My daughter has played very well on a Stentor II (1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 sizes) over the last 2 and a half years. Now that she is grade 5 standard and approaching the time when she will need a full size instrument I would like to buy her a really good violin which will see her through to grade 8 and beyond.

Can you please let me know:
1. what sort of budget I should have in mind?
2. where can I get one from?
3. how do you go about choosing one?
4. is there any way of checking that the price you reflects its true value?

Thanks for any help with this as I don't know where to start. We bought the Stentors over the internet from normans.

Hi there,

The best thing is to go to a dealer and try out a load of fiddles until she finds one she likes - don't forget to put aside some budget for a good bow too.

You should be able to get something that will take her to grade 8 for around 700 UK, I would think - or for a couple of thousand, something that will take her beyond that - the bow should be between one third and one half of the value of the fiddle.

All this, though, is just a guideline, you may find that she falls in love with a fiddle or bow that costs less or more - it's all to do with how well the instrument and bow handle.

Best of luck !

Allan

I had the same idea, too, when my son was obviously growing out of his 3/4 instrument. He got his full-size violin 2 weeks before his Grade 5 exam, and insisted on using it in the exam...

Looking back, I think we tried too hard to get a violin that would "last" him through adulthood. Although he knew enough to choose something that sounded OK, he didn't know enough to choose a well-constructed instrument, and we ended up replacing it after less than 4 years.

If there is a good range of violins available through all price ranges, it might be worth looking hard at the "reliable but not stunning" end of the market - a violin that you are not afraid to take outdoors, or that you will be able to sell without worrying about how many thousands of pounds you will gain or lose, has its own value, and you and your daughter can take your time choosing a really nice violin instead of being pressured by the need to decide on a full-size violin before she grows out of a smaller size.

Of course, if she falls in love with a particular violin, all the theory goes out the window!

I'm only going to address number 4. And the answer to that is, in practical terms for most people, only with a new violin. The obvious considerations are: don't assume the nationality of the violin according to the name, ask where it is made. Check prices against other retailers offering the same product, but do allow for differences in set-up (though at the price range you are looking at, you're likely to be lookign at specialist shops anyway so that is less of an issue). With old violins you can't compare prices like with like, unless you are sufficiently expert to know how much they would sell for at auction - and of course the auctions are where dealers get their violins from, the price there would be far less than you would pay in a shop. But you would be taking a risk at an auction (including ebay) if you didn't know what you were doing.

The complication is that price does not directly affect tone and vice versa. For example the Germans just don't compete these days at prices around £300-£400 (I know you are looking higher than this). Another complication is that you can change an awful lot on a violin by changing the set up. And a further complication is that most players at grade 5 want something quite different to that which they will want if they end up at Diploma level. One thing that I find mildly distressing is when I hear from a parent that "the child loved the violin and I loved the sound of it but the teacher said it would only be good enough for the next couple of years" and they end up buying something that is loud, bright and resonant just because that is what the teacher likes. I think the player is the one to do the choosing!

Do take the violin on approval - in fact, take several on approval, and (despite what I said above) do get the teacher's opinion. A few teachers get a "kick back" from their favourite shop, but most don't and will be prepared to give you an honest and unbiased opinion.

Liz

This is a good point - at G4/5 level, she's still very much a beginner so might not be able to choose (or handle, for that matter) an advanced instrument.

Like allears says - maybe go for something reliable and easy to resell so that once she's a bit more advanced she can look at the question again.

this is only from my personal experience.

at grade 4/5, i got a violin that was about £600, and a bow about £100. this lasted me until i did my grade 7, as i was told that it would when i bought it, but for grade 8 i really needed something better.

The violin i play now was considerably more expensive, so if you want a violin that will take her past grade 8 you'd probably be looking at about £2000, though at grade 5, is that really something you want to spend?

Where you get it depends on where you live, ask her teacher for recommendations.

good luck
x

Agree - and the difference between a Stentor 2 and something priced in thousands is going to be so huge that I think you are going to find it very difficult to make a decision.

Liz

I have recently done this for my child, and it was quite stressful as I don't really know what I am looking at.

Things we did -

We decided on a budget and only asked to see things in that budget.

We went to a dealer, with a more knowlegable friend, and the child played all of the violins offered to us in pairs :

so she would play one, then another, decide which one of the two was best, and put the lesser one back on the shelf.

Then she would compare the first to the third, and put the loser of this round back on the shelf.

Thus we arrived at the top one or two from that dealer or shop.

Then comes the problem - how do you compare with a violin from somewhere else.

What we did is with the kind help of the shops, was borrow the top one or two from a shop, and then go to another shop and go through the same process.

Then at home we were able to compare the top ones from two shops, and compared them and returned the ones we liked least.

And so on - it was quite an iterative process, and could have gone on for ever - but we only did it for a couple of shops.

The interesting thing was that when we got our two favourites home from one shop, and played them at home for a few days, we changed our mind about which one we preferred.

I felt very underqualified to do all this, but the result seems nice.

It took quite a lot of time.

A more sensible way might be just to do this on one shop and take the best that it offers.

Anyway - we love our new violin (luckily).

This is a very valid and important point. The acoustics have a huge effect on what you hear. I too have had customers take violins home and then change their minds about which one they like. Having violins on approval really is a must.

Liz

Thank you so much for all your helpful posts.

I don't want to spend lots of money on an instrument that will be redundant in a couple of years so I wanted to get the best possible for her level. But from what you are saying there is another step between the stentor and a really good violin. I guess we could part exchange the next one for the one after that.

Thank you for reminding me about the bow which had never occurred to me.

Thank you also for suggesting that we take a couple home to try out (do they ask you to pay for them or how does it work?)

Next question - how do you find a dealer (sorry I would ask the teacher but she is not around for the next 2 months) - is there a single place where they advertise? Are they quite honest or do you need to ensure you are not being ripped off if you do not know anything about violins?

We got my daughter a nice violin about 4 years ago..

We went to the violin shop in Blackpool which was recomended to us.

We had planned to spend about £400-500..

We ended up spending nearly £1000 in total.

The case was 2nd hand but in almost perfect condition and cost about £30. The bow cost about £80.

The violin had been repaired in the past which meant it was a much nicer violin than we'd have otherwise got. It sounds really nice. It sounded much nicer than the other ones in the price range.

So find a good shop.. Take your time and TRY every one you fancy.. We must have been in the shop for a good 2-3 hours... I was bored stiff haha!

The violin still sounds really good but we've had problems with the bow and the case has had to be fixed a few times... Kids are rough!

You can easily get something for a few hundred pounds that will do her up to grade 8 - a gliga gama, well set up will do the job, as will one of the Yitamusic T20 fiddles - then there are loads of old factory fiddles and workshop fiddles that you can get for between 400 and 1500 that will also do the job nicely.

Don't base it entirely on sound, though - after a certain level, all fiddles sound good enough for the purpose - and masses of difference to sound can be made by altering set up and using a different bow - go instead for a fiddle that plays well, smoothly across all the strings with a good upper and lower range (try different positions too) - a fiddle that requires a bit more hard work to get a pleasant sound may even help her improve her technique (my own old French violin is a stunner, but if you put it in the hands of a beginner it would sound like a dying cat - you have to coax the sound out - it forced me to improve my technique by leaps and bounds).

As for dealer recommendations - where are you based?

Allan

(oh - and for the trying of fiddles, usually they ask you to pay for insurance whilst you have them on loan).

I can recommend Steephill Strings Lincoln, he is always happy to help and have a chat. You could make a day of it!


http://www.sutherlandviolin.com

I bought a violin for £450 and the luthier said it would last me for my grade 8. It's a really nice violin considering it wasn't that expensive - i have a bow that was £100 too. Although next May i'm getting a new violin for about £2000 (present for my 18th birthday! ) - which is gonna be probably a couple of months before my grade 8. But i could do my grade 8 on this £450 violin if i wanted to - said the luthier and my teacher anyway

Try and get in touch with your daughter's teacher if at all possible. She knows your daughter's playing style better than anyone, what her strengths and weaker areas are, and what sort of instrument will suit her best to enable your daughter to progress in the best possible way.

Your teacher will also, almost certainly , have good contacts with the dealers in your area and will be able to advise you. I am a violin teacher myself and see the moving up a step in instrument terms for a pupil as a fantastic opportunity (and one which -sadly- doesn't come often enough for most people). When a pupil is ready for an improving violin I have a careful chat to parents about what sort of budget they are prepared to stretch to and what sort of things will be important. I then suggest where they might look, both locally (I am in the East Midlands) and elsewhere if they are prepared to look further affield. As I am often in and out of our local dealers I try to have an idea of what is available when I expect a child will be trading up and will sometimes take out a couple of violins for the child to try in a lesson.

Allan mentioned Elida and Yitamusic violins. Something like this may well suit your needs and budget at the moment. They are excellent 'transitional' instruments, although at grade 5 and forging ahead I would recommend that you invest in a serious bow (possibly a dorfler, Raposo, or even one of the better Coda carbon fibre bows) with a good strong stick which will help your daughter to forge ahead.

Just one thing to bear in mind with part exchanges - the most generous part exchange deals are not quite as good as they seem. A dealer who offers 100% part exchange may sound great but the bottom line is he can't keep selling violins at no profit so all it means is the markup is higher on the next one you buy. Very high trade-in promises effectively tie you in to one dealer because no dealer is going to offer a high trade-in on a violin purchased from a rival (unless he wants to sell you something at a huge mark-up of course). Bottom line is, it's a business and it has to make a profit. Just bear that in mind and you'll be fine.



Not sure I can answer for every dealer but I guess we are fairly typical. We ask for card details, some require a cheque to cover the full amount of what you take on approval. I have also heard of dealers asking for payment of a small insurance premium. It goes without saying of course that you are responsible for returning unwanted violins at your own expense, and some dealers will (or at least say they will) charge your card / present your cheque unless you return the instrument within the specified time period. I doubt if that is common though since chargebacks would cause too many problems. We call customers after the approval period is up and ask them if they have made a decision, I suspect that is the norm. Sometimes they need extra time - the record so far is over four months but we certainly would not want to encourage that!!



Just do a google search or go for recommendations.



Reputation probably counts for a lot here. I would feel inclined to beware of any dealer who wants to talk you up into a higher price bracket or who gives you instruments to try that he knows are above your budget. That said, you do occasionally get parents who are quite unrealistic in either direction - at one extreme, those who want to know if a £60 violin is a "professional instrument" (yes, honestly - ebay has a lot to answer for!) and when you say no, they say thanks very much, they'll keep looking. At the other extreme you get parents who want to spend hundreds of pounds on a 1/8 or 1/4 size violin that is going to last a couple of years at most.

Liz

For dealers in London we found a huge variety.

There are music shops that sell a few violins - possibly old ones as well.

There are specialist violin shops in glamorous west end locations selling and renting violins both new and old.

There are violin and bow makers selling a number of violins.

There are also a number of well respected traders selling violins out of their own homes or workshops - these tend to have worked for major luthiers and have gone out on their own for a variety of reasons. The tend to sell
slightly more expensive ones, but also some more affordable ones.

All were extremely helpful - none put any pressure us.

The kind of violin that makes you work for the sound...

I think that a youngish child at around G5 level is not at that level - partly because of technique, and partly because of physical growth. When I think about the single thing that's changed most between son at G5/age 9 or 10 (can't quite remember) and G8/age 14, it would have to be the increased power in his bowhand, and consequently, the ability to make different sounds.

Also, back then he picked a violin which had a nice open sound in the middle registers (where he was mostly playing at that stage) but it didn't have the power in the higher positions, and he wasn't skilled enough to really test the violin thoroughly in those positions. It was not really old, maybe 30-50 years old, but I think a violin that age will sound very attractive to your daughter - the sound is easy to produce, but probably not over-bright. Viohazard's first full-size violin was an OK violin for the playing he was doing then (soundwise, it actually had other structural problems), but it wasn't a violin that would suit a skilled adult player.

It helps to have a teacher's opinion, for that reason, but even then, tastes differ. It might be worth making a foray out to try several violins as a trial run, and then waiting to see if the teacher is able to help with the actual purchase later on.

The "pick two or three, choose the best, pick two or three more" style seems to work well. One thing to consider is how your child is going to feel about trying violins in public. When Viohazard was 9 or 10 and we made our first trips to the "big" violin shops, we had a pep talk about how good it makes the violin dealer feel when they manage to match a customer with an instrument they love, so doing your best to get plenty of sound out of the instrument helps him or her to do a good job!

We also took a clean scarf or hanky to place on the shoulder, and handwipes (and a small towel to wipe off any alcohol left on the hands) in case any dealers were wary of small grubby hands! Also a notebook for Mum to note details and daughter's impressions, as she may forget. You may find that your daughter can't manage trying more than 2-3 violins - it's almost like a public performance for her, so she may need to retreat and have a change of scene, or even come back another day.

Take your own bow if possible (in fact take your own instrument to compare candidate violins with, if possible). Also try some other bows if possible.

The Finkel Atelier bow (i.e. not made by famous bowmaker but by workshop staff) that Viohazard got at that stage has served him well. Several people have mentioned good bows at reasonable prices in the Strings forum recently too, so take a look!

To be honest, I've kind of made my peace with the fair price issue. You can only buy a violin that you can physically get hold of and try, so in the end you have to pay the prices that are prevalent.

As Liz says, the trade-in thing isn't always what it looks like. I know very well that Viohazard's new violin was not "100 less trade-in = 75" - the price of that maker's violins anywhere else was 75 or so, so essentially the trade-in was zero...

Notebook items: wonder if anybody more knowledgeable can suggest things to look at?

I'm sorry, but this stuff about the age of a violin determining its sound just isn't true. Most new violins sound a bit odd when they're first strung up, but the sound and response quickly stabilise (in a matter of hours) and the sound of the violin will "open up" with daily playing for a few weeks. After that, the violin will sound pretty much the same and as good as it ever will. The instrument may need the soundpost tightening (or replacing) after the "break in" period, but that's about it. The need for extensive and prolonged "playing in" is just a myth in my opinion. What is happening is that the player is getting used to the instrument, and learning (mostly subconsciously) how to get the best out of it, rather than the instrument itself changing.

Please note that I didn't say anything about "prolonged playing in"...and you say yourself that a new violin will sound different after a few weeks.

After hearing both new and "oldish" newly-acquired violins being "played in", I agree, the new violin DID sound different after a few weeks. It didn't sound the same as it had when first tried in the shop - much bigger difference than when the "oldish" (but newly put together) violin was acquired.

I do agree that it needs to sound good from the start, new or old.

I know you didn't say anything about playing in. That was me going off on one of my "and another thing" tangents. What you did say (or at least imply) was that violins of a certain age have a certain character of sound, which is what I vehemently disagree with. By the way, the development of a new violin's sound in the first few weeks of its life is quite subtle, and by the time it reached the dealer I would have expected it to be stable.

Not in my experience. I have repeatedly noticed a very significant improvement in sound in violins / violas that are sent to us as trade-ins, therefore 2-3 years old, over the sound of the new violins of the same brand.

Liz

All Ears, I couldn't have put it better from either a teacher or a parent's perspective.

You are spot on!

That's interesting. What differences do you hear?

Well, how do you describe tone? Basically louder and richer.

Liz

Based on a sample of how many instruments?

In my opinion people complicate things dreadfully when it comes to buying instruments for their children. I know I did myself when mine were younger. To get a full size violin that will serve them well from G5 to G8, all you need to do is spend 400-500 quid on one of the better Gliga models, get it set up well by a good repairer (who will also check that the neck angle is OK: I understand some of the Gligas have a problem with this).

Discopants - Liz is a violin dealer, so I'm guessing this is based on a relatively large sample of instruments - considerably larger, I would imagine - although correct me if I'm wrong - than your own experience.

post deleted because it was rude, apparently.

She said correct her, she didnt say correct her and be rude about, correct me, and rudely, if im wrong

Claudia's Mum.
Where are you? I have a very good and honest dealer in Oxford. Let me know if this might help. You could IM me and I will let you have his name and phone number.
Violinma

Similarly, if you're in striking distance of Cardiff, PM me.

To answer that, I'd have to count up how many trade-ins we have had. I'd guess a couple of dozen? But of those, the results are 100% "improved", 0% "no difference" or "worse". Since my playing hasn;t imrpoved for an awfully long time (quite the reverse in fact since I injured my shoulder three years ago), I can safely say it isn't the player. I find with the Gligas (which are the only brand on which I am qualified to comment) that the difference is approximately equivalent to moving up a model, so a three year old Gems sounds like a Gama. I see no reason why it should not be the same with other brands.

How long the improvement continues I cannot say. I have read makers' websites which talk about getting 95% of the tone you are ever going to get, in the first two years. But short of being able to build time machines, I don't see how anyone is ever going to be able to prove anything much about changes in a time period longer that a decade or so.

Liz