Flossie, if you order your shoulder rest from Stringmail, you'll get it in a day or two, which is great. Alternatively, if you can make it to a real violin maker's shop, you can try different ones to see which one suits you - perhaps trying different combinations of shoulder and chin rest.

Thanks Rosfrog. I ordered the shoulder rest from them yesterday. I was explicitly told to get a kun rest and have gone for the version which is adjustable in terms of both height and width, so there should be plenty of options for positioning it.

There aren't any music shops in my local area, and I'm not happy to give my business to the one in the nearest city. I have had serious problems with the shop in the past (had to take my flute somewhere else to get the damage they did to it repaired ), as have a number of other people I know. It's the shop which sold Echelon an unplayable violin and then tried to refuse to refund it, so I don't think that they're any better for strings than woodwind. The luthier in my area didn't have shoulder rests, and I didn't particularly want to have to travel all the way to York/Leeds or Hexham just for a shoulder rest. I talked to stringmail on the phone before I ordered and can return the stringmail shoulder rest if it isn't suitable, and even if I did this 3 or 4 times the postage would still be less than the travel costs to somewhere like York.

Well my shoulder rest arrived today (despite only being ordered at 16:50 yesterday!) and Chloe is now feeling much more comfy.

I've had a nice play on her, and she is starting to sound better now.

I am quite pleased with myself because I have extended one of my scales. I had been doing G major 2 octaves and D and A major one octave, but tonight I had a go at a 2 octave D major. I've no idea what position I shifted into (I put my 1st finger where my 4th would normally go ), but the notes were right on the way up - the only hiccup was when I tried to shift back to 1st position on the way down and went too far.

Flossie, I think you are talking about the A string, that you put your first finger where your fourth would normally be.
If this is the case you are playing the E with your first finger once you have shifted and you have gone up to 4th position this way. It is an unusual thing to do for a beginner and for a D major 2 octave scale.

The way you should do it is: once on A string, play your first and second finger (B and C sharp) then shift your first finger where your third finger would be in first position (hence you shift to 3rd position), then play the D with your first finger in third position, leave a gap and play E with your second finger, gap and play F sharp with your third finger, no gap and play G with fourth finger. STAY in third position and go over to the E string and with your first finger you play A, leave a gap, play B with second finger, leave a gap and play C sharp with 3rd finger then NO gap and you play D with fourth finger.

Hope I have not confused you

To get used to third position, from 1st position, play your first finger (B) on the A string, then put down your third finger and play the D, play B and D back and forth, no shifting, just to hear the sound then once you are confident you really remember what B and D sound like play B (first finger) in first position and then slide your first finger where your third would normally be to play D (third position) and from remembering the sound of the D you should get the right spot, shift back to first position afterwards. Do this a million times or as often as you can, you will soon master shifting to third with your eyes closed!

You can then do this with the other strings once you are confident with your A string.

oooooohhhhh, have fun, I LOVE shifting!

I was talking about the E string, but shifting on the A string is an option. I've just tried it your way and it does work, but it's much harder on my little finger.

I hadn't actually intended to do the scale for two octaves the first time - I just forgot to stop and then decided I might as well try to keep going.

That's because Jo-jo's way is the correct way to be playing 2 octaves of D major (on ABRSM grade 3 scale requirements). The shift from 1st to 3rd position is usually the 1st shift learned & is much more useful (IMO) than trying to shift into 4th position on the E string to get high enough on the scale for 2 octaves.

I thought her way was probably correct.

As I said, I hadn't actually set out to do the 2 octaves - I just forgot to stop and then shifted when I ran out of fingers.

It's interesting that 3rd position is the first shift that gets taught on violin, because I was taught 4th position first on cello.

So was I - something to do with 4th position being very useful to know on a cello, but 3rd position being way more useful for a violin?

4th position is really easy to find on the cello since you just stop the upward shift when your thumb reaches the body of the cello (although of course coming back down is not quite so easy ). Also, it seems to be the only position which is straightforward. My daughter uses Position Pieces for the cello which has "upper third position" "lower third position" and "extended third position" (which as an ex-violinist I found very confusing).

Just to be a bit of pedant, but I think it's more appropriate to talk of 'recommended' ways to play scales for an ABRSM grade, rather than 'correct' ways.

The correct way to play any scale depends on the context and individual physiology of the musician, the ABRSM offer suggested fingerings for the playing of scales (and any reasonably advanced player will probably tell you that they almost never play the scales in the context of pieces using those fingerings).

That's ok, it's good to 'explore' it's fun and helps with your 'development'


what's right is right and you are right rosfrog

How good d'you need to be before it's worth getting better strings?

As soon as term ends, I need to get my fiddle to a luthier to get a crack looked at and the bow re-haired. Just wondering which other things would be worth doing at the same time. He'll probably have to take the strings off to deal with the crack, so it might be a good time to upgrade them. Also thinking about getting a tailpiece with 4 adjusters, as tuning without them is proving...interesting.

On the one hand, it makes sense to get as much done in one go as I can but, on the other, I don't want to spend more than I need to, especially as I've got to get my flute serviced as well.

As I'm only a beginner still (and likely to remain so for quite some time), would better strings be a pointless extravagance at this stage? If I have to choose between new strings and a tailpiece, which is better to get?

Hi,
If I were you I'd get some new strings, (although I don't know what you are using at the moment), as they may make quite a difference to your sound. I wouldn't bother with the tailpiece unless yours is actually broken. I know it can take a long time to get comfortable with tuning the lower three strings from the pegs but it's a useful skill in the long run.
N

I was amazed the difference when I upgraded my cheap beginners violin to the new one I have now, the strings on the first were just astrea steel ones and now I have some Corelli crystals, they sound so much better and I actually find them easier to play, they are thicker which seems to help!

Corelli crystals are a really nice sound or dominants the second of which I am planning on buying when I have used up the ones I have. I have the astrea steel strings mainly because I'm still learning to tune my violin and they stay in tune longer, also I didn't have £30 to get a set and another £30 for a spair. I don't particulary like them though because they leave steel imprints on my index finger. But they are alright for what I need them for at the moment. I would imagine by the time I start thinking about new strings I will be around grade 2.

As for what I'm working on right now. We'll I've only been playing for 3 weeks (end of may) and I've had 2 lessons. We are working on exam pieces (toodle pip, wonderous love and country chimes as well as fanfare) and will be doing some ensamble pieces next week. My teacher said that she thinks I can take grade 1 in december. So this is what I am aiming for. I am hoping to be more grade 2 standard by that time as it will help with playing the pieces. I work on the abracadabra books in my own time to help me with practicing sight reading and gaining a little repitoir. I also do G, D and A scales.

My teacher and I decided this morning that new strings for my viola might be a 'good thing' especially the C string which growls rather than playing an actual note (although that has improved with a new bow). Dominants for the viola are looking rather expensive but I have found some at £51.41. My teacher said that somewhere called something like 'Caswell' have had them on special offer but i couldn't find them when i googled it so i must be spelling it wrong - anybody recognise what it might be?

Could it be here?

Click

Yes that's it - many thanks!

How's everyone getting on?

I can't wait for the weather to go back to normal it's too hot to practise!

I'm off for first lesson with violin teacher #2 later this afternoon

your FIRST lesson on violin!!! how exciting!!! we expect a full report later this evening of course

ps: I sweat buckets when practicing double bass these days because of hot weather, also on violin but not as much as on double bass

Thanks but that was meant to be first lesson with second teacher after the first one moved away! Whoops!
At least with violin you can sit down! I'm guessing that doesn't work with the double bass

Nobody's posted one here for ages.

How is everyone getting on?

I hope I'm not the only one left that fits this thread...

I don't 'officially belong' to this thread as I am approx grade 5 standard BUT I'll give you an update anyway.
I seem to have hit a VERY BIG wall with my progress and it feels I will not improve EVER!
yep, am OFFICIALLY STUCK!

but I have a very good violin teacher now and I've only recently started with him so I keep practicing, doing whatever exercises he 'prescribes' (and he does a lot of prescribing ) and even though I feel total rubbish and almost feeling like 'ditching' this violin learning thing, I'll KEEP GOING as there is a tiny bit inside of me which still believes I may (only just) get better 'one day'!!!

and you flossie? how you doing?

I'm sure that if you persevere long enough you'll eventually get over the wall.

I've had Chloe's bridge changed over the summer, her sound post adjusted and her nut shaved, and the E string now sounds better than it did. I also have a new bow. It's a cheapish (just over £100) carbon fibre bow but for me it out played the permabuco bows I tried (all of which were in the £150-£250 price range).

My teacher has noticed that for some reason I hold my breath when I shift, so I'm currently trying to work out how not to do that. The problem is that I hadn't noticed I was doing it and now that I'm more self-conscious of what I do when I shift I seem to want to hold my breath even more and get tense which then makes it all worse.

Have started working on some pieces out of one of the old grade 3 books and am really enjoying the change from the unintentional baroque diet I'd been on while I was using the suzuki book 3.

I'll get on the other side of the wall 'one day'

how funny 'holding the breath' as you shift, you probably feel as you are going 'scuba-diving' as you shift and when you find your new position you can feel free to breathe again as your head is 'above water' again

to get good at shifting I find the 'one string scale' exercise my teacher prescribed a 'good one' (there are many others)
ie: on G string you play G major scale, you start in first position with first and second finger, once you used second finger you go up to third with first finger, then down goes second finger then shift again with first finger up to fifth until you complete your one octave scale. Always cheking where you are against open strings, then you shift all the way down back to first position, then you do it again with second and third fingers then again with third and fourth finger. Ask your teacher to show you, it's a good one (if he/she thinks you're ready for it, and why not, it's not difficult and it will teach you to listen to yourself and find those shifts a lot easier).

I have learnt all the pieces in new grade 3 books (I think they are the new ones, they are orange?), they are great!, loved the transition to grade 3, it suddenly 'stopped being boring'

I thought of you jojo when I was at a lunchtime concert on Friday, the first piece was:
Romberg Sonata in E minor for Double Bass and Piano!

I thought two things:
1) As it wasn't a concert orchestra we were sat quite near the bass, and it is in fact really huge! Much larger than I imagined!
2) The double bass is cool!

thanks Jacobi, how nice of you to remember me and Gandalf
it is HUGE (the bass) and I am still not used to playing it! it is physically VERY HARD when you start, it is like going to the gym when you've never done any exercise in your life
but it is 'cool' that's why I 'forgive him' for giving me sore fingers and a sore left arm (from having to 'keep it up' all the time) and I eventually go back for more

My lesson has really tired me out and I don't know why.

I ache as well, and I don't normally get any aches from playing Chloe. I'm sure I wasn't doing anything different to normal, and I'm sure my teacher would have noticed if I was doing something strange.

I think I can count myself as being a beginner, seeing as I've only picked up the Violin in the last couple of months, and put myself forward for Grade I in Session C this year

I'm managing fine with the Grade I pieces, so have moved on a bit and picked out what I want to present for Grade II, and working through the pieces, which are coming together, but still very scrappy.

My teacher has given me advice that I need to work on making my tone more even and clear on the E-string, work on getting my wrist a bit more flexible for bowing, and given some tips for managing the third-finger A to fourth-finger Bb where I was going a bit sharp (I wasn't lifting the third finger to give my fourth enough room to land properly )

Well I think I definitely fit this thread. By pre-grade 3, can I be included although I have never had a lesson? Lol. Starting this week - going to go through the basics with my piano teacher, he is going to split my lessons half and half between piano and violin. Very excited!

sounds good. Have you got a violin yet?

Yes my sisters from when she was younger. Its been sitting in its case for about 10 years lol. Have got new strings on it though!

It might be worth taking it to a luthier to get it checked over.

Is it full size?

Yes full size a colleague I worked with who is a real pro looked it over and she said it was fine as a starter instrument. She was the one who re-strung it and gave me the tuning fork to make sure it stays in tune

Enjoy.

I'm going to go home now - am still at work, but not much work is being done.

Let us know how you get on.

I'm now allowed to add vibrato to pieces but seem to have prompty lost the knack of doing vibrato.

Just seen you are NE england like me. Where are you working at this time lol!!!!!

I'm not a new beginner, but I do feel like one, so I'll post in here. How is everyone getting on? It's good to hear how others are doing. I've switched from having random irregular lessons to one lesson per week or fortnight and I can see some slight progress. I should practise more! I only manage to play once or twice a week

I had a TERRIBLE time over the summer and back in July/August did not pick up the violin for 6 whole weeks! Took me a WHOLE TWO MONTHS to get back to my 5 days a week practice routine (and 1hour lesson on the 6th day so only one day a week where I don't touch the violin, but that is because I work a 13hour shift!).
BUT, 2 days a week is much better than none, so stick with it Moon, one day you'll be able to stick another day on top of that and so on, and when you do, you'll be glad you kept those 2 days a week up as they helped you to slowly improve on your skills. AND, two days of 'proper practice' is far better than 4 of 'foolish practice'

Thanks for the encouragement You are so dedicated to the violin, you set a good example! You must be making good progress I'm glad you've got back into it and found a great teacher. Self motivation is important but having a good teacher really helps. Hehe, I do a lot of "foolish practice" but any type of playing helps you improve and we need to have fun. But my new teacher is quite strict (in a good way), so I have to be good and make sure I do my homework! It's good that he leads the lesson cos before I changed teachers, I was leading the lesson and telling my teacher what I wanted to learn. (I hadn't a clue what I was suppose to learn).

Do you play in an orchestra? I find that helps a lot with rhythm and playing with others. I've been too busy to join an orchestra this year. I might try joining one next year.

I am making progress, I wouldn't call it 'good' though, but am getting better
I am really happy you have this new teacher, he sounds like the right one and you talk about him so positively, he's the right 'match for you' by the sounds of it. I also 'love' my new teacher, I really look up to him. It's good when you get that 'feeling' that you are with the right 'leader'
I know what you mean about you leading the lessons all the time, I think a little of that now and again is good but 'he' (or she) who 'knows best' (teacher) should be having the 'main' lead!

I am in an orchestra, I can't make much sense of it to be honest. Although it's an amateur orchestra, they are all very experienced players, some teachers, most of them having played for over 20 years at minimum so I am 'overwhelmed' and I only play about 15% of the times, the other 85% I just sit there like a lemon but they are SO patient with me and let me keep trying, they don't mind me

Ok, I am 'supposed' to take my grade 5 exam in March.

When someone says this you would 'expect them' to be at that level and or slightly over.

You would also expect they could, if they wanted, play a few pieces on the violin to 'entertain' friends and family if they wanted to?

or do I have a 'misconception' of what a 'grade 5 violinist' is supposed to be like?

whenever I watch videos on youtube of people playing grade 5 stuff, they all play WAY MUCH BETTER than I do, are they 'really' at a better standard and could pass a grade 7 or 8 exam if they wanted to, or am I just 'disillusioned'??

am I 'fooling' myself thinking I am at or near grade 5? am I 'fooling myself' thinking I ought by now know how to play some pieces at an 'ok' standard and could entertain a bunch of friends if I wanted to?

I think I could NOT entertain anyone, I CANNOT PLAY ONE PIECE without some mistakes in it, nor I can play one piece and say I can play it at a reasonable standard.

After nearly 3 years of playing violin I cannot do that.

Now:
am I just too critical of my playing? and expecting too much? or am I just NOT good enough, or is it just 'reality' that at grade 5 you are NOT supposed to be able to entertain anyone??

am I making any sense here at all?

I have a latest piece of me practicing a grade 5 piece on youtube if anyone of you was thinking 'if only we can see you/hear playing we can comment a bit more'
the piece is Giga by Mascitti.

I don't have at present a link to it as I am at work and youtube is 'banned' at work, but if you search for Giga violin grade 5 maybe I will come up in the search results? or you can search for my profile which is joparkeruk

in this piece I am not satisfied at all, when I play it at speed my bow 'wanders' too much and goes too close to the fingerboard, my intonation at times is not that great and my rythm slows down in a couple of spots (showing my insecurity in the bars that are about to come up). I also make a couple of little mistakes with the notes I play.

Anyway, I would not be happy with it the way it is now, and I would not dare to say that anyone would find it 'entertaining' or good enough.

what's going on?
am I fooling myself here that I ought to be able to do more by now? or is it just supposed to be like this?

sorry and thank you for your patience

Aw Jo.



I thought it sounded good, and wish my violin sounded like that.

I recorded myself on my phone at the weekend and was quite shocked at how bad I sounded (vibrato, intonation, shifting and harmonics need some serious work ). If you tell me how to do it, I'll post them on here - it might make you feel better!

'bless' you and your attempt to make me feel better

so all these people on youtube, are they really grade 8 voilinists 'fobbing themselves off' as grade 5 ones? is that why they all sound so amazingly better than me?

are we 'normal' grade 5 people then supposed not to be very good?

do we need to pass grade 8 to be able to play a few tunes at a good standard and say we 'can play violin reasonably well'???

as for uploading your video:
if you have a camera attached to your computer, it's very straighforward from youtube (with a youtube account), you just click on the yellow 'upload' button (usually top right corner) and it is quite simple, it tells you step by step what to do, try it
Maybe if I can see/hear a 'normal' person like you and me it will make me feel better that we are not supposed to be 'some prodigy' like the others on youtube

It's just on my phone. I've never used youtube except to listen to things? I'm not sure I'd want the whole world to be able to listen.

I can understand

I think most of us feel the same really - I know I am always shocked at how bad I sound if I record myself (that's why I don't do it very often!). It's such a long learning curve with the violin that even with the most efficient practice and motivation, you just have to put in the time.

It always amazes me how much time, effort and obvious improvement it takes to get from 'not very good' to 'a bit better but still not very good' (I'm talking about my own playing!) and it's discouraging at times.
I'm just about to take an exam (this week unfortunately) and while I know I couldn't have managed those pieces earlier in the year when I did the last one, it still sounds horribly unconvincing despite the improvements I must have made.

Anyway, I think you sounded fine, especially considering that recording affects the sound quality so much. You are very brave to be on youtube!
N

thanks Nova
well, I think people doing live performances are more brave, at least on youtube I don't see the bad faces they pull when they hear me playing nor see them covering their ears and if they post any nasty comments I can delete them or not authorise them (but have not received anything bad so far, people are kinder than you think if you are honest and not 'big headed'
My teacher always says it is very helpful to record yourself, I think to do it on video is even better than just recording the sound as you can also 'see' what's going on (ie my bow floating around and that's what makes the sound less good in some places).
In this piece I am playing there is a lot of passages that you play one note on one string and the next on the neighbouring string and the next on the original one and so on...you have to do this at speed and make them sound very clear which is 'tricky', I have noticed that when I do this on the A and E string it's quite 'easy', gets little more difficult on D and A and even more on G and D (for obvious reasons).
But, when I play the ones on G and D string, if I play looking at my fingers and bow action I can play them really well, if I look up or at the music then I sound a lot more horrible, even though I know what I am supposed to do in order to sound 'clean', I can't do it unless I am looking at it

Hi Jojo,

reading your post I couldn't help but think 'that sounds just like me!' I did grade 5 viola (TG) in the summer and scraped a merit, but I still don't have 'party pieces' that can be played on demand or lots of the other things that you, like me, think that a grade 5 player should have. I have only just started vibrato this past week - my intonation was too wonky before (I know lots of people talk about starting this at around grade 3 - yikes!) But I am starting to trust my tutor when she says I am making progress. One of the ways I have seen that lately is in the speed I can learn pieces. While grade 6 pieces still take quite a while, a grade 5 piece I started two weeks ago I can now play through with only a few wobbly bars! A year ago that would have taken me months to get to a similar standard.

I think I can forget how nice simple pieces can sound to other people. Sometimes I walk in on the lesson before mine (normally different people as my tutor's timetable varies from week to week), and when my tutor asks me to guess what grade the piece I heard was I invariably guess too high. Too me, a grade 2 piano piece, or grade 3 violin piece can sound so beautiful. I think if you went back to some pieces you played a year or so ago, you would be able to see how much better you can play them. Learning stuff at the edges of my competence, like new grade 6 pieces for me, will always sound less than perfect - that's why I have to practice. But coming back to pieces from a year ago, I can see and hear the difference, even if it still isn't perfect.

It will be good for you to have evidence of your progress from your recordings to demonstrate your progress in the future. Your committment to two instruments (excellent instrument selecting with the bass btw!) and your speed of progress is amazing. Being able to critically analyse your performace, is a sign of progress (even if it is a frustrating one as you learn more and your ear develops).

Keep playing and posting - I loved your Dog's Life (incidently - wrong thread I know but still!) I've enjoyed hearing about your progress over the years. (As a chronic lurker on viva strings I see a lot, even if I don't post often! )


Lís

Thank you Lis
so it seems I am 'right' in a way, we are no great (or half decent violinists) at grade 5! not most of us 'mortals'
and maybe yes, I don't have one piece I can play well as as soon as I learn playing one I move onto something more difficult which takes ages to learn. I guess if I picked up grade 3 pieces I could learn to play one or two fairly easily....(I think so anyway) trouble is I spend time trying to learn new stuff all the time.
tonight at the end of my practice I 'mucked about' a bit, just playing 'foolishly' for 10 minutes over some grade 3 pieces, it was fun and half of them sounded 'ok'

Amazing you seem to 'remember' my progress, I thought nobody paid much attention
but I see in your signature you 'used' to play the bass? is that so?

thanks again for your kindness

Hello jojo,
I was just reading through your posts regarding this grade 5 thing. If I could I would slap you with a wet fish and yell snap out of it woman. Ok maybe not as you would prob hit me back and that might hurt.

Do you remember how you must have thought how cool it would be to be at grade 5 when you started out. Well you are there now and to us no good sucky cat screetchers no mark beginers you are a god. We want to be you.

As far as I am concerned I would not care if a 5 year old could play the pants off me. I am in this for the fun and enjoyment of learning and playing my instrument.

As for checking out the grade fivers on youtube. There will always be those who claim to be grades below what they are just to make themselves look good. When I was a bit younger I used to do kung fu. I would enter tourniments fighting and it was obvious that some people of much higher grades would enter the lower gardes catagory just so they could win a trophy. My instructer was more the opposet and used to tell myself and another guy to enter the higher grade fights. We used to get our butts kicked by black belts when we were only two grades up from beginers. That was fine we didn't mind we were getting beat by better martial artists. At the same time we learnt alot.

I imagine as you get further on in the grades of any instrument the improvements you make in your own playing ability is much less noticeable then when you are a beginer. Us beginers jump for joy when we can play happy birthday without hitting a ###### note.

Keep at it jojo don't worry about what anyone else can do. I imagine you love making music so keep doing so and in time all those tiny improvements you don't really notice will suddenly show themselves.