Hello,

Three Saturdays ago I started a new male student of fourteen years old. When I got to the house for his first lesson, he was literally hiding behind his father. Dad said he was going through a shy phase.

He was very nervous for most of the lesson (to be expected) but by the end he tended to relax. However, there was no eye contact (except for fleeting glances) and he was transfixed with the fishtank which stands beside the piano. He hasn't as yet come to the door to let me in or to see me out at the end of the lesson.

On this last Saturday, he asked me how his piano works. "Let's take a look inside yours" I say! He was thrilled to bits with helping to take the front off and to see the workings inside.

He wanted to know the absolute ins and outs of it all. (Thankfully I was able to answer most of his questions!). Then when we put the front panel back on, he said all the ornaments on top had to be symmetrical. He was very fastidious in replacing everything.

I'm now getting thoughts of Aspergers in my mind. I have cared for and nursed many people with ASD and he appears "typical". However, mum and dad have not mentioned anything so far. They know through talking to me that I work with people with Learning Disabilities. (They are both GP's).

So, should I ask mum and dad if he has the condition, or wait until they broach the subject with me? I may be wrong of course...but I don't think so.

I'd ask

I wouldn't ask unless there was anything in his behaviour that worried you. Teach him to play and to read and this may well become one of his obsessional activities and he might excel at it and get a huge amount of pleasure from his music making.

At the end of the day I guess it doesn't really matter if he has or hasn't got Aspergers.  He has had lessons with two other teachers and he plays well.  Dad said that he (son) felt comfortable with me, and that he was practising every day in between lessons.  He hasn't had lessons for over a year, so he's picked it up again very well. It's early days yet, so I may wait a while and see if they volunteer any information about him. Thanks for your thoughts so far

I don't think I'd ask unless it became an obvious problem. I too would have to spend ages making sure the ornaments were symetrical too, but I haven't got asperges.

David

maybe just OCD then...
(I'm the same )

So I'm told.....I'm the same with the cutlery and have a piano pupil who does exactly the same!

oh dear - I spend ages making sure things are not symmetrical

btw I probably wouldn't ask for the moment - just keep an open mind, see how things develop, and be thankful for a keen student!

(ps - yes, unless it became a obvious problem)

Ornaments on the piano??

The reason I would ask is that if he does have any form of learning disability then you can take that into consideration when you are teaching him...rather than wait until something becomes a problem and then mention it...this could take weeks.

I teach an autistic man keyboards and by knowing that it gives me greater patience with him.

I'm not saying just come out and ask the parents but maybe gently enquire about his learning in other aspects of his school work and see what they say. It can only make you a better teacher to the student and also it's unhealthy to keep these concerns on your mind

Yes, the vibrations are going to be rather annoying aren't they?

...me too...

Leave it a couple of weeks and then ask. It may help you in the long run.
Bev.

You have obviously made a good start with this boy. Knowing something about Asperger's as you do, you can anticipate any likely hurdles. I would wait and see how it goes. His parents are aware of your background, so they are probably expecting you to put 2 and 2 together, but may be checking you out to see how you react to and get on with their son. I'm sure the topic will eventually come up in conversation, but as you say, the important thing is to get on with teaching him. Sounds like he could turn out to be a rewarding student.

And me...and I have to have the books on my bookshelves in height order, too..

I guess I make 4 then. I drive my mother mad - checking the door 3 times before bed, making sure my wardrobe is organised by item (in order of item size - eg strappy tops, t-shirts, long sleeved tops... and then by colour), sheet music is organised by instrument, then by standard, then by style, composer and title. All my CD's are in alphabetical order, everything has to be in it's set place and I get really upset if it isn't - No wonder I drive the people around me completely mad!!

But yeah - I'd leave it a few weeks and see how things go. If it becomes more apparent then just taylor your lessons to suit his needs. All my teachers are very good at adjusting lessons to suit my special needs, and never had to be told.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily Asperger's. It might be something else or maybe he just has some weird compulsions. I myself have a number of neuroses.

Probably trills, or even acciaccatura?

(Sorry - couldn't resist! )

Me too!! haha! I'm very much into symmetricalness!! (if that's even a word!!)

and me... but I never thought that was odd.. it just seems obvious that the big books go at the back.

You can't have a big book sticking up in between a row of small ones - it's just wrong !!

What was that film with Julia Roberts where her husband had to have all the tins in the cupboard facing the right way?

If you ever fancy a re-location???? I'd happily swap. I'll even do a bogof for her

On topic....

Perhaps the Parents have been open in the past and people haven't been able to treat their son as equal. Perhaps they will open up when they realise that you are developing a good relationship wiht him. They should have realised though that you are coming at this from a different starting point.

Is it a problem with musical people to have some sort of ocd? i have ocp and it drives ME nuts somtimes! (and even others believe me!!!)

Was it "Sleeping With the Enemy"? (had scary music in it too if I remember rightly).

Yes! That's the one Couldn't remember the title!

The music was from Symphonie Fantastique by Berlioz, and yes, it was creepy

Remember the scene in "Desperate Housewives" where Bree spends some minutes arranging paper serviettes after an AA meeting. She then turns to her mentor and says "I do not have a compulsive personality" and the camera focuses on the compulsively neatly arranged serviettes!

I found that film absolutely terrifying and I saw it in the cinema so I couldn't leave the room on the pretext of making a cuppa.
It made me nervous of anyone with OCD in case they turned out like teh character played by Michael Douglas!
Having said that, if either me or Mr enharmonic had a touch of OCD, then maybe our house wouldn't be so untidy!

I have OCD as well, and it drives me completely insane. Everything has to have a place, everything has to symetrical, and when writing single words in a list or something, they all have to end with a full stop! Also, i clean EVERYTHING, so if i'm let near the washing up, it's sparkling, but i then have to wash my hands about 5 times before i can be happy. This has a negative effect too, because i am terrified of public toilets, certain door handles, because i know they are dirty, i cant touch animals for long without HAVING to wash my hands, and i can't touch hair! I am also extremely paranoid, and i often think there are people outside my house in the night, which is awful, and i have been known to stay up all night (this is my Nan's fault, cos she is exactly the same, and it has rubbed off on me).

Anyway, back to the thread, I would only ask if his behaviour became a problem and interfered with teaching.

Jacob.

One of my students has a pencil case adorned with the legend, 'The Art of Straightness' or something similar, and pictures of things neatly set out in straight lines. She gets very twitchy if her file is out of alignment with a neighbouring book...and don't get me started about dog-eared pages or creased banknotes!

Cyrilla, do you have to have all of your banknotes folded the same way and in ascending order in your purse (guilty as charged, m'lud!), and then in ascending order of note number (not guilty)?

Size order doesn't matter for books, but they do have to be in alphabetical order of author, and then in the order in which they were written; for example, Tess of the D'Urbervilles has to be before Jude the Obscure.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, OCD should be renamed CDO, because that way the letters are in alphabetical order

Sorry for the hijacking, DaisyChain. I don't know enough about Asperger's to be able to say, and I'd be inclined to see how things develop over the next few weeks before plucking up the courage to mention it to his parents.

I make a point of discreetly asking a parent about any problems, conditions etc in the first lesson with a new student. However, I think I would tread carefully with this teenager. If his parent are both GPs, they must be aware of it, but if they haven't mentioned it to you, it may be that they are trying to play it down for the student's sake, or perhaps encouraging people to accept him as he is, rather than labelling him as different. Since you are clearly well-versed in people with learning disabilities, it might be wise just to bear it in mind, and teach as you find.

Just my two penn'orth!

I think this is key- if you are now treating him as you would if you had been told he has Aspergers what difference does it make if you have been told or not? If it makes no difference there seems little point in asking.

For me books and CDs are arranged by category regardless of size (nearly) and author- with a separate shelf for the ones I need to repair or rebind.

Entirely agree.... I have a son with dyspraxia. I tell all his teachers etc.... If they haven't told you... they probably have a very good reason. I have 2 psychiatrist friends with a daughter with CF. Daughter is 14 and HATES people knowing... so I imagine they often don't tell teachers etc.

The time to ask would be if he needed dispensation in an exam???? (extra time or anything....)

Thanks for all your posts...both on and off topic!!!

Parents want me to work with him towards grade 1, so yes, I think the time to ask would be right then as he may require extra time.

I think the word is 'symmetry'.


I'm the complete opposite to all the posters here who like things to be in order. Actually I'd probably love things to be tidy but am absolutely hopeless at the moment and getting steadily worse.

I've noticed a lot of jazzers tend to be untidy, so perhaps it just goes with the territory? God knows.

Er - I can't bear to fold them - but yes, they're in ascending order in my purse..



Ha, ha, I don't ever have enough of the folding stuff in order to be able to do that (though you have put a deliciously tempting thought into my head )

I've revived this thread because I think the OP has asked an incredibly important question. Just how far can we teachers go without knowing if a pupil has a problem if we are accountable for the pupils' progress or lack of? A parent who is either unaware or unprepared to accept that their child needs extra time, support and help will blame the teacher if very little headway is made in lessons, with potentially serious repercussions.

This is something that concerns me a lot and I wondered whether forarmed could be forewarned in a potentially difficult situation (which I have had this week and I am physically and emotionally shattered from the effects). I have been on the internet and found various websites and I am especially interested in learning more about dyspraxia. I might join the foundation and see if there are workshops and training days I could go on. Does anyone know how I could get training in Special Needs generally as I am very interested in the subject. When I was on my PGCE (not completed) I was told how supportive I was in one to one situations in the classroom. Any experience or knowledge shared would be very welcome.

Thanks in advance

I have a son with dyspraxia....... what would you like to know?

And it may be that parents view lessons in completely different ways because of their child's special needs. My neighbour's son has quite a severe form of dyspraxia, he can't write for example. He has drumming lessons. His mother is very clear with the drum teacher which is obviously good. As far as she's concerned it is almost a therapy session for him. He refuses to practice and he hits his own drum kit so hard he breaks things on it. But the benefit of the lessons is apparently obvious to other people who are working with him.

In my case my daughter does French in school. I treat it as a leisure activity for her. As long as she is enjoying it I'm happy for her to continue. If she ever says it is stressful I will press school to provide remedial English instead. In fact her French teacher is wonderful and she is loving French.

I honestly don't think that you can ask people straight out if their child has a learning disability. I don't see any problem though with raising a factual issue with them. If I were paying for lessons and my child wasn't making satisfactory progress for whatever reason I'd want to know how the problem manifested itself. You could also raise whatever your problem is and suggest strategies for dealing with it and ask the parents what they thought might work.

I'm very straight with people about my daughter difficulties and potential strategies for dealing with them. So far so good.

Sorry you had such a bad experience this week. I hope you can find a way forward.
Dora

Thank you Clari Nicki Do you know anything about the Dyspraxia Foundation? I'm wondering if I can join as an interested piano teacher who wants to learn more about the condition and how to recognise it early - if I happen to find myself with a pupil who is making unexpected slow progress. Is it possible for a child to have the condition very mildly without displaying the clumsiness and excessive movement that I have read about? Would dyspraxia show itself in weak hand muscles and poor control of an instrument?

I'm also interested in training or voluntary work in this area but I guess I can ask the Foundation about this.

Thanks Dora and I agree with you about not asking straight out if it can be helped. I did all those things you suggested over a period of about six months and they didn't work - partly because I was not being told why there were problems. My reason for wanting more information is for when I take on new pupils in the future I will know what indirect questions to ask at the outset of lessons, hopefully without causing offence to anyone. I'm also interested in the subject and anything to do with movement and co-ordination related to dance and music. The Dalcroze course beckons

Another question Can someone with dyspraxia still be very good at reading generally?

I have asked 'Is there anything different that I could do in my teaching to help X with his learning, do you think?'

This invites a response which is helpful without any predjudice. Not that I have any. The poster in my sons' school nurses office reads 'labels are not for people' and I think that's wise...

I had a pupil who made very slow progress on the piano. She had real difficulty putting hands together even for elementary pieces and always had her index finger stuck out at a peculiar angle. It affected her playing to such an extent that she could not play the simplest hands together pieces in time. I asked parents whether she was dyspraxic at all, and they said she had been tested for dyslexia and was not dyslexic. However, having persevered for a year, they then said that she had been tested and was in fact slightly dyslexic. She was able to do things requiring larger motor skills like cycling, and she was a very good athlete and played games very successfully at school. It just affected her fine motor skills. Slightly unusual perhaps because I understand dyslexia often affects boys.

The child I'm talking about reads very well indeed.
But the muscles in his eyes have similar problems to other muscles so he was quite old when he first saw a bird because he couldn't follow their movement fast enough to see them when flying. Catching a ball is a major problem partly because his eyes just can't track the ball.
I guess this would mean that if he lost his place in a piece of music that could be a problem. My daughter had her sight reading enlarged by the board and she really found it very helpful. She is dyslexic but that is probably a consequence of her language difficulties rather than a separate problem. Enlarging music might help.
His mother was talking to me tonight and said that deadlines are often a problem for people with dyspraxia. I've no idea how that works.
I remember another thing that she said is a major problem is crossing the body with hands. So if I want to pick something up which is to my left but I want in my right hand I'm likely to reach across and pick it up with my right hand. Someone with dyspraxia is likely to pick it up with their left hand and then pass it from one hand to the other.
Any exercise that involves crossing the body is good for them.
That should be possible to attempt with the piano sometimes.
Dora

That reminds me of how I was first alerted to problems with one of my pupils. We started using a book that had a lot of melodies that crossed from one hand to the other - suddenly he stopped making progress and became incredibly muddled. Better when hands clearly separated.

I think deadlines are a problem because people with dyslexia/praxia can have problems getting organised and planning things. They can also be quite inconsistent in their performance - great one week, hopeless the next. One boy I teach can never get himself organised at the beginning of the lesson - he wanders in, and I always have to say "Sit down at the piano, now take your books out of your bag" etc. Ditto at the end of the lesson.

I have a line on my pupil registration form that says "Any other information that the teacher should be aware of eg medical conditions, learning difficulties........................................." It occasionally elicits some useful information, and hopefully gets the message across that I feel I should be told of any difficulties.

Hi Cambiata-
My son reads very well. He learned to read quickly.... My son has very poor muscle tone in his hands..... he is 12 and predominantly uses a laptop as his hand writing is sooooo poor. He has tracking issues with his eyes but that's not too bad now- it doesn't seem to stop him reading things.

Dyspraxic children often find crossing the midline of the body hard and brain gym activities are good for this. My son is right handed but showed a preference for his r hand very late. However, if his pencil was to the left, he would pick it up with his L hand and put it into his right hand rather than put his right hand across the body.


Organisation is a big problem for dyspraxic children.

I was a member of the dyspraxia Foundation. It is good. It has good information. The dyscovery website is good too. The Dyscovery Centre is based in Wales somewhere.

My son isn't excessively clumsy, although he a bit clumsy- he learned to ride a bike when he was about 6. His hands are the worst affected part of his body- so it's fine motor skills that are difficult for him.
My son used to be a real fidget and move around a lot, but he doesn't now so much- probably more than another child of the same age, but it's not so noticeable. That's to do with not getting the right information about where he is in relation to his environment.

Dyspraxia is a bunch of symptoms- not all affected children have all the symptoms all the time.

If you are looking for forum type advice- I'd go for the Dyscovery Centre website. I found that very helpful .

I can tell you more about dyspraxia but I'm tired and my brain isn't functioning.....

I'd forgotten about this thread!

Just to update you on my original post...

This thread was started on 23rd June last year...on 25th June I sustained my back injury. When I realised it was going to be a long term problem (I'm still suffering the effects now) I wrote to all my students to inform them. I had a letter from this persons father saying he was sorry to hear of my injury..he also said "....my son was getting used to you. We liked you as it was obvious you can work well with Learning Disabled students" !!!! Anyway, I got another letter a couple of weeks later to say "Son has decided to play cricket on Saturdays instead!" I 'phoned them when I started teaching again, but he has decided to give up piano altogether now.

Some interesting posts on here though. Thanks for starting it again, cambiata.

I have a student with dyspraxia. When she was primary age we went very very slowly, spending a lot of time on Me and My Piano 1 and 2. We concentrated on playing one piece at a time and spent time clapping, marching and doing short theory exercises. Having spent a number of years edging towards grade one, she is now at grade 3 level and will be taking her exam in November. She got a distinction at Grade 2 (and had no extra time/dispensation).

The thing I find important to remember about dyspraxic children is that they seem to often feel tired and then lack concentration. This piano student used to nearly droop at the piano sometimes from the tiredness of a day at school. A theory student I have with dyspraxia needs to be reminded to write down homework and generally helped to concentrate and focus.

I think if you are aware of the problem you can do something to help the child. Otherwise it can be difficult, as symptoms like lack of concentration can be taken for bad behaviour, especially in a group context. My theory pupil's mum only told me this year and I have been teaching him for three. I wish she had told me earlier as I would have made an extra effort for him!

This is interesting ... I have a new-ish 8 year old pupil who seems to have difficulty doing some of the early keyboard stuff that mostly I find 6 year olds whizz through. Have seen this child only about 4 times to date - but it seems likely that I will need to find different approaches.

Thanks for the link - I will have a look later and see if some of it rings bells.

This has been interesting and has made a few things make sense - particularly with regard to an adult pupil of mine.

However I do think we should be very careful before we confront a parent about a possible learning 'disability'. I did use the word 'confront' intentionally, as that is how it could appear. Whether or not a child has a specific problem, we, as individual tutors, are in an enviable poition of being able to focus entirely on that individual, and they all have different strengths, weaknesses and quirks. Knowledge about the various difficulties that children (and adults) can have is extremely uselful, and all students will probably have some of these difficulties to some extent or another (what is 'normal?), so knowing how best we can help is useful, but pigeonholing should really only become an issue when a teacher has to teach to the average - or middle ground - in a group situation. DaisyChain's posts show that she was obviously well able to deal with the situation without suggesting a label. If entering for an exam, and teacher feels strongly that extra time might help, then that's the time to tactfully enquire as to whether or not there are any special needs that we are not aware of.