I have always heard somehow, that the French / Tenor horn is a very difficult instrument to play.

Is this right or wrong?

If it's right, why?


Thanks much,

Oddball

french and tenor horns are not the same thing. the tenor horn is a smaller version of a tuba, and the french horn in more round. the french horn is often considered the most difficult instrument to play because it is very easy to split notes and to hit the wrong one. the tenor horn is not as difficult, i managed to teach my self how to play it!!

I have played both tenor and french horn. Tenor horn is extremely easy, French horn is extremely difficult (in comparison at least!)

without respecting tenor horn playing, they are in completely different leagues. tenor horn is generally played by amateurs, as apart from brass bands, tenor horns will get virtually no work in the music world because horns (i mean french horns) play in orchestras and in film music etc.

also, you cant play tenor horn as your principle instrument at the london colleges or the birmingham conservatoire, also there are tutors so i assume it can be your second instrument.

tenor horns also dont have to transpose, whereas horns have to all the time.

QUOTE (hornplayer @ Oct 13 2004, 05:15 PM)

[...] tenor horn is generally played by amateurs, as apart from brass bands, tenor horns will get virtually no work in the music world because horns (i mean french horns) play in orchestras and in film music etc. [...]

The composer Django Bates, who first came to public notice as a founder and leading light of Loose Tubes, plays tenor horn and piano with great success.

I'm sure there are some people who make a living out of tenor horn playing, but, no offence to tenor horn players, why would you play that when you could play the French horn?! It's just so much more beautiful in every way! (though also more difficult)

QUOTE (hgirl @ Oct 13 2004, 07:45 PM)

why would you play that when you could play the French horn?! It's just so much more beautiful in every way! (though also more difficult)

If you set off with the intention of playing the tenor horn! Is pretty easy to swap from french horn onto tenor horn, but not easy to swap the other way round! Tenor horns also play in brass bands where french horns dont, they are orchestral instruments.

there arent many pro brass bands, in fact, the only one i can think of is the Grimsby Colliery Band (the real life brass band featured in "Brassed Off").

the soundtrack to "Brassed Off" has some really beautiful brass solos, i think tenor horns make a nicer vibrato sound than french horns do. horns (french) doing too much vibrato and "dark tone colour" just end up sounding like a mix of dodgy basson/trombone and baritone.

by chance do you play tenor horn Katet?

me and hgirl dont mean to offend tenor horns, its just that tenor horns and french horns don't mix so well!

(perhaps cos if tenor horns and french horns play the same part, the tenors always have it the little bit more difficult cos they have to play one note higher to play the same sounding note as the slightly lower pitched french horn- just a theory tho! )

I do, but i taught my self to play it because we had one lying around, but my mum plays the French horn. Im not really talking pros, just people who play for fun! But i dont know many tenor horn players whose main instrument is the tenor horn. Well, acctually i know 2! but most of the play something else as well. Ok, am rambling now! I didnt mean to cause an arguement!!

As I understand it (not being either a French or Tenor horn player), the reason why the French Horn is so difficult is - aside from the technical aspects which are challenging enough - is that the player must be able to read the music which is written down in a given key (usually F), yet transpose on the fly to the key the orchestra is actually playing in!!!
In other words, a French Horn player must be able to transpose instantly to any key!!
I've seen Alto Sax and Clarinet players get used to transposing on the fly to suit their (always fixed) instrument. That's clever too, but at least its always the same interval.

s'all good! i didnt mean to be argumentative either!

i just have "minor" heated debates about whether tenor horn is better than french horn. there's just so much more repertoire for french horn.

apparently one of the royal colleges brass band wouldnt let tenor horns in, and would only take french horns..............but that may be because they dont offer tenor horn as a principal instrument, and dont have a tutor for it!

QUOTE (indy_epx @ Oct 13 2004, 09:10 PM)

As I understand it (not being either a French or Tenor horn player), the reason why the French Horn is so difficult is - aside from the technical aspects which are challenging enough - is that the player must be able to read the music which is written down in a given key (usually F), yet transpose on the fly to the key the orchestra is actually playing in!!! In other words, a French Horn player must be able to transpose instantly to any key!! I've seen Alto Sax and Clarinet players get used to transposing on the fly to suit their (always fixed) instrument. That's clever too, but at least its always the same interval.

The orchestral horn player does need to learn several transpositions, because the older parts were written for the convenience of a player who changed the length of his horn with different crooks to put it in a key suitable for the piece, while nowadays we usually play the part on the F/Bb horn by using the valves. With practice, this becomes a minor problem in familiar works. Modern works are nearly all written for horns in F, though Strauss wrote for horns in other keys throughout his career, finishing with horns in Bb basso in his "Four Last Songs".

horns have to transpose into any number of keys! a piece my mum and i are playing in an orchestra has horns in about 6 differnt keys!

Sorry! i really don't mean to offend tenor horn players either- I did used to be one myself after all! (i found it very easy to move from Tenor to French horn by the way, though that was probably because I had only been playing the tenor horn for a year and a bit)
The whole transposition issue is one of the reasons why the French horn is difficult, but other instruments have to cope with that too. The main reason it is thought of as difficult is because of the way the instrument is built. The notes of the harmonic series are much closer together than on any other brass instrument, particularly int he higher octaves. This makes the notes harder to pitch, and you need a very good ear to succeed at it. It's also quite painful to play for long periods of time- I find it gets really heavy and my back and neck and arms and most of all my lips get all sore! It's definitely worth it though- when it's played well it just sounds so beautiful!
Oh and I definitely agree with hornplayer over the vibrato- it sounds awful on French horn! Then again, sometimes tenor horn players overuse vibrato to the point of vulgarity!

QUOTE

Then again, sometimes tenor horn players overuse vibrato to the point of vulgarity!

like some string players.....................

QUOTE (hgirl @ Oct 14 2004, 08:49 PM)

It's also quite painful to play for long periods of time- I find it gets really heavy and my back and neck and arms and most of all my lips get all sore!

I rest the bell on my knee, American style. If you want to make an English sound you have to be careful that it still points past your body, not into it.

QUOTE (kenm @ Oct 15 2004, 12:31 AM)

I rest the bell on my knee, American style. If you want to make an English sound you have to be careful that it still points past your body, not into it.

My teacher would absolutely murder me if I even attempted to rest the bell on my knee!!

QUOTE (hgirl @ Oct 15 2004, 10:15 PM)

QUOTE (kenm @ Oct 15 2004, 12:31 AM) I rest the bell on my knee, American style.  If you want to make an English sound you have to be careful that it still points past your body, not into it. My teacher would absolutely murder me if I even attempted to rest the bell on my knee!!

The first Alexander 103 double, c. 1930, had hollow valves, and is probably the lightest full double you can get. I have one, with a new bell fitted in 1972. It is a bit difficult at the top of the range (written B and C) but is still the best horn I own for middle and low register.

I like my compensating double... it's nice and light, and it means I don't have to rest it on my knee... although I do anyway... lol...

QUOTE (hornplayer @ Oct 14 2004, 09:10 PM)

QUOTE Then again, sometimes tenor horn players overuse vibrato to the point of vulgarity! like some string players.....................

ouch!!!!

Whoah! I see you've all read my topic....


So, if I went out and bought a Fr. horn today, would I be impressed? Would I be able to go far with it? Is it any more frustrating to learn than anything else??


Your help much appreciated

Oddball

QUOTE (kenm @ Oct 16 2004, 12:07 AM)

The first Alexander 103 double, c. 1930, had hollow valves, and is probably the lightest full double you can get. I have one, with a new bell fitted in 1972. It is a bit difficult at the top of the range (written B and C) but is still the best horn I own for middle and low register.

What about the newer Alexanders? I'll definitely look into that- I'm buying a new horn soon anyway- I can't wait!

Oddball,
I didn't find the French horn frustrating to learn, although I've started to attempt lip trills and it's driving me insane! I've been playing for 6 years now and I've loved every minute of it. I progressed quite quickly because I did lots of practice, and I'd already played a tenor horn so I knew how to make a noise on it! I know people who started a few years before I did and are still on Grade 5, but then again Dennis Brain didn't start the horn until he was 16, so how much progress you make really depends on the person, the amount of work you put in and your basic natural ability. If you've neve rplayed a brass instrument before then it'll probably take a while before it starts sounding like an instrument rather than some sort of foghorn thing! I love it though, and they always need horn players in orchestras so it s a great way to get involved with orchestral music.

QUOTE (hgirl @ Oct 16 2004, 03:48 PM)

What about the newer Alexanders? I'll definitely look into that- I'm buying a new horn soon anyway- I can't wait!

I haven't played a new Alex recently. I have a Bb/F alto that I bought in 1972. I later decided that it was not a good design (Bb/F altos were a fairly new idea then) and apparently so did they, because that design was withdrawn from production and another introduced. I have always regretted that I did not stick to my original idea of buying a five-valve single Bb, which gives you all the lengths you can get on the full double, albeit with some very odd combinations for some of them.

After six years you must have a good idea of what you want to play and what would be the best instrument for it. I would be surprised if you could find anything better than an Alexander for chamber music with strings or woodwind. To compete with the heavy brass in orchestras or brass groups, you might be better off with one of the wide-bore American designs, like a Conn. Paxman and Yamaha still have their supporters, I believe, but I don't talk to a wide range of horn players nowadays. I expect your teacher could point you at an appropriate web discussion group

QUOTE

Oddball, I didn't find the French horn frustrating to learn, although I've started to attempt lip trills and it's driving me insane! I've been playing for 6 years now and I've loved every minute of it. I progressed quite quickly because I did lots of practice, and I'd already played a tenor horn so I knew how to make a noise on it! I know people who started a few years before I did and are still on Grade 5, but then again Dennis Brain didn't start the horn until he was 16, so how much progress you make really depends on the person, the amount of work you put in and your basic natural ability. If you've neve rplayed a brass instrument before then it'll probably take a while before it starts sounding like an instrument rather than some sort of foghorn thing! I love it though, and they always need horn players in orchestras so it s a great way to get involved with orchestral music.

Thanks.

I've never played brass before, but I'm playing the Clarinet at the mo. I'm quite good at starting to play new instruments so I shouldn't have a problem....I hope not.


Good luck with lip-trills.


Oddball

my dig at string players was a joke cheeble, I love them really!!!!!

I play a holton 181 (rose bell, double horn) and I have to say before I tried it I wouldnt have gone near it, but its light, very well balanced and has a beautiful tone. Before that I played the student double horn (yamaha 567) which is stupidly heavy and has a nasty sound.

I started horn after 18 months of trumpet and it took me 5-ish years to get grade 8 dist. I think if you can get yourself into lots of groups (which shoudlnt be hard considering horn is an endangered species), it really motivates and gets you that extra push to practice, so you stick out less than you did the week before!

hgirl, I've been trying to perfect my lip trills too, the easiest note to do it on is C to D above middle C, and then the whole crotchet, quaver, triplet quaver, semi quaver, trill progression.

lip trills are hard...

QUOTE (cheeble @ Oct 19 2004, 06:31 PM)

lip trills are hard...

Tell me about it!
Hornplayer, I have been doing that exercise, and slow progress is being made! I can do a passable one on the C above middle C, but for the Mozart I have to do one on the G below that, and it's much harder. It's sooo frustrating!

I play a Yamaha 668 by the way. It's not very good- dodgy valves (like all yamahas I've ever heard of!) but it's not mine. I'm getting my own one soon-hopefully!

get a holton horn, you know you wanna............

mine's a besson student compensating double and it does me just fine although it confuses people because it doesn't have much tubing...

i like holtons too!

less tubing means you're playing a less heavy horn!!!!

that was the advantage of having a compensationg horn was i first started, i wasnt "allowed" a proper double horn til i was at least 13.

QUOTE (hornplayer @ Nov 25 2004, 03:11 PM)

less tubing means you're playing a less heavy horn!!!! that was the advantage of having a compensationg horn was i first started, i wasnt "allowed" a proper double horn til i was at least 13.

heh I probably won't get a full double until I'm very rich but I like having a light instrument

QUOTE (cheeble @ Nov 27 2004, 02:27 PM)

heh I probably won't get a full double until I'm very rich but I like having a light instrument

Consider getting a five-valve single Bb. My (old) Alexander catalogue has one (Model 97) which was, and probably still is, about 4/5 of the price of the compensating Model 102 and the celebrated 103, and would probably be even lighter than the compensator. The two extra valves can be two thumb valves or one thumb valve (which I shall label T) and a fourth finger valve (4). You tune T to the length of a semitone valve on the F side (or you can take out a pair of spacer tubes to give Bb semitone length), and 4 for a fourth down, to give you the length of an F horn. The main purpose of the first length is to give you accurate tuning when stopped (the semitone valve on the Bb side is too short), but it can also be used for more accurate tuning of low notes in conjunction with 4. My theoretical table has:

Length Fingering
E .......... T4
Eb ........ 124 or 34
D .......... T34
C# ....... 1234
C .......... T1234

You can't get a correct B basso length with this system. The only note that requires it is written F#(for F horn) at the bottom of the bass clef (new notation). That is a note that is rarely required and can easily be faked with hand and lip. Otherwise, this system gives you all the lengths of the double horn, plus a few more for subtle variation of the tuning.

I have never played one of these, so I don't know whether its quality matches the weltbekannte Model 103, but the windway goes through the same number of valves as on a full double, so I don't see any obvious reason why it would be worse.

sounds interesting... what kind of price range does a model like this come in?

QUOTE (cheeble @ Dec 3 2004, 11:13 AM)

sounds interesting... what kind of price range does a model like this come in?

I would guess about 80% of the price of the best full double from any particular supplier. I think it unlikely that it is available in anything cheaper than full professional quality: it is only marginally suitable for teaching beginners.

I just looked at the Alexanders website at http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...sl=de&u=http://
www.musik-alexander.de/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAlexander%2Bhorn%2BMainz%26hl%3
Den%26lr%3Dlang_de%26sa%3DG%26as_qdr%3Dall
(I have had to put that on three lines, but you have to join it up again. It might be easier for you to search on "Alexander" "Mainz" "Horn" and choose "Translate") and was able to confirm that the Model 97 is still available, but could not find the price. I have asked Alexanders for the current price, comparative weights of the 97 and their double and compensating horns, and whether there is a British stockist of this model.

Whenever I have looked at them (not recently) London shops have seemed to be keener on Paxmans, Yamahas and Conns, plus the occasional Hoyer and Kruspe, but Eddie Moors in Boscombe (part of Bournemouth) used to claim that he was the last remaining UK importer of Alexanders. If you have easy web access (which you presumably have, since you contribute to the fora so enthusiastically) you could do a Google search on these other names + "horn" to see whether any of them does a 5-valve single. Please tell us if you find anything.

I have been surfing various horn sites, looking for second-hand five-valve single Bb horns, with total lack of success so far. I shall enquire in various places to try to discover if there is any good reason for this. It may be just fashion, the wide-spread assumption that the right instrument for professional performers is the full double in Bb and F, or the Paxman Triple, for virtuoso players with strong right arms. Four-valve singles (where you have either the muting length or the F length, but not both, under the thumb valve) are available, typically at prices between £1000 and £2500. An extra valve will add £200 to £300 to that.

Update to previous: Paxman's Horn Shop (used to be in London; is it still?) appears to be stocking lots of Alexanders again, not just the odd second-hand.

There is a horn mailing list on which I posted a question about the five-valve single, and I have just received three encouraging replies from people who had played one and liked it. The model with fifth valve under the little finger was originally developed by Lorenzo Sansone and was made by Alexanders before WW2. One of my correspondents said that they had been used in Hollywood during the 30s & 40s by Alfred Brain, Dennis's uncle, and Vincente De Rosa. Other manufacturers have been King (US) and Kruspe (German and the first to design a double horn, albeit not a successful one, c. 1900). Alexanders still make both models of the 97, though the little finger lever is to special order only and slightly more expensive (which it wasn't in 1972). They referred me to Paxmans for prices and wrote nothing about weight, though I had asked about both.

One point that came up was the suggestion that you could slot extra tubing into the muting valve position to fill in the gap at the bottom (written F#, bottom of bass clef). You would have to think about that, as it would mean that some of the fingerings for the other low notes would have to change. Also, it leaves you with difficulties if you have to play stopped in the same movement, because there is no combination of the other four valves that gives you the right length for it: the semitone valve on a Bb instrument is shorter than the amount by which the hand shortens the effective length of the instrument, and the tone valve is too long. On a full double without a hand stopping valve, you should always play stopped passages on the F side because of this.