Hello again.
May I ask how many of you have encountered the government funding policy of "Equal or lesser qualification"?
As far as I understand ELQ , recently introduced ,means that if you have already got,say a Masters in Music then if you apply for and are accepted into the RCM or similar to do a Masters in performance you will now be charged the fees for an international student (circa £15 000). My D. finds herself in this quandry.
well, nearly, haha! she has yet to apply or be offered a place!

She has a 2:1 from Bristol (with a 1st in the performance element)
She wants to stay and do her Masters in Sept.She didnt apply to RCM or anywhere else last year because she thought her voice was not ready and it has indeed matured a lot in the last year.
Any way, she dosent want to take a year out "and see what happens" because it is entirely possible that she wont get offered a place and then she wouldnt have the Basic bristol Masters either.
Am I making any sense at all?

I just wondered if anyone had experienced this policy, what effect it had on them and what as general rule of thumb, opinions are about it?
Seems to me that if she gets in we are going to be hit with a very big stick!
I believe that the intention is to prevent the "perpetual student" syndrome.Understandable in some respects.
Of course it's not just music students who will be affected, but they may be more likely to get caught in the trap will they are developing to the required standard whilst studying something else.
J.

Ah well, never mind...

Hang on, your question has only been up for three hours! Lots of us are at work, and probably most of them don't spend half their day logged on to the forums like some of us You'll probably also find that not many people are in the position that you are in to offer much advice...

A few thoughts spring to mind (as a person who is an ELQ but at bachelors level):

1) On most masters courses, the government subsidy is minimal to none. The subsidy is generally found on courses that are a Good Thing, like teaching or medicine. So you might find that there is no difference between what an ELQ and a non-ELQ person pays, because even a non-ELQ person is already paying full fees.

2) Most universities don't know yet what the difference in funding will mean for them. For the average university, 2% of their students are ELQ. I study through the Open University where that number is much higher - the OU are due to lose around about £30 million of the government funding. However, even the OU don't know what difference this is going to make to them! Course fees for 2009 are up on 2008, but only by about the same as the 2007 to 2008 difference.

3) ELQ students won't pay the exact same rate as an international (European international) student - but some universities are giving that as a guideline. See above - most places don't know yet what the impact will be. It may be that the university in question spreads out the cost over everybody, i.e. the 98% of non-ELQs subsidise the 2% of ELQs. The funding change is from the government to the university; how the university pass that change on will be up to the university.

4) Also, if the original masters was part of a first degree (i.e. it was a 4 year course that led to a masters, not a 3 year bachelors and then a separate 1 year masters), you may find they view it differently...

5) Easy solution: see if the university concerned have any ideas yet...!

Thanks Maisie.
How observant of you to notice I have too much time on my hands!
I had a good look at the R.A.M. site and found the following:

ELQ

Withdrawal of funding for equivalent or lower qualifications (ELQs).
In September 2007 the Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills instructed the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) to phase out funding for ELQ students starting from 2008-09 - in other words, financial support in the form of a grant from HEFCE will be removed. This support in the past enabled the Academy (and other higher-education institutions) to charge the lower UK/EC rate for tuition fees for eligible students. Because this support will be removed, if your studies at the Academy are for a qualification that is equivalent to, or lower than, a qualification that you will have achieved by September 2008, the normal full fee (international level) will apply for your study programme.

They go on to say that fees for an MA are £7600 rising to £16200 for International or ELQ students
likewise MMus goes up from £8500 to £16200.

I just have a feeling that a lot of people aren't yet aware of this problem

There has been a petition on the e-petiiton website for some time, voicing the concerns of mature students /educators and urging the government not to take this course of action. I signed it.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ELQFunding/

You can read Gordon Brown's response there. Unhelpful.
Very few people have much in the way of job security these days, and some years ago it was recognised that every adult in the country would probably have 3 or 4 different careers throughout their working lifetime, for each of which they would have to re-train. Seems that idea now costs too much............

I've just graduated from a second degree and while talking to a tutor about continuing onto a Masters, he revealed that numbers have already dropped significantly. Even would-be first time Masters students do not want to take on the extra debt. The new ELQ ruling will mean even less students taking up the opportunity.
Never mind widening access. Soon it'll only be about those who can afford it..... again.

(Now biting my tongue and refusing to get into a political rant).

ELQ has been much discussed; it is a particular issue for the Open University, for whom I have been teaching and as Iona says there has been an active e-petition.

I think Maizie's first point is mistaken: a few years back, I understood that postgraduate study was about 66% subsidised by central per capita grants. Judging from what MommaJo has found, it now looks to be about 50% subsidised.

nick

Fair enough - I only know what I'd picked up from an OUSA forum, which is probably unreliable; it had been mentioned there that there is more masters funding out there than you think, but it's still not very much (this was from an OUSA VP as well - teach me to believe what I read online!)


I'm unlikely to do a masters but am unsure whether or not I technically count as having a masters already. I do have an MA, but it's an Oxbridge MA so I don't know if it counts or not from an ELQ perspective. Probably would count, if it meant the government could spend less money on me

I do love the government's comment that ELQ-type funding should come more from employers. Yes, indeed, any employer is going to help pay for an employee to train for what's likely to be a career change (why else would you need a second degree? apart from being a study addict like me...)

Alternative solution: study in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland - then ELQ won't apply!

It also won't apply if you live in NI but study at an English institution (i.e. OU students who live in NI won't pay ELQ fees)

well that would be great since we DO live in N.I.

However I dont think you can study opera or leider or whatever at RAM. or RCM or Guildhall through the O.U
Or can you? So perhaps music students majoring in performance are at a bit of a disadvantage.
I shall certainly look into the Scottish option Maizie so thanks for the pointer!
J.

Many people study for a masters in performance abroad where fees are often cheaper and living costs lower too. If you look around you may find somewhere appropriate in this category. Not sure on the specifics but I know for example that all Tel Aviv conservatoire musicians who get a place in the orchestra get full fees paid, even though the fees are lower than regular UK undergrad (£3000) as it is. Probably a similar level applies for all courses.

No, obviously that loophole only applies for distance education! Most non-distance learning has residency requirements, e.g. live within X miles of the city, so if you have to move away from NI to study in England...you now live in England so the loophole once again closes. It is an utterly bizarre loophole, but who am I to question the government

The rotters!

Can you recommend any foreign conservatoires that are good for singers, Maizie?
J.

This is the kind of thing you need to be consulting your teacher on, as someone who knows your abilities and which professors you would be well suited to. There are thousands of places but many will be unsuitable because the level is too high/low, the language would cause problems or there are no good enough professors in that voice type.

To be honest, most undergraduates, when they start university, don't even realise they will have to pay up front for their (postgraduate) masters, and won't get a student loan, should they choose to do one. I had one friend that swapped off her (undergraduate) masters programme to the bachelors degree, having decided she wanted to do a more specialist masters at that university upon graduating, and not one lecturer advising her on this decision warned that she'd have to pay for the more specialist masters, and wouldn't receive a student loan. Now she doesn't even know if she'll carry on at all.