I don't *feel* as if I'm suffering from post-exam blues because I'm still practising as much and trying lots of new stuff and I'm still really excited about it all, but at the back of my mind there's a bit of a niggle...

I suspect there's a time which I haven't yet reached (I've just taken G4 clarinet) when things subtly change... Up to around Grade X, I suspect that there are a series of hurdles to overcome in terms of what you need to learn technically, and you get the satisfaction of making marked progress relatively regularly. But at some point I suspect that you stop making regular marked progress, and hours/days/weeks(?) are spent on perfecting the subtle nuances of one bar, one phrase, one section. Will it be as satisfying as the progress you can see yourself making in earlier days, or will it lead to frustration and despair because you go so long without feeling as if you are getting anywhere....

I don't know why this is on my mind because I might never get there anyway! But if I try and work out why it's on my mind, then I suppose I'm thinking that if it does lead to frustration and despair, why would I want to do it when I'm not planning to make a career out of music or be an orchestral player etc. And if I don't do it, does that mean I'll never be a decent player... or does it mean that I might still learn to be a decent player, but not an outstanding one??? And at what point does it happen that you stop making regular marked progress and start concentrating on the barely detectable subtle nuances of the piece? I don't want to fall by the wayside, but I'm not sure I've got it in me to put up with the frustration and despair that not making regular marked progress might lead to I don't have aspirations to be an outstanding player, just a decent one...

I should add that I don't have a problem with subtle nuances per se - my line of work is partly concerned with subtle nuances and I know how important they are to the overall effect. The difference is that in my work, I know instinctively what subtle nuances would improve the job and I can change things immediately - I don't have to spend hours/days/weeks thinking about it and practising it. I don't think it's the same with music, even for professional players - they might know what they want to achieve, but they still have to spend a long time practising it to perfection.

Sorry for the ramble. Does anyone else feel this way or has anyone got any thoughts on the matter???

Or is it just post-exam blues after all?

Hi Skylark,

Firstly, congratulations on taking your exam!! Hope all went well!!
My advice would be not to think about the next grades too much at this stage or how technically challenging things will become but keep enjoying learning and playing. When I first started playing the piano I used to be able to learn several pieces in a week. Lately I've been doing pieces that are about grade 5/6 level and much harder. It now takes me about 3/4 weeks to learn one piece (and will probably take me another few years to play them REALLY well) but even though it is taking that much longer because pieces are more technically challenging I wouldn't say it is frustrating at all. It can be so rewarding when you finally get a section to sound well and when that happens you really feel connected to the music you play. I also do it for pleasure and the more I play the more rewarding I find it becomes. So don't give up!!! or try to think about timescales for grades just now but keep enjoying learning and playing not matter how long it takes to learn. It is very hard to describe the feeling you get when you finally get to play a piece you've been practising for ages properly but it is well worth the effort you put into it!!!

Many moons ago when I was having a similar gripe about such things, my then teacher said.....'Actually as it gets more challenging, it becomes far more interesting'. And she was right. You're still looking at things from a 'not having quite got there, but I can see it on the horizon perspective'. Once you're there, fully experiencing those challenges, your practice and focus will change accordingly. It gets harder,but it gets better...........if you see what I mean.

I'm already doing that and think it's not necessarily something that suddenly happens.
You can start do do it quite early on and in fairly simple ways like thinking about where and how dynamic changes might be used effectively or where it might make musical sense to incorporate a rit.
How much you consider the nuances is something that develops with everything else.
Most of my clarinet work is aimed at improving and consolidating the basic techniques that allow me to make the best possible sound ALL the time but thinking about how each phrase should be played is also a part of things.

Your post has gotten me thinking about how I learn a piece, skylark! As a memoriser, I have a tendency to use the 'bar by bar' approach anyhow. I won't move onto the next section until the fingering is secure - and I guess this also allows me, as I then play from 'autopilot', to concentrate on expression.

It's certainly harder to memorise now that I've reached the 'advanced' grades! And not surprisingly I am not progressing as far with a piece during my (occasional ) 1-2 hours practice sessions as I did in the past. Realistically I need to be at the piano for 2-3 hours a day to achieve the same level of progression but that is not possible with my other commitments (unless the piece happens to be quite repetitive with regular fingering patterns like Maple Leaf Rag). And I have taken up violin which eats into practice time! I'm waiting to see how far I progress with two instruments........

I'm 'resigned' (for wont of a better word) to a slower rate of progress with piano - but, as I've stated in another thread, although there may not be much visible progress from week to week, it is cumulative. You'll notice differences when you go back to an old piece and can inject more of yourself into it. And there's nothing like the feeling you get when you finally crack a 'heart-sink' piece - and you wonder why you made such a fuss to begin with!

Love Tortoise

xxx

*good luck with your results*

Hope you did well in the exam, Skylark

Well I'm in both situations at once. I could spend a whole hour trying (and not always succeeding) to "perfect" like 12 bars of a Bach fugue on the piano. Although the progress isn't dramatic I do feel I still learn something new with every practice session (and lesson). I find it challenging rather than frustrating trying to make the fugue sound like I want it to (and having to think about how I want it to sound like in the first place). I think the "progress" here isn't only in terms of technique but also interpretation, (really) listening, etc, all of which make things much more interesting.

On the other hand I just took up the harp and am making visible progress. I can perfect, say, a new piece within half an hour and am already playing G1 pieces after about 2 months of lessons. However, apart from getting the notes (crotchets only!) right and adding a bit of dynamics, there's little else I could do to interpret/reinterpret/add to "pussy cat, pussy cat, where have you been?". Yes its nice to know I can quickly move on to "the jolly peasant" (with quavers and crotchets!) but I feel it's very tick-the-box (ok, you've learned to play with 2 fingers; now you're to learn 3 fingers and so on) and to me this is less fun.

Don't worry about it too much, me thinks. I'm sure you'll enjoy it when you get there. If not, you can always learn another new instrument!

Thanks for all the encouraging thoughts - I'll try to stop looking too far ahead and thinking too much about it. Sometimes you read things on here that set you thinking, but it's probably a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing, and you don't get the full picture and because I'm looking at it from below, rather than from above like many of you, I don't see it in perspective. Like you've all said, I'll probably enjoy it when I get there (assuming I do !) and I should just let things take their course.

And I particularly like this thought...

Skylark, I don't know whether you'll see it as good news or bad, but there isn't really a "there".
Each stage of learning brings new ideas of what to do next, what directions to take. And the more you do, the more choices open up. It's possible (and a bit scary) to end up like a kid in a sweetshop with so much choice before you - do you want to do more jazz and improvisation, more classical grades, try a new instrument, try composing or conducting, study more theory or history or analysis, play in ensembles......or all of those and then some!

Not long ago I compared my current list of things I'd like to try out with one I wrote a couple of years ago, and was staggered at the extra items that had sneaked in somehow. Not many had dropped out, though.

Another thing to bear in mind is that musical progress always goes in fits and starts. Sometimes there are plateau periods. I know I had one, a plateau that lasted about 18 months, when I felt that not only was I not progressing but was actually going backwards a bit. Thankfully it passed and since I came out of it my progress has been at a pace that has surprised me. What did happen while I was in the plateau was that I turned my energies to other musical activities, so I'm a better rounded musician now than I was when the plateau started.

As far as the question of how long one spends on pieces goes: I certainly find that I am still learning some (relatively straightforward) pieces in a fairly short time, but also have works on the go that do take a lot longer to master and will take considerable time to polish up after that. I think it's important to have a few "quick wins" along with bigger fare - stops me getting totally bogged down.


Good luck with whatever you do next.

I, too, have found this thread rather comforting as I've been feeling much the same way with my organ studies. I'm preparing for my grade 7, although have just learnt a diploma-level piece (P+F in C BWV545), and am in general finding it a bit of a "slog". I remember that the same was true when I got to this level on the piano, but that was 20 years ago when I was a teenager and progress just was much faster then and hence I was more motivated.

My logical mind tells me that progress just is much slower at the advanced grades ... but I am really missing the sense of rapid progress that I had up until now.

Anyway, I'm rambling, but as I said: thanks for the comforting thread.

David.

It's useful to know that other people feel like this - I find it very dispiriting when progress slows down as the material gets harder. I have certainly felt like giving up lessons recently because of this, and I don't have the time to do the work that might speed things up a bit.
One problem is that the more you can do, the more you know how much you still can't do! (and are never likely to do either!)

I wonder if this is the point at which many people stop learning.
N

I think the teacher's skill is called upon here - to ensure that, whilst the challenges of harder material are still set, there are also pieces which are easier and which consolidate previous learning.

Obviously, the teacher is always going to be pushing on one more little step harder/more challenging, so it is often going to feel as if one is not improving.

I always tell students it's a bit like climbing a hill. You keep plodding upwards and the summit never seems to get any nearer; it's only when you look down that you realise how far you have climbed!

And regarding your last sentence above - I think this is always the case! When we don't know anything about a subject, it all seems very straightforward - but the more we learn, the more we realise there is to learn, and what a vast subject it is that we're studying.

We just need to see this as a positive rather than a negative!

Best of luck to all and keep persevering!

I agree very much with Cyrilla's post, in that a good teacher will always set easier material as well as the challenging stuff otherwise the student will always feel they're climbing a mountain with no plateaux let alone top.

In a practice session try to divide your time up into

scales
studies
new or most recent challenging piece
an old piece you can play really well to be played for sheer pleasure

This is one of the best ways to keep your morale up. Also try to practise in short sessions of maybe twenty minutes rather than one long one to avoid feeling you're banging your head against a brick wall for any length of time. So in a twenty minute practice you could do five minutes each of the above, or divide it up any way you like, but do make sure you play something you can play really easily every day, otherwise you're not seeing the fruits of your achievement often enough.

Also, do you play with other people at all? If not, try and find people to play with for pleasure - after all this is what it's ultimately all about!

One last thing - this feeling of despondency often comes just before a major (or minor) breakthrough so try to see the bigger picture - you don't know what's just round the corner!

Hi Skylark,

I can't add too much more to the words already written by others. Suffice to say that the subtle nuances become increasingly fascinating. In my case, the more I learn the more I realise how very much more there is still to be learnt. Which is nice in a way, because it means I'm never going to run out of stuff.
If that makes sense?



Ambs xx

That's what I meant about seeing this as a positive!

There can't be many pursuits more endlessly challenging and fascinating than learning a musical instrument, can there? And even when you've reached a certain standard there's always, always, always more to learn...

This is fascinating. I don't believe that "progress" ever stops. So long as you are working at your music in the right way. Possibly your dexterity reaches a level where it seems stalled, but that is often a "plateau effect" and with time and faith you will eventually start to climb again. But even without that there are many other dimensions to musical development, as well as pure technical proficiency in the sense of being able to play difficult-to-reach patterns of notes at impressive speeds.

I am not so self-deluded as to think that I have any chance of becoming a world-class virtuoso nor, having left it very late, of developing an especially wide performance repertoire, but I have great hopes for some kind of future as a professional, and this is why:

Sometimes I am enraptured by a (piano) recital, but more and more often I am disappointed. This is almost always the case when I hear young music graduates, and even the potential superstars with their new master's degrees, but it is often true of famous and well established artists too.

They can play super fast, super smooth or with any degree of staccato, and note perfect. Their memories are prodigious. They make a beautiful tone, have bravura, and presence ... and yet, so very often often there is no message, no communication. They don't seem to have understood what the composer was getting at. This is almost always true when they attempt pieces that are not very difficult to play. They sound like nothing. You can just tell that the performers haven't bothered to give them enough time and study to uncover the musical depths behind the easy-to-play notes. Or that they aren't capable of it - that in developing virtuosity they have failed to become musicians.

And I just know that if I, with my inadequate technique, and incomplete musical education, could play the same pieces for you, then despite the possibility of wrong notes and other mistakes, you'd understand more of what the music means, and you'd come to love it as much as I do.

I agree with Amber. What has lately dawned on me, well perhaps not dawned - more that it has become real and immediate, rather than some abstract idea - is that the great works of the classical composers have vast depth and are rich in subtleties - great unifying structures - unexpected echoes of themes - shifts of harmony that will melt your heart with the right timing, but do nothing if rushed - emotional turns in melodies that work only when the phrasing is exquisite - little touches of pure beauty. I will never tire of finding these, and of finding ways to realize them at the keyboard.

It is this that matters, and not impressing with a display of shallow virtuosity that reduces great masterpieces and musical performance to the level of a variety show act.

<-- No piano today

I find that really poetic

There are such opposite experiences and viewpoints here. I'm encouraged by the fact that some people find it increasingly fascinating to explore the higher reaches of the pieces they're learning, but at the same time, I can't help thinking that I'll be one of those who finds it too daunting But like others have said, I don't really know how I'll react when I get to that stage, I'll just have to take it a step at a time. And I feel better for thinking that there's a safety net - if I plateau and don't have it in me to carry on, then I think I'll be happy if I've got to a reasonable level on my clarinet and I'll then explore some more instruments. By reasonable level, I mean able to play in a way that friends and family can enjoy, and able to hold my own in a concert band or similar.

Perhaps what makes people carry on beyond the plateau is the desire to play at some sort of professional level. Or that might be the wrong way round - perhaps it's truer to say that you have the drive to become an outstanding player which leads to professional opportunities. Either way I don't think I have that desire, or if I'm honest, the musicality to be anything more than a reasonably competent player in a few years time. But I've got a long way to go before I even get to that stage, and so far the journey has been fantastic so I'll just keep on the same road until I reach the fork and then I'll no doubt have to decide whether to accept that I've reached my ceiling or carry on through the plateau...

Anyway it's been very thought-provoking reading all the responses, so thank you to everybody who's replied.

One step at a time is the best way Skylark. You eventually get to the next goal. Do you feel better about things now??
Having said that, I sometimes wonder if anyone can get to grade 8 for example. When I started 4 years ago, I thought Grade 5 was the pinnacle, but now I have it. It s much harder now, and I am quite despondent at the moment. Can Anyone get to Grade 8 if they put the practise in and have the interest? How much is talent and how much hard work? I think Mad Tom will say hard work is nearly all of it, and I was able to play a tune the minute I picked the flute up, so there is a talent there, but is it enough. Also is it enough to overcome being deaf too?
Beverley.

Just basing it purely on knowing what you can do, your enthusiasm and what I think you'll do in the future Bev - you'll go way beyond grade 5 I think.

... and now we know why Barry-Clari was voted "most supportive person". How beautifully put.

Thanks Barri. I feel much better now as my new teacher said at this morning's lesson, that he's never had anyone pick up a tune with no music to look at so quickly, and that my tone had improved a great deal in the last 8 weeks. We were improvising and also copying a Jethro Tull jazzy number, and I could play it quite quickly.
Tom, Barri is very supportive he even came to the flute shop in London to listen to which flute I made the nicest noise on. I can't tell that , but it did co-incide with the one that "felt" easiest to play. I should have more confidence.
Bev. In a much better mood.

Keep at it Bev; I've always found it good to take small steps at a time - success at one level can then spur you on to attempting more complex repertoire, and so on.
I thought Tom made a great point about a lot of todays younger players, some of whom may have great virtuosity but perhaps lack sufficient depth of understanding of the music, emphasising the fact that it's not so much the technical difficulty of pieces you are playing that matters most, but rather what you do with the music.
For example, I heard an older Russian pianist on an old video play a Chopin prelude which had a technical level of about grade 4/5, but his performance of it was more like Fellowship level - absolutely beautiful and heart-rending!
Good luck!

So Looney Tunes - how much does a 2nd instrument eat into your practice time? Do you practice both every day or alternate. This is something I've been thinking about as I want to learn Piano too, but I don't think I've got the time to do a 2nd instrument justice.


How are you feeling now Skylark? - it's almost a month since this post started. Do you feel you've progressed since your exam?

I'm still having lessons over the summer and I've only just realised what a good job my teacher does of making me feel good about my playing, I did an exam at the beginning of July and feel I've come a long way since then as I've been playing lots more stuff - just before the exam I spent too long on the 3 pieces and not enough on other stuff so this month has been invaluable.

As for things slowing down - well they are but the amount I feel I can contribute has increased I find myself thinking about my tone and how I sound more now (at G3/4) that I did at G1/2 when getting the notes and timing right was just about all I could do.

Thanks for asking smd. Since I last posted there have been big changes - I've changed clarinet teacher and also taken up piano lessons, not for the reason given above but to help with understanding harmony and composition for my Grade 6 theory, although having got it for theory reasons, I've discovered I love it!! I think when I posted I must have been sub-consciously feeling the effects of my clarinet lessons having become very negative and very discouraging. My new teacher is lovely and as well as giving me a lot of advice on improving my tone, she's also trying to get my confidence back. My piano teacher has done wonders for my confidence as well - yesterday, my second lesson, he told me that I was going to be "a joy to teach" (although he probably says that to all his new students ). So in spite of a really bad exam result (I did pass but a lot lower mark than I expected), I do feel more positive about what I might be able to achieve on the music front.

As far as practising two instruments goes, I've tried not to let my new baby affect my clarinet time, although like with any new baby, there's the excitement of a new arrival. I'm going to make myself get a bit more disciplined with it though, if only because I'm a bit worried about overdoing it from a tendonitis point of view Mostly I've cut down on other things though in order to fit both instruments in.

You sound as if you're doing really well smd

Glad you are feeling better Skylark.
I love the piano too, and eventually you will shareyour time evenly, but at first the piano took precedence.
Bev

Thanks, and yes I do need to get the balance back, but I will! I'm going to work out a new practice regime over the weekend

Glad everything is going well for you SkyLark.

I'm not sure but I think exams aren't good for me - I felt awful the first few days after my exam and couldn't play anything well, even though I thought the exam had gone well, its amazing how much impact getting a pass or fail makes to your confidence even though in reality it makes no difference to your playing.

I love the comment that you've cut down on other things to fit both instruments in - I fully admit I am addicted to playing the Clarinet - If I'm not playing I'm looking for music/books/orchestras etc or I'm on here. So I've already cut down on other stuff - still I'm sure I'll find something else that can give!

Regretfully this is one of the things I've been cutting down on but sadly it's impossible to do *everything*



The other thing I cut down on a long time ago was shopping. Either food shopping after work - I now tend to buy things in 5 minutes from a corner shop instead of going to a mega-store - by the time I'd driven round looking for a parking space, walked round the store, queued and got back to my car again, I'd often spent upwards of an hour. Also Saturday shopping in town - I can't remember the last time I went and I haven't missed it. Having said that I'm thinking of going to York tomorrow, but mainly because I want to go to Banks music shop - if anyone else is going to be there and wants to meet up for a coffee in their coffee shop, send me a PM!

Sounds a lovely idea. Just a bit too far for me to come unfortunately!



Ambs x

Funny you should say that - I've got a free day all to myself tomorrow and although I'd love to play all day I can only really keep going for about 2 hours so I was thinking I might visit the music shop, but unfortunatly York is too far away.
I also agree that normal 'Saturday' shopping as you call it is not missed - in fact quite the opposite, especially during the school holidays when everywhere seems too busy and hot, plus too much 'elevator music'.

Someone's sent me an email saying that the coffee shop closed recently, which is a great shame because it's easy to spend several hours in Banks and you need to have a break and a sit down!