I can't even spell emulsion!

I did contemplate being a pharmacist when I was younger, but really it was the fact I was going to end up working in a 'chemists' that meant I didn't. I would have spent my whole time saying 'We're pharmacists, not chemists!!'

So instead I work for a pharma company, doing sort-of programming stuff. When I told my mother I was moving in to the technical group, she said 'Oh, writing?' and I said 'No, not technical writing, building databases!!'

Seems it doesn't matter what you do, someone will always find a way to misinterpret (haha, including me, if your statement meant boots as in footwear!)

Oh good.



Well we do have the term "Chartered Engineer", but I think to most people that means a cross between an accountant and car mechanic.

I don't like borrowing from the US. In the UK I was a "Public Health Enginner", to the Americans (when I worked with them out in Saudi) I was a "Sanitary Engineer", which sounded to me like someone who builds toilets. Oh and the American Institute of Civil Engineers did a nice line in belt buckles one of which said "I'm a people server". Yuk.



Ah now, when I was taking my degree maths was my weak bit. Applied was fine, it's just mechanics innit? Pure? When it came to Laplace Transforms my eyes glazed over. First job after graduating involved design of composite bridge decks, requiring the use of Laplace Transforms.

I asked my son about them, and he said "All I know about them is that I never want to meet one!"

I think that's the line that divides the engineer from the mathematician - I'm sure you can imagine that linear programming only became a fascinating subject when son realized he could apply it to train timetables... .

And, of course, the term "musician" applied across the board opens up a multitude of sins.....

Rejoice, Engineers of Britain, in the Government's lack of interest in your professional status. The minute they decide you are worthy of interest, you will be inundated with guidelines, inspections, regulatory bodies etc etc (excuse my ignorance if you are already afflicted). This country seem to be on a mission to knock anyone with any kind of professional expertise - they cannot be trusted to get on with their job, but are assumed to be incompetent, lazy and deceitful until proven otherwise.


*Rant over*

Hmm perhaps you have a point. "There is safety in obscurity" - Tom Paxton.

You've got to be joking. Most people don't know the difference between the bloke down the road who draws up plans for a bit of extra money and an architect. The word architect may be protected but it's a pointless protection. You can call yourself an Architectural designer or infact an Architectural anything.. A layperson won't know the difference!

All the huge construction firms have Architectural teams.. Most new housing schemes aren't designed by architects, they're designed by in house design teams..

In France, as I understand it, ALL buildings have to have the involvement of an architect.. Now that's protection!

As for bridges.. I designed one last week... There's more to 'design' than structural calculations...
Funny how you complain about people lessening your profession but you're happy to belittle another.

Now then, you know Architects are fair game amongst engineers But at least that's vaguely in the family.

Can you fix my boiler?

I can't even fix m own boiler. That needs a fitter.

You mean an engineer.

Er no. Wasn't that the whole point?

You're kidding right?

Never, ever ask that question with an engineer (or even engineer-shaped-humanoid-objects) in the house! Our gas water-heater died recently, and while there was great interest in taking it apart, nobody offered to mend it.

As a friend of mine often says "I'd rather have it in one piece, half-working, than in eight pieces, and not working at all!"

Umm, no. I think we must be taking at cross purposes. Engineers design things right? Fitters, chippies, sparks, plumbers - they're the blokes you get to come round and fix stuff.

My cousin is an engineer - and worked in Italy for many years where he was known as "Engineer Smith" (Smith isn't his surname, but you get the idea).

My father is also an engineer (now retired). He used to get irritated with people who assumed that anyone who worked in an enginering company was an engineer. When asked what his job was, he usually used to say that he was a "research scientist". That was 40 odd years ago, so things obviously haven't changed.

Just try not to take it to heart, all engineers out there. The people that matter to you will understand what you do

Pushpull



Read my posts v-e-r-y carefully.....

Maybe you can even guess what my job is...

It begins with the letter A...

But pushpull, that's the whole problem! Why is making or mending bad, and designing (with clean hands) good? Surely a good engineer wants both types of knowledge?

This is something I *really* like about the Japanese approach to engineering. And the desire to ignore the shop floor may kill off western technology, I sometimes fear.

Apart from various professional bodies, there is one big body called The Japan Institute of Invention and Innovation, which has members that range from nerdy high-schoolers, through the entire Brotherhood of the Back Garden Shed, and on up to Toyota's design labs.

JIII not only makes sure that members get to hear about new technology, they also sift through ideas from their members, so that even people working alone or in isolated areas get a chance to be involved with new technology.

Son Airman went through their children's group, and even some of the ideas "designed" by the kids are adopted and developed as commercial products.

I'm fairly sure if you read my replies to your posts it would be apparent I realise you are an Ar......



Which sounds to me like a body promoting engineering. If only we had the same in England ('cos our professional organisations don't).

Nice little spare-time project for you?! I know that professional engineering bodies in NZ don't do this kind of thing either, and it seems a pity...

P.S. The heart of the JIII approach is that it isn't entirely separate from working engineers - ideas from lowly sources can and do see the light of day, so it's not just play-way engineering.

One of our most entertaining labs in the first year was assembling a load of pipes and a pump, to do an experiment with the following week. I was working with 3 other students from Dubai, Hong Kong and Belgium respectively. To my horror, none of them had ever used a spanner or a screwdriver before, before we even got to the communication difficulties. (Though all speak excellent English, they had never come across vocabulary such as "set screw"...)

So, we can all model the flow of fluid in pipes, or specify a pump, and we had beautiful diagrams of where everything was supposed to go. But putting pipes together... suffice to say, we all got quite wet.

Ah hah! Found a useful bit of literature:

http://www.engc.org.uk/international/feani...gistration.aspx

Lo and behold Mr Joe Bloggs CEng, upon registration with FEANI (generally most UK chartered engineers are eligible), you may drop the Mr., and become Eur Ing Joe Bloggs CEng. With 12,000 registrants, it looks like with proper (and respected) usage of such a salutation (as pushpull recounts being called "Herr Ingenieur" in Germany), there can be progress towards what we strive for!

Good eh?

(sorry about the trigger-happiness of bracketing)

But, becomming a European Engineer is no different per se to being a Chartered Engineer? As I understood, it worked on a similar system. Certainly, my degree is classified as being enough of the academic side things for either. I don't see any obvious difference in the status...?

I don't know if it has changed over the years, but when FEANI first appeared, because I was already chartered, it was simply a case of stumping up the fee for the extra bit of paper. As far as I could see it made no difference within the industry and no-one outside it would understand what it meant anyway.