hi, dose D major down a major 2nd is a C major or c# major??

plz reply asap thanks in advance

C major.

C sharp major would be a semitone down - a major second is a whole tone, ie two semitones. The interval between C and D is a whole tone.

Hi

Cheats way of learning intervals

Always start on the lower note. Work out where the higher note would come in the major scale of the lower note.(regardless of the key you are in) then make adjustments for any sharps and flats.

So in C major, D is the second note of the scale, therefore is a major 2nd
C# major, D# is the second note of the scale, so D would be a minor 2nd.

another example

If higher note is F# (you are in the key of G major) lower note is C
C - F in the key of C major is a perfect 4th
But because you are in G major it is an F# therefore will be an augmented 4th.

Does this make sense - its much easier explaining it when people are sat next to you.

Hi Digby. Here's a puzzler. Why is a "minor second" called a "minor second", since the interval in either the major or minor key is a whole tone to the first note? A "minor second" doesn't actually occur between the first two notes of a minor scale. It doesn't seem to make logical sense, but it does work in another sense because you kind of instinctively know what it means. I suppose if you called it a Phrygian second you might just be told to calm down and have a little rest.

Because a semitone smaller than major is minor?

QUOTE (zoda @ Oct 16 2004, 11:15 AM)

Hi Digby.   Here's a puzzler.  Why is a "minor second" called a "minor second",  since the interval in either the major or minor key is a whole tone to the first note?    A "minor second" doesn't actually occur between the first two notes of a minor scale.  It doesn't seem to make logical sense,  but it does work in another sense because you kind of instinctively know what it means.   I suppose if you called it a Phrygian second you might just be told to calm down and have a little rest.

The minor second occurs between the third and fourth notes of the major scale, and again between the 7th and 8th.

QUOTE (zoda @ Oct 16 2004, 11:15 AM)

Here's a puzzler. Why is a "minor second" called a "minor second", since the interval in either the major or minor key is a whole tone to the first note?

That is odd actually maybe it should have been called a perfect second since it's the same in both (like fifths, fourths and octaves); but for some reason it isn't. There's probably a technical reason why but I don't know it.

Can't remember all the details of this but here goes anyway....

The 'Perfect' intervals are what happens when you take a length of tubing or a string and divide it at a regular interval.. I think it is something like half, third and quarter.
Everything else is, in equal tempered instrument and I suppose to our 'modern' ears, 'tweaked' to fit neatly in between.

Anyone else know the science a bit better?

A minor second is just another name for a semitone, in the same way that a major second is another name for a whole tone.

oh good.... good explanation

QUOTE (Cyrilla @ Oct 16 2004, 06:38 PM)

A minor second is just another name for a semitone, in the same way that a major second is another name for a whole tone.

All minor seconds are semitones, but not all semitones are minor seconds. For instance, C to C# is a semitone, but not a minor second; it is an augmented unison.

QUOTE (zoda @ Oct 16 2004, 11:15 AM)

I suppose if you called it a Phrygian second you might just be told to calm down and have a little rest.

....and if you called it a Locrian second I guess you'd be carted off to the funny farm....

Sorry I think the question posed to me has been well and truly answered, but I'm sat here having a good chuckle

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QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Oct 17 2004, 08:57 AM)

Sbhoa, ok, that's fine up to the 5th harmonic which is a major 3rd above the 4th, i.e. when you divide the pipe into 5 (or a 17th above the fundamental).     The 8th and 9th harmonics are separated by 1 'tone'.   The 15 & 16th by a 'semitone'    (Quotes because as you say, this isn't equal temperament.  Horn players manage to utilise it tho)

The other tone in the harmonic series is the one from the 9th to the 10th harmonic. If you are into 18th C theory, you will call 8:9 a major tone and 9:10 a minor tone. There is an "original instrument" (the wind instruments probably mostly replicas) recording of Weber's "Oberon" (the London Classical Players under Sir Roger Norrington, IIRC) in which you can hear the horn player producing both these intervals, which are perceptibly different, when he plays his opening solo on the natural horn in D.

Similarly, some people distinguish two sorts of semitone: the minor second is the diatonic semitone, which appears in the diatonic scale, and the augmented unison is the chromatic semitone, which does not. In typical upper string fingering (exceptions can be useful), the first is played by putting down two adjacent fingers, the second by shifting one.

I don't put any of these intervals in quotes. They are older and more authentic than the funny ones you get on a piano. Equal temperament works there, because of the nature of modern piano timbre, but not very well on instruments with forced vibrations, like blown wind and bowed strings.

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OK Babybanana - does all this make sense, or are you confused yet

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Oops, sorry, brain a bit mangled that day - should have said I meant as found in a basic major/minor scale...

Oh - and I know it's a tricky one, Rhapsodin, but perhaps when you've had a stronger cuppa you could check how I spell my name????

<runs away screaming>

QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Oct 17 2004, 11:16 AM)

I think you'll find equal temperament was around before the modern piano.  Bach was a great supporter because in spite of small descrepancies from true pitches (they are very small in most cases) it was as easy to play in any key.  Hence his 48.   Supposedly the first set of 12 hit the charts so successfully he decided to write a second set.   I believe they were for the harpsichord or similar plucked instruments of the time.

Yes, equal temperament with 12 notes to the octave (ET) seems to have been suggested as a practical tuning for lutes some time during the second half of the 16th century and around 1580 Molinaro wrote a lute fantasia that gets flatter and flatter until it has cycled around all the keys (modern interpretation: the concept of key had not been invented then). However, it is by no means certain that the temperament that Bach used or suggested for the 48 was ET. There were many different tunings proposed during his lifetime to allow a keyboard to play in all keys, with various distributions of the "wolf" over the intervals, and experts still argue whether ET was being used that early on keyboards. The uneven "well-temperaments" gave the keys different characters that could be perceived even by listeners who lacked perfect pitch. In this country, ET for organs was still a contentious issue c.1870, with people writing to the Musical Times to complain about another London organ being converted to that "barbaric" temperament. I know of less evidence for piano tunings in this country, but I have heard that ET became common only around 1840. The acoustics of consonance are such that ET is much less offensive on the piano than on pretty well any other common keyboard instrument, because the piano has a fairly bland tone compared to the harpsichord and (especially) the clavichord. On the organ, the timbres of the different stops vary.

If you have access to an ET tuned clavichord, try this experiment: play a major triad and listen to the sound carefully, then try again but press down on the tonic and dominant keys to increase the tension in the strings while relaxing on the mediant key. There will be a stage at which the blend of the chord sounds smoother and more concordant than the result of even pressure.

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QUOTE (sbhoa @ Oct 16 2004, 05:41 PM)

Can't remember all the details of this but here goes anyway.... The 'Perfect' intervals are what happens when you take a length of tubing or a string and divide it at a regular interval.. I think it is something like half, third and quarter. Everything else is, in equal tempered instrument and I suppose to our 'modern' ears, 'tweaked' to fit neatly in between. Anyone else know the science a bit better?

Thanks for the partial explanation it lead me to search and I think maybe I've discovered the reason that it isn't perfect. This information is a paraphrase of a copy of Wikepedia by the way (which explains this better than I do!).

Intervals come in pairs with inverses (except octaves and unisons which are their own inverses):

The perfect fourth is the inverse of the perfect fifth: the ratio between the frequency of notes in a perfect fifth is 3:2, the inverse of this ratio is that of the perfect fourth 4:3.

Then the major third and minor sixth are inverses with 5:4 as a major third and 8:5 as a minor sixth.

Now here comes the bit about seconds...

There are two types of seventh: major and minor and these exist in the pure major and minor scales. These must both have inverses so therefore we must need major seconds and minor seconds to be different and not perfect to invert these intervals (the reason for them being different is only what I speculate based on the article).

A minor second inverts a major seventh which has ratio 16:9 and thus must itself have a ratio of 9:8; and a major second must invert an minor seventh which has ratio of 15:8 and thus must itself have a ratio of 16:15.

It's a bit mathematical but I think that explains it, as I said the Wikipedia article explains it better than I do although it doesn't make the link to why major and minor seconds must be different, as I said that's my speculation so feel free to argue with that point!

god i understood all that i mean yay go me.. NOT!!!

that was like really confusing.. lol i got some of the post but thanks for helping me!! i think its made it easier for me to see intervals somehow....