Hi.
I'm currently learning Handel's Gigue (Piano - G6)
Is some subtle pedalling acceptable in music of this style?
For those familiar with the piece i would suggest that Bar 12 in particular is very hard to play smoothly without it.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Milo
Full Version: Sustain Pedal In Baroque Music
Milo_N
Here are my thoughts! Yes I think subtle pedalling in this context is acceptable, but the emphasis is on the subtle. Baroque music demands clarity above all else, and too much use of the pedal could sacrifice this. But where a section proves particularly difficult to execute smoothly as here, then a touch of pedal should not cause any real harm. Rememeber, use of the pedal should be the exception in music of this period, and the idea of legato playing as the ideal or norm did not really appear until the Nineteenth century, so occasional gaps between the notes are not as undesirable as you may think. Indeed, my teacher
recommends absolutely no pedal at all in the Grade 8 Handel 'Gigue' I am learning at the moment, for this very reason.
denmark
Here are my thoughts! Yes I think subtle pedalling in this context is acceptable, but the emphasis is on the subtle. Baroque music demands clarity above all else, and too much use of the pedal could sacrifice this. But where a section proves particularly difficult to execute smoothly as here, then a touch of pedal should not cause any real harm. Rememeber, use of the pedal should be the exception in music of this period, and the idea of legato playing as the ideal or norm did not really appear until the Nineteenth century, so occasional gaps between the notes are not as undesirable as you may think. Indeed, my teacher
recommends absolutely no pedal at all in the Grade 8 Handel 'Gigue' I am learning at the moment, for this very reason.
denmark
Hi Denmark.
Thank you for your advice.
Milo
Thank you for your advice.
Milo
As a performing artist you have a perfect right to do whatever you like. If you succeed in creating the sound you are after, that is good. If others like it too that is even better.
There is, of course, a whole bunch of people out there ready to vilify anyone that departs in their interpretation from what they think is "correct". I dislike many of Glenn Gould's recordings, but one thing he got absolutely right. He gave Music's "politically correct" brigade the musical equivalent of a well known hand sign.
My own opinion is that a convincing and satisfying performance is most likely to result from achieving an understanding of what the composer was trying to achieve, and of the times they lived in, then constructing a performance that works now - today - in the 21st century, rather than trying to create a pastiche of a time that is gone forever.
Enough ranting and philosophy. This Gigue of Handel's can be played very well with no pedal at all - including the difficult bit you mention. I don't think it is necessary to use the pedal to smooth out this bar. You need to work on your fingering and technique instead. But I think there are many places where the richer sound from a touch of pedal lifts the whole piece.
There is, of course, a whole bunch of people out there ready to vilify anyone that departs in their interpretation from what they think is "correct". I dislike many of Glenn Gould's recordings, but one thing he got absolutely right. He gave Music's "politically correct" brigade the musical equivalent of a well known hand sign.
My own opinion is that a convincing and satisfying performance is most likely to result from achieving an understanding of what the composer was trying to achieve, and of the times they lived in, then constructing a performance that works now - today - in the 21st century, rather than trying to create a pastiche of a time that is gone forever.
Enough ranting and philosophy. This Gigue of Handel's can be played very well with no pedal at all - including the difficult bit you mention. I don't think it is necessary to use the pedal to smooth out this bar. You need to work on your fingering and technique instead. But I think there are many places where the richer sound from a touch of pedal lifts the whole piece.
No, I do not think pedalling is appropriate in such works.
I'm not a pianist, but I know the use of pedal. However, from the study of history of music for my AMusLCM diploma, pedal has rarely being used for Baroque music, yet mostly in Romantic music.
QUOTE(fyrtlemyrtle @ Aug 9 2008, 04:07 PM) 
No, I do not think pedalling is appropriate in such works.
I don't think that it is as black and white as this. Instrument design alters and improves over time and sometimes the additions may be used with good effect. Harpsichords may not have had sustaining pedals but the legato could be achieved in other ways. If you need a touch of pedal from time to time go ahead and add it, but keep it to a minimum and listen most carefully to the overall effect. Never cloud the piece by overusing it.
When I heard a Bach recital by Freddy Kempff (Goldberg Variations and a Partita) last year , he used pedal a lot, but didn't seem to lose clarity.
Our kids' first piano teacher encouraged them to practise pieces without the pedal whether or not the music needed it, the better to develop finger control, and also because every now and again, a pedal mechanism may fail, and it's useful to have enough technique to overcome the lack of it.
As far as baroque playing goes - Handel would not have had a sustaining mechanism to play those bars, so it must be possible to make sense of them without it, but you are playing a piano, not a harpsichord, so can make use of what the piano offers. It's not about pastiche of historical performance practice, it's about making musical sense with the instrument you have - the piano has its disadvantages when compared with the harpsichord, just as it has its advantages too. It makes sense to make use of what it can do, as long as the music is allowed to come first.
Historically informed playing very much has its place - I've often heard playing which takes no account of how things were done at the time the music was written, and the results can be awful - Handel played like Tschaikovsky is slushy and doleful, Handel played like Handel can be uplifting and delightful. Heavy vibrato in stringed instruments destroys the texture of baroque music, heavy use of the pedal on the piano will obscure and muddy delicate lines of counterpoint. People have written before on here that baroque music is clinical, emotionless, soulless, even; my feeling is that they are likely only to have heard performances by the uninformed who try to put romantic idiom into the wrong genre, and expect that to work.
As far as baroque playing goes - Handel would not have had a sustaining mechanism to play those bars, so it must be possible to make sense of them without it, but you are playing a piano, not a harpsichord, so can make use of what the piano offers. It's not about pastiche of historical performance practice, it's about making musical sense with the instrument you have - the piano has its disadvantages when compared with the harpsichord, just as it has its advantages too. It makes sense to make use of what it can do, as long as the music is allowed to come first.
Historically informed playing very much has its place - I've often heard playing which takes no account of how things were done at the time the music was written, and the results can be awful - Handel played like Tschaikovsky is slushy and doleful, Handel played like Handel can be uplifting and delightful. Heavy vibrato in stringed instruments destroys the texture of baroque music, heavy use of the pedal on the piano will obscure and muddy delicate lines of counterpoint. People have written before on here that baroque music is clinical, emotionless, soulless, even; my feeling is that they are likely only to have heard performances by the uninformed who try to put romantic idiom into the wrong genre, and expect that to work.
Was this piece originally for the harpsichord?
If so, it is probably a question of whether you want to try and use the piano to emulate a baroque harpsichord style, or whether you want to treat it as an arrangement for the piano and look at adding piano romanticism to the performance.
If so, it is probably a question of whether you want to try and use the piano to emulate a baroque harpsichord style, or whether you want to treat it as an arrangement for the piano and look at adding piano romanticism to the performance.
Perhaps I may take a slight issue here:
Denmark77's assertion that legato playing did not appear until the nineteenth century just does not stand up. Particularly so in Baroque times, where the greater number of published composers were heavily committed to religious music, and many, if not most Baroque composers were organists to a lesser or greater degree. They would be wholly familiar with and competent in legato as the fundamental technique required for performance on that instrument, Indeed, it is and always was impossible to play the organ without developing mastery of legato fingering patterns.
Of course, if we go back to the very early Baroque, and into the Rennaissance period we find keyboard playing without the use of thumbs ! But that is another story....
Regards,
Chris Baker
QUOTE(vectistim @ Aug 22 2008, 09:56 AM)
Was this piece originally for the harpsichord?
If so, it is probably a question of whether you want to try and use the piano to emulate a baroque harpsichord style, or whether you want to treat it as an arrangement for the piano and look at adding piano romanticism to the performance.
I think the OP just wants to pass their Grade 6 piano exam!
QUOTE(Mad Tom @ Aug 22 2008, 06:48 PM)
I think the OP just wants to pass their Grade 6 piano exam!
Stopperman,
In response to your claim that I asserted 'legato playing did not appear until the nineteenth century', that is not what I said. In my original post, what I actually said was 'legato playing did not become the NORM or the IDEAL until the nineteenth century'. In other words, I agree with you - legato playing was one of several styles of articulation available to the keyboard player during this period. This accords with my original post.
Yes I also agree with Mad Tom that OP just wants to pass their grade 6. But articulation is still a worthwhile and interesting topic of discussion, at any level. Pedalling changes the articulation, so it's certainly a challenge worth tackling - whether to pedal or not ? It's all dependent on the context of the piece, and Baroque style is more prone to interpretative difficulties than later periods, I think.
Anyway, good luck with your grade 6 OP !
denmark77
In response to your claim that I asserted 'legato playing did not appear until the nineteenth century', that is not what I said. In my original post, what I actually said was 'legato playing did not become the NORM or the IDEAL until the nineteenth century'. In other words, I agree with you - legato playing was one of several styles of articulation available to the keyboard player during this period. This accords with my original post.
Yes I also agree with Mad Tom that OP just wants to pass their grade 6. But articulation is still a worthwhile and interesting topic of discussion, at any level. Pedalling changes the articulation, so it's certainly a challenge worth tackling - whether to pedal or not ? It's all dependent on the context of the piece, and Baroque style is more prone to interpretative difficulties than later periods, I think.
Anyway, good luck with your grade 6 OP !
denmark77
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