In another thread, a poster mentioned that a move in France to give out free contraception left them speechless. I personally believe it's a good idea as it encourages people to take care of themselves and they evidently have no excuse not to be safe when having ###.

It's something that surprised me, I thought everyone would be of the same mind so I thought I'd start a new thread in order to not hijack the other one. What do you think - is this a good idea or not?

But it happens here anyway: family planning clinics hand it out free.

Yes I know they do, but it was more the idea of it that provoked my question.

I'd agree that it's a good idea. Frankly, I'dve thought that encouraging people to use it (and being able to obtain it with a degree of privacy) is better than facing the possible consequences of people not having it. Convenience does influence a lot of people.

Of course! Getting rid of the stigma around ### can only be a good thing frankly. Obviously, from a safety perspective it's good... and God knows that teenagers already have ### on their minds, so the argument that it gives them ideas is a bit ridiculous really.

Personally I think that if ### was less of a taboo, and lost its mystery, then it would be less of an issue in society overall. I can't remember any quotes, details or statistics, so I'm aware this makes a very weak argument, but I've read in several places that the spread of STIs and teen pregnancy was much lower in cultures where talking about ### wasn't an issue at all.

Reading your reply with that amount of ###### in there (given its topic) made me giggle.

Some people, including myself, still consider all artificial contraception a bad thing. But I don't particularly expect the liberal mindset to understand something like that .

Part of the problem across Europe is that countries have lost their moral core which as well as making us more vulnerable to extremist ideologies also allows ultimately self destructive attitudes and behaviours to prevail. People complain about declining populations, well the use of contraception and abortion is to blame. People complain about STIs, contraception is also to blame because the fallacy that no strings attached intercourse can occur with no risks has been spread.

If people stopped having s## outwith marriage teen pregnancy would be virtually none existent, the spread of STIs would be halted in its tracks, the NHS could save millions by stopping needless and harmful procedures, the population decline would be reversed and the need for large numbers of migrant workers would be removed within a few decades rather than hanging over successive generations. And perhaps Europe could finally get back to moral values and accord life at all its stages the respect it deserves.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good religious argument eh?

Are we talking about Britain here?

News just in - the 22nd porcine wing of the RAF are on standby and ready to go.

People aren't going to cease engaging in casual coitus just because you want them to; all one can do is educate people so they are able to make their own choices, provide access to services and leave them to be.

interesting imagery there - and use of subtlety to avoid the censors...
Anyway, I agree with the sentiment - it's more effective to accept that it's going to happen and help to prevent any potential consequences.

What is not true about it? Do you seriously think that people in the developed world are having s## far less than previous generations? The only reason our birth rate is lower today than it was 50/100 years ago is that people are using contraception/abortion to prevent life following its natural course.

What if it is? Do you have a problem with people having a religion? Its a very intolerant view to believe that just because someone has religious beliefs their views are wrong.

As I said I don't expect liberal mindsets to understand, all you're doing is proving my point.

Yes - quite !

Quite true though. If anything has remained constant through every era of history....it's that

Please tell me who's complaining about declining populations?
And please tell me where on earth you got the idea that the UK's or even the world population is declining?
I don't understand because it's NOT TRUE...

Just beacuse you want something to be true so you can blame something you see as imoral doesn't make it so!!

Ditto

Really?

With the world population at six billion plus??? And China resorting to one child per family and "baby shutes" for unwanted girls??

I did promise not to respond that idiots posts, but
If, in my marriage, I had let nature take it's course............I would be a mother to around 22 children by now. How on earth would I provide for them all??
You do talk a load of twaddle snhs. It has to be said.
Beverley.

Hey, don't lump us all together here!

It's the UK that has always had problems with aggression, underage drinking, teenage pregnancies etc.

Most of Europe is doing okay thank you.



Steve

At least you would have stopped the population from ...errrr.....declining!

Yes, and I'd look like a very old lady by now too

Largely because the rest of Europe handles the education of its children on such matters rather better than we do, so that they know how to take precautions. And guess what? Because they're better informed and more relaxed about it, they also are rather more sensible about when and how they embark on it.



Of course, the male-dominated institutions which most strongly push these ideas don't give their womenfolk, who do all of the childbearing and still a lot of the child-rearing, much of a voice when it comes to these ideas, either...

SUMMARY: Minority reactionary view ... stated in a manner guaranteed to cause rage, provoke disagreement, and create unhappiness.

TROLL!


I think he was confusung population with age stucture - an increasing proportion of older people, no longer working, hence problems for funding pensions.

Oh come on!!!

I can imagine this being said in the 60s and 70s, but NOW???

The problems here are far more complex.


Steve

And on top of that, now we have snhs

yes

You seem to be suggesting that birth rate is independent of child mortality rates and life expectencies. A few figures:

- In the UK, the under-5 mortality rate in 2006 was 0.6% and life expectency is 79 years.
- In Sierra Leone, u-5 MR is 27%, and life expectency is 42.

If we were faced with a situation where infant mortality rates became 50 times greater, to be as they are in Sierra Leone, we would have more children to play it safe. Likewise, if we thought we were going to die at 42, we would have more children so the older ones could bring up the youngest when we died. But, we don't have either of these situations, thankfully; I'd rather have contraception than to die in 17 years' time having had a quarter of my children died before age 5.

Also, if we all stopped using contraception, there would be a massive over-population problem, and the economy would go to the dogs. Simply, vast increases in numbers of children would creating a shortage of school places and increased drain on public services, and hence increased taxation, coupled with decreased parental employment to raise the children. Until those children grew up and provided a workforce, they are mouths to feed, bringing in no money and providing no labour, so national borrowing would skyrocket and the economy would fall flat on its face. So I'm quite glad that your radical plans haven't taken off.

what, you mean men are now doing the childbearing?

Isn't there already a huge overpopulation problem. I'm not sure what constitutes trolling, since I know that snhs truly believes what he says he does... but speaking of a declining population is utterly ridiculous. Ah well, I guess it doesn't even deserve the response it's got.

I agree with whoever it was who said that men are the ones who uphold these old traditional ways of thinking. I'm sure it is passé to mention now that women have less power in the world than men, and that thus, issues which affect mostly women are seen as unimportant in the eyes of many... After all it could be seen as *shock horror* feminism.

*Grins* I agree with Freda_Bloggs - amusing that my rant against ### being a taboo was so voraciously censored.

Have they checked down the back of the sofa?

i don't have a problem with giving out free contraception. here, it is completely necessary. actually, it would probably be even better if everyone was fitted with a permanent condom or something at birth. and introduce liscences for people wanting children. but i do have a problem with this:

- Part of the problem across Europe is that countries have lost their moral core which as well as making us more vulnerable to extremist ideologies also allows ultimately self destructive attitudes and behaviours to prevail -

the belief that contraception is immoral or wrong or whatever is itself "an extremist ideology", and it also allows "ultimately self destructive attitudes and behaviours to prevail". think AIDs, STIs and whatever else. people shouldn't use contraception because of what? what makes it wrong?

Odd discussion this. Let's pull a few things together.

I believe that UK population is declining, but we know that world population is growing fast. It has always been said (and I have no reason to doubt it) that people have more kids when things are hard - this is not, I guess, a conscious decision... probably some fairly deep-rooted evolutionary tactic. (Before anyone claims that this is counter-productive, remember that a) natural selection does not lead to perfect solutions, but to satisficing ones, and b) that it does not work to the advantage of the *species* or the *individual* but the gene. So provided enough offspring get through, it doesn't matter (to nat selection) how many die).

To my mind, we should not mix up abortion and contraception - different issues. And of course one can have views on either, with or without having a religious belief, and someone's religious belief seems irrelevant to the discussion - unless it is the explicit motivation for their views on contraception.

We are presumably talking about barrier contraception, in particular c*o*n*d*o*m*s. There are of course many other forms of contraception available. Should they be free? Probably depends on where and when you're talking about. Given the serious depredation caused by AIDS in southern Africa and elsewhere, and the growth of STIs in Britain (esp chlamydia), then if free c'doms reduce the spread of these terrible diseases, giving them away seems essential both to avoid suffering, and to reduce the strain on health services. Better contraception ought to also reduces abortion rates - I'd much rather have free c'doms than increased abortions.

Do free c'doms reduce the spread of STIs? I don't know (this is an empirical question which would be difficult to resolve), but I would be surprised if they didn't. Do they lead to more promiscuous coupling? I would be surprised if this was the case - if the STI rate is growing, then people are presumably having unprotected s** anyway, and the issue is to get these people using c'doms. I would be surprised if anyone's s**ual behaviour was influenced solely by the availability of c'doms.

Is this the only answer? No, I doubt it - as others have said, there are important cultural and educational issues. But if it reduces disease (and the abortion rate as well) I'm for it.

nick

flippant ....... but really very funny ....... thanks for making me smile today

This topic seems in serious danger of getting side tracked, but anyways...

Can you imagine if you wanted contraception, but had to pay the £6 odd standard perscription fee for it every month?! It would be a serious deterrant! At the same time, you don't want to have children, they are even more expensive! Decent barrier contraception is also expensive.

That in itself is reason enough for free contraceptives, of the most appropriate type, to be available to anyone that wants them. Every child deserves to be wanted at birth, just as every women is entitled to have a life and decide when she wants children. In modern society we have the technology for this to be possible, while having an... active life. And no-one should be priced out of that option.

Morals, in this case, is down to the individual. It isn't up to society to choose one way or another about someone else's choice to have children. Use of contraception should not have any stigma attached. Using it doesn't mean that you're sleeping with everyone and anyone, it just means you don't want children yet.

Absolutely Tamsin. Sorry for going . I agree with you.
Bev,

I believe that the highest rates of teenage pregancy and abortion are in those countries where the catholic church has most influence Brazil and poland are pretty high up the list. The lowest rates are in Sweden and the Netherlands.

The church's teaching is pretty widely ignored.

There are probably fewer teenage pregnacies now than at almost any time in the history of the UK - the big difference is that people got married off young. By the time they were 40 many would have spent most of their lives pregnant and given birth to about 12 kids.

As Fredrick says in the Pirates of Penzance (it is a music forum after all) "...a man of 21 should look for a wife of 17 ...".

Oh dear, I have to confess to being the guilty party who was left speechless on another thread !

I am certainly not against contraception, nor against free contraception. I am also a firm believer in trying to get the world population down before Mother Earth dies of exhaustion - and I have no idea how this could be done fairly, taking into account the needs of different populations.

But I do have a slightly old fashioned distaste for having ### like eating sweets and it was the sheer complacency of the announcement on French TV that left me speechless. The idea was obviously : « There’s going to be a great big musical jamboree and lots of people will be leaping into bed with each other so let’s make casual ### easy and safe. » Does this now apply to any large gathering ? OK I know all the arguments about people are going to do it anyway so let them do it safely. It’s a reasonable argument and I am certainly not going to criticise what other people choose to do with their bodies.

I simply feel we ought to be a bit more careful with our bodies than the announcement of French TV implied.

We are a long line of very fertile women. My Grandmother had 11 children, My great grandmother had 14 children and my great great grandmother had 12. My mother said that when she was handed contraception after the birth of her second, she cried with relief, she really thought that she was headed for a doz or so. The thought of having more than my four, freaks me out.

The vast majority of young people do engage in intercourse and why oh why are we still being hissy about it in 2008. Yes every child a wanted child! Choice is what we promote to our young people and with this choice is information and easy access to contraception. On my first day at Uni (1978) in the round of freshers week there were huge baskets of condoms laid out everywhere in the Student Union, along with cards telling us where to get them for free, we were encouraged to take them - we did! It didnt mean we went around having loads of sweets! Most of them ended up out-of-date unused!

All my kids know they can get free condoms from the GP Practise. I would rather my kids have condoms in their handbags than get pregnant, have an abortions or an STD.

The condom machines in the pubs loos should be free too.

A friend of mine who is a primary school teacher, and goes to an Evangelical type of church, told me last week that Britain has the highest teenage birthrate in Europe, and Dudley has the highest rate in Britain. Her church is trying to do something about it. I believe they are going into schools and saying that it is better to wait.
Bev.

To wait? Or use contraception, maybe? I think, as a previous poster has said, that information is the key. Instead of going into schools and preaching that people should wait, tell pupils the religious side of things and then also say that if they choose to, contraception is available. I'd be far more likely to listen to a preacher if they gave a balanced view on things.

HI Freda.
It's not my church so I don't know all the ins and outs, BUT, I think they are saying that the kids feel pressured to get into a s*x life earlier than they would like to, because of peer pressure, and that it is OK to wait until they are in a very stable long term relationship OR married.
Please don't have a go at me, this is what they are doing.
Bev.

Sorry, Bev, I wasn't having a go at you The church just winds me up, especially on matters such as this one. The Catholic church's stance could certainly be blamed for a large proportion of STIs and unwanted pregnancies.

I do agree though that, yes, often kids are pressured into ### earlier than they would like to and any help to avoid this should be welcomed. But replacing one demon with another is not the way!

I think the traditional mechanisms are famine, pestilence and war.



Oh I'm sure the reasoning was make it safe rather than easy and safe. How mush does treatment of STDs cost a typical country these days? Then again, making it safe does remove one of the traditional mechanisms listed above.



Well we should certainly be careful.

Not only that, but I know of a few Catholics my age who have gone off their faith because they can't reconcile the teaching with regard to contraception, with wanting children-free lives at present. That seems very sad to me.

Many STD/STI go untreated for months as there are often no visible symptoms, particularly with young women. There is a steady rise in STDs over the past decade its not going away because of this notion that you will know when you have one and that a quick dose of antibiotics will cure everything. This is one of the causes of infertility amongst young women leading in turn to the steep rise in women having IVF treatments. Cancers of the Cervic and Uterus. And we wont mention HIV. Umm thats the cost.

Someone mentioned best to wait. Wait for what? Marriage, consenting age, how long is a long-term realtionship, what? People have been having S intercourse since time, before marriage and before consenting age. They will continue to do so. It is my thinking that you have to approach it in terms of safety and contraception. Give then them Information again and again and again. I have had to work with teenagers and they are doing it. Tell a bunch of 15 year olds in high school to wait and over two thirds they will tell you "been there done that", and they are not joking.

When you have a teenage girl come back to school to show off her baby and she breaks down in your arms and says "Miss I wish I had used a condom". I have had that. She didnt say "Miss I wish I had waited". Thats when I woke up.

Please keep telling young people where they can get condoms for free alongside your chats on waiting.