After nearly 5 years intense and concentrated effort I plan to have my Grade 8 Piano before year's end.

Of course, instead of focusing on that goal, I am already thinking about getting a DipABRSM.

Is DipABRSM also a realistic goal for the middle-aged, started way too late crowd or is that pushing things a bit? I know there is no way I could memorize a quality 35 minute program today, but that doesn't mean I won't be able to 3 or 4 years from now...It has taken me 1 1/2 to 3 hours a day of work to get where I am now and I do think I can keep up that pace...

My teacher doesn't know about my plans and joked that "I think you will eventually be able to pass Grade 8 with flying colours, but I don't know if I would recommend you to go on to a Grade 9 if it were to exist. Maybe you could just enjoy playing instead?" Oops.

I bet katyjay could give you the answer you want on this one


You don't have to perform from memory, but if you do, be prepared to talk about it in the viva.


DipABRSM is far more than Grade IX </standard response>

By all means have it as a goal, but there's a huge leap between Grade VIII and a diploma. If you need a goal to work towards, why not have a look at a music festival, forum concert or (if you want to do more exams) the TG Performers' Certificate first?

I see Deborah called my name

Yes, diplomas are for brilliant young people. I was a brilliant young 35 year old when I started singing lessons, got my first diploma at the brilliant young age of 37, and was a brilliant young 40-year old by the time I got my third diploma - the teaching one.

There are other people on this board who are a bit older than me (albeit still brilliant and young in their forties or fifties) who have got diplomas fairly recently, but I'm not going to give their names for fear of a clip round the ear'ole that I dare give their ages away.....


In the mean time I've also got to grade 8 on my second instrument and grade 5 on two others. Whether or not I end up competent enough to be doing diplomas in those instruments, time will tell.....


Deborah's advice is absolutely right. There is a tidy step up between grade 8 and a diploma, and there are lots of other things one could do in the mean time. Enjoy your music, whatever direction you choose to take.

Since my age is given in my profile anyway...

..yep, I got a diploma at forty-one, after four years of lessons, and with a good mark too, and am neither brilliant nor exactly young: I do work hard at my music, listen to a lot and have some degree of natural dexterity, but that's all, so it can be done.

Go for it, if you want to, but I'd echo the others, it is still a bit of a jump up from grade 8 .

The straight answer to your question is "No - they are for everyone"

Starting young is a big advantage, and essential if you want your name writen all over the history books, but otherwise you can start late and still go a long long way

What I have (belatedly) discovered is that the main ingredient of musical excellence is not that elusive thing called "talent". You need enough of it, but enough means:

1. Normal hearing
2. Reasonable intelligence
3. Normal dexterity and co-ordination.

If you have those then you must add to them

4. A deep and strong love of music

(That includes listening to music, making music, and of practicing the skills you need to make music)

Then add in three more essentials (and the later you start the more important these become). And these are the three over which you have most control:

5. Good tuition
6. Efficient methods of practice and study
7. Hard work and persistence

Number 7 goes a long way towards making up for any other deficiencies!

So go for it.

Katyjay - I think you've just become my inspiration.
Am I reading this right? you went from 1st lesson to Diploma in 2 years? and to a teaching diploma in 5? That sound's incredible.
I'm really new to all this stuff - having just sat G3 Clarinet after 6 months, but I am completly addicted, and am sitting here today - probably with a bit of post exam blues thinking about where I go from here. I was thinking it would take a couple more years to get to G6 but now I'm itching to reduce that timescale....

Also a note to MadTom, I liked your list of requirements - Do you have any tips on getting no. 5 Good Tution? How do I know if my teacher is Good? I thought my teacher was good, but now they are leaving and I need to find a new teacher, how do I find a good one?

Yes, I did go from having my first singing lesson in January 2003 to having an ATCL in December 2004. However I had sung in choirs about as long as I can remember, so it wasn't like learning totally from scratch, I could already read music and stuff like that.

Getting to grade 3 clarinet in 6 months sounds pretty impressive to me. And in any case, there's no race about it, so enjoy playing, enjoy building your repertoire and go for an exam if and when you feel ready for it, no matter how long it takes.

Well you are not a child. You know enough about life to recognize a good teacher when you find one.

But for the record:

A good teacher:

Is devoted above all else to music and musicians
May be a stunning performer, but still cares passionately about teaching
Does not view teaching as a necessary evil to make a living
Cares about you as a person
Does not belittle your goals - but gives you the confidence to believe that they are attainable
Doesn't point out all your errors at once
Points out your worst mistakes, but without destroying your confidence
Shows you things you'd never thought of that immediately make sense
Is a stickler for getting the fundamentals right
Gives you simple exercises that have magical effects
Understands why you find some things difficult, or are slow to pick them up
Always seems to know exactly what repertoire you need to study next
Can show you the right way to do things
Doesn't rush or hurry. Developing new skills takes as long as it takes
Strikes the right balance between letting you choose what to do, and telling you what you need to do
Uses memorable phrases that stick in your mind and come to your rescue when you are on your own
Sends you home from the lesson, energized, happy and inspired.

That is a description of my teacher. I am so lucky to have found her.

[/quote]

Yes, I did go from having my first singing lesson in January 2003 to having an ATCL in December 2004. However I had sung in choirs about as long as I can remember, so it wasn't like learning totally from scratch, I could already read music and stuff like that.

[/quote]
Wow! That is amazing.

Mad Tom, I love your description of a good teacher! It describes my son's clarinet teacher to a T! (With the possible exception of caring passionately about teaching - I think performing will always take priority for her)

I am gutted that now he's going to university, my son won't have lessons with her any more, but she says that after over 5 years, he has learnt most of what she has to teach, he knows now what she would say in a situation anyway, and it's time to move on. I wouldn't know where to start in advising him how to find someone half as good though!

Dragging this thread back on topic (which is about oldies taking diplomas......)

The point I think is important to take away from this is that starting to take your music seriously when you're well past leaving school age is far from impossible, and I don't believe that it limits what you can achieve in the long run. Early starters as well as late are highly unlikely to get to be international soloists, but building a decent musical career can still happen for anyone.

Can you define what this is? I guess 'decent' is a term which will have different meaning for different people. Can one really eek a living as a performer these days? The 'big names' obviously excepted, it is surely incredibly difficult to get the gigs, especially for classical music to make this a viable career for all but the top performers?

For me this is a small amount of performing and a larger amount of teaching. You are right that gigs are hard to come by, regardless of what age you start at.

Well, I'm 40 and working towards it now so I hope it is a realistic goal!

What's this about memorising? Have I missed that bit in the syllabus...? Is it all to be played from memory? Arghhhhhhhhhh!!!

Memorisation is not necessary AFAIK.

Phew!! I'm absolutely RUBBISH at it. I'd have a job playing Twinkle Twinkle under pressure, without music!! LOL

fantastic description, sounds like my teacher though just wanted to add:

-makes you feel good about your playing when you're having a confidence crisis a week before the exam
-makes you want to practice
-always believes in you

To get back to the "age thing". It's certainly possible to pass a diploma when you're well past middle age. I passed Dip-piano performance in 2006 when I'd just hit my 67th birthday. (I didn't play from memory.) I'd taken grade 6 when I was 13, grade 8 when I was around 40, and when I retired I decided to get back to serious piano practice.

I'm now working on the LRSM program, a two-year goal. During the next 18 months I'm planning on playing all my program, bit by bit, for an examiner at the Performance Asssessments to confirm that I'm improving beyond the Diploma level. I have a feeling that I may be playing more difficult music, but still at the Diploma level, much due to encroaching arthritis of the hands. However, my feeling is that even if I don't take the exam I've learned to play some great music really well so the time invested won't be wasted.

Fantastic. Now perhaps all those 30-somethings and 40-somethings will stop imagining they are "too old"

It seems to me a lot of people only hear the 'older' in 'growing older', and not the 'growing' bit.

As Jacqueline Piatigorsky said "keep growing, be lucky, grow until the end."

What does that mean?

Eermm........Keep growing (developing)......

I agree! I left 18 years between my L.T. and L.L - I 'scraped' both by one mark over the pass mark each time! (I fell down on my sonata each time - thank goodness for supporting tests! )
My wife, who was 'discouraged/prevented' even, from pursuing her musical career by her first husband (he even sold her violin!), is making up for 'lost time' now - she started doing violin diplomas when she was 27, and is currently doing diplomas in piano and viola, and thoroughly enjoying it! She is also working towards an FLCM in violin which she will sit in November. (aged 36) So there is life after 30!!
I'm 42 now, but still want to keep doing piano diplomas - I've spent two years trying to decide which one!
(.....shuffles off to 'procrastinator's anonymous' thread..)
I've always wanted to attempt a Fellowship diploma, but, having only 'scraped' my Licentiates, I wonder whether I should realistically try the LRSM in the hope of getting a more comfortable pass first of all?
I would welcome advice from anyone on the forums on this one - eg. how big is the jump from Licentiate to Fellowship level?
Best wishes to all those doing Diplomas - whatever the age!

I would have thought Mr Pickwicks definition would do nicely to describe a decent career, musical or otherwise:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery." David Copperfield. Chap. xii.

BTW: Next week I will be taking my grade 8 piano and If I don't pass and pass well it will be a disaster. After that I intend to work for the Dip ABRSM. I'm 10: At least, that's my shoe size, and I am often reading you should act your shoe size not your age!

Afterthought on this one - I could act my surgical glove size: 7 1/2!

I got my grades before I was 19, my degree aged 21, my advanced certificate in singing aged 22.

Then my LRSM last year at the tender age of 37.

I aim to take my FRSM next year when I am 39 with the aim of passing it as a 40th Birthday Pressie.

Must work on QS to do that as that's the achillies heal.

Written work and Viva's are my forte

The Performance should be good enough.

I have an excellent teacher and an excellent accompanist so everything should be fine. My accompanist was my school music teacher from the age of 11 and we both listen extremely carefully to every note we produce together.

As you are a mere 38/39 I guess this is evidence for the "only suitable for brilliant Young people side of the argument"

Cheers
Mad "old codger" Tom

<-- but Happy

That depends whether I'm acting my age, my shoe size (3) or my glove size (6.5).

I may be under 40, but I'm not exactly twenty something anymore Tom.

I am 47 this year and am going to college this year to do a music degree- so hope I don't find I am too old! Am living in too so am hoping be amongst all those 18 yr olds will make me feel young again!!