Just out of interest, how many people who successfully take diplomas also work full time in a non-music-related job? When I took my Dip a few years ago I had loads of time for practice as I was doing 2 days a week temping and not much else! As I work full time now, I can't imagine being able to fit the necessary practice/lessons in that I would need should I want to try for the next one up (which I would still like to do one day, preferably before retirement...!).

I know lots of people who have done diplomas whilst having other (non-musical) jobs - include FRSMs. It is certainly possible but I think you really have to love your instrument, love the repertoire and generally be a bit mad to start with...

I agree with confutatis.

I also know some of these dedicated people who have successfully passed diplomas while simultaneously holding down full-time non-music related jobs. And yes, they love their instruments (I would go so far as to say they are married to them...), but in my experience, in many cases they are single (so only limited family commitments), and are slightly unhinged, to the point of getting up at 6am to fit in two hours solid practice before work every day

So it's the old problem of juggling life-work commitments while squeezing in the requisite time to give youself a decent shot at the higher levels of diploma. A lot of sacrifices seem to be needed, and being a bit selfish is not always a bad thing either.

denmark

Well, I got my ATCL while working full time as the Interim European Director of Finance for an American-owned company, including time spent preparing for the float of our division on the London Stock Exchange.

Did a lot of listening, thinking, singing along to recordings in the car commuting to the office each day, and hubby had a fair bit of evening and Saturday practice to put up with as well.


Gave up the day job some months before attempting my LTCL. Haven't gone back since.

I was working full time in the RAF when I was preparing for my LRSM. I used to practice for a couple of hours before work in the morning, and then another hour or so in the evening. I didn't have kids, and had a very tolerant husband, which helped!

Technically I work only part-time - 24 hours in General Practice (rarely managing to stick to the hours I'm supposed to put in - I often stay longer) - but did ATCL* on top of that, plus running a household - two kids, both doing dancing and music lessons themselves, husband in full-time job involving work on a Saturday afternoon as well - and an allotment, also being a member of a school board, and looking after the medical needs of a family member - there are all sorts of ways to fill the time available in a week, I find...

*and passed it

Did mine while working as a full time senior statistician/database designer for a government research organisation.

Just to make it a bit harder I put in the entry the weekend before I went for a job interview in Italy, for which I was successful (cue sorting out handovers etc for 20-odd years of work, not to mention major house clearing to make it acceptable as a rental property).

At the same time I managed to get myself talked into playing Lady Sybil Ramkin in Terry Pratchett's "Guards, Guards" to be performed shortly before the Diploma - a moment of sheer madness because I don't normally do non-singing parts as I find learning spoken lines hard, and I had to find a way of producing her "etch glass at a hundred yards" accent without compromising my singing voice...

Diploma practise went on during lunch breaks in our sports and social hut - I would pull the curtains so people walking past wouldn't know who was making all the racket inside.
Studying for the Viva/programme notes went on in the evenings alongside learning lines and sorting out 15 years of accumulated rubbish.

Amazing what you can do if you find you've committed yourself and there is no way out...

WOW. What an inspirational bunch of people!

Good thing you were preparing for a singing diploma! (Imagines practising the 'cello whilst driving to work... )

I practised for my recorder exam whilst driving to work .

(double-tonguing, and also listened to a lot of recordings...)

I dare say a cellist might practise fingering patterns on the steering wheel....

I'll second that. I'm kinda maybe perhaps thinking of going back to lessons, and would be considering working towards resitting my Diploma (well, it was an Amus.A in Australia but I think it's roughly equivalent). Right now I'm trying to work out if I can manage the time to practice, but after reading this thread, I'm thinking it might just be possible *starts getting nervous*

So when do you all practice? and how long do you think it might take me to get back up there? (haven't practiced seriously for about 5 years but I can still bash through some of my old pieces....slowly)

Yes, WOW

Even though I do like the idea of setting myself a challenge and having something to works towards, I've never been keen on the idea of a diploma (not that I'm currently anywhere near that standard ) as I feel I won't have enough time to give the full attention "diploma preparation" needs (whatever that means).

Maybe I should now reconsider

I really can't commit much time to practice at all - except in the runup to exams, I barely manage five hours a week. There'll be a few different kinds of practice session - there's the one in which I work on a piece, perhaps for an hour or so, steadily picking out the gremlins and doing detailed work: then there is playing with my husband accompanying me: there is "spot practice" in five-or ten-minute bursts whilst the rice is cooking, just picking up one tiny technical feature of a piece, and going over that: there is I-can't-be-bothered-to-work-properly time, when I pull out a whole raft of pieces and sightread through the lot (some of these by the same composers as the music I'm preparing for exams). Then there is playing with friends, which happens less often but is such fun. It all contributes to my general improvement, one way and another, and is mostly in sessions of less than two hours. I managed my ATCL like that - of course, the LTCL will be a different kettle of fish, and we'll have to see if the time available to me will be enough this time round.

I started formal lessons aged almost 13, though I had been messing about on the piano since I was 7 or 8 at my grandmother's house. I obtained my Grade 8 just over 4 years later aged 17, in 1972. Then played sporadically for the next 8 years, before re-starting lessons in 1980.

When I was preparing for my ALCM back in 1983 I was working as a full-time teacher in a middle school, teaching swimming at weekends to make some extra money, and was captain and secretary of the local chess club. I also found time to run for 40 minutes every day and compete in races from 5 miles up to marathon, and to train three times a week with the local swimming club. For all that I still found time to do an hour of scales and technical exercises and one to two hours of work on repertoire most days.

We had no car, no telephone, and no TV. That might have helped! Oh, and we had a new baby girl to look after too. Mozart and Beethoven turned out to be a very effective way of amusing her in her cradle. She would cry whenever I stopped playing!
---

Fast forward 24 years. In some of those years I once again hardly played piano at all - in others I worked quite hard at one of my lifetime ambitions - to play all the Beethoven Sonatas. [That ambition has now become a bit tougher - to play them all from memory. . I suspect Op. 106 might defeat me.]

Daughter now grown up and living in Australia. All other ambitions achieved, or abandoned - I started to work hard at piano again about 18 months ago. Right now I am working full time as a computer programmer at a bank in Utrecht. I am preparing for both the DipABRSM and the LRSM simultaneously. I am also working on other pieces for competitions, for other recitals and musical events, and for some chamber musicians that I play with, and even some (Czerny, Clementi, Cramer-Bulow, Moszkowski and Chopin Etudes) just for technical improvement.

I decided on the LRSM because it is more widely recognized than either the LLCM or the LTCL. But choosing the LRSM meant that I would need to obtain the DipABRSM first (the standard prerequisite for the LRSM). Also - because it is so long since I took a piano exam, I thought it would be wise to start back in again at a level that I would feel confident with. That was the theory - truth is I don't feel confident at all.

If I really feel up to it to I can - and sometimes do - get in 7 hours keyboard practice on a week-day (7:00-8:30 in the restaurant at work, 18:00-23:30 at the University practice rooms) and 12 hours a day at weekend (10:00-23:00 at the practice rooms with meal breaks). So I could theoretically practice 59 hours a week! But of course I'd never manage it for more than a couple of weeks, and I'd almost certainly develop injuries, and it would probably be counter productive too. It just isn't possible (for me) to maintain concentration for that long.

Typically I put in four or five hours a day at the piano on week days, and about six hours on Saturdays and alternate Sundays. I take a full Sunday off every fortnight to give my hands and arms a complete rest. When you take family holidays into account it averages out at about four hours a day - which seems to be about the optimum. There is also quite a lot of time spent studying music away from a keyboard.

*exhausted just reading that*

*will have to put up with "lesser" qualification, if she can get it, on much, much less work*

I'm actually not fully qualified to chime in here since I haven't "successfully" completed my exam
In fact, I failed the first time, but I fully understand why and I am confident I could do much better.

Quite a few people I know do this. I myself have a full-time schedule in the software industry and I also go to school part-time, taking mostly literature/humanities courses for fun. I don't think I'm particularly inspirational, though, because I'm just pursuing my own interests for my own enjoyment. The important thing to recognize, I believe, is that what I'm doing now actually gives me joy and pleasure and does not stress me out. And I will absolutely put a stop to these activities when I feel they're ruining my sanity.

I haven't 'successfully' taken a diploma, but I plan to!!
I have a two year old daughter and am 33 weeks pregnant. I study part time ( only a few hours each day) as well as being treasurer for a local community group and taking a weekly class of musical tots (both voluntary). We move around a lot due to my husband's work and because of this I am self teaching. I have a long way to go but the diploma in teaching is my goal and I think if you really want something and it is achievable, providing you put the work in you shall get it. Lack of time may mean it takes longer but it doesn't mean it won't happen.
A friend of mine left school at 16, got married and had 3 children. She started college part time at 20 and worked evenings in a bar. At 23 she started a part time degree course and now, all be it 7 yrs later (and a divorce) she is a university lecturer in her degree subject (Business).
That's an inspiration in my book.
I have another friend who has 3 children and along with working as a marketing consultant full time and competing British Equestrian most weekends, is studying for a degree in equine science. Again it will take her 6 years but she will do it!

None of that means that you cannot be an inspiration to others - you probably already are inspirational - by demonstrating what is possible

This is a very important point. For me several hours at the piano is no stress. Sitting at my lodgings doing something else when there is no piano available - that is stressful

As mine went a long time ago this is not something I need worry about

Define work. Two lively children is fairly hard work + running a business, yet there is a discipline in preparing for Diploma work that is rather enjoyable. The written work and research awakes my inner scholar. Learning the repertoire and really getting it under my skin is exactly the same discipline as preparing for an important recital.

It's fun, yet demanding and exacting. Believe me after grubbing around the floor singing nursery rhymes and building lego towers for several years, doing this sort of thing is a release.

I too am exhausted reading all these lists of achievements, especially Mad Tom who should be playing at the Albert Hall with all that practice!

Phew! The energy levels described on here are phenomenal and make me feel totally inadequate, because after a day at work very often I cannot be @*sed to sit at the piano and work.
Like anacrusis I tend to average about 5 hours a week yet managed recently to achieve the ATCL recital on that (ok, perhaps I worked a bit harder in the weeks leading up to it!)

I certainly could not have done it with small children around - although perhaps I could because I didn't resume my career until the youngest was 13.

Mel

(Another case of Imposter Syndrome.)

But I have 25 lost years that I can never make up for - which is when I ought to have been doing this hard work (16-25, 30-50). Perhaps then I might have played the Albert Hall. As it is I have left it a bit late for that! What did Pink Floyd say? "No-one told you when to run. You missed the starting gun" and "So you run and you run to catch up to the sun bit it's sinking"

But what are the ingredients of getting good at something?

1. Be born with natural gifts
This is outside my control - and yours! I have all the genetic gifts I shall ever have. All that any of us can do is make the most of what we are born with

2. Encounter the right environment in early childhood
And none of us can do much about this either. We did not all have the good fortune - musically speaking - to be born into a family like Bach's or Mozart's. But if you are a parent of young children you can do something to give your offspring a flying start

3. Decide while you are young what you want to achieve and stick at it
If you are still a teenager or young adult this choice is still possible - and it is worth making great efforts to get it right - but if you are that young you probably do not yet understand the importance of consistent hard work, maintained over a long period. Me? It might be nice to back to 1972 and choose a different future, but it is not possible, so it is not worth fretting over too much.

4. Practice/Study the right things, the right way
It is difficult to figure everything out for yourself from examples, books, and trial and error. The answer here is to find an excellent teacher. I am lucky. I have always managed to find a good teacher at every stage of my development as a pianist, beginner, improver, Diploma candidate, and now in the (belated) push to reach a professional standard

5. Put some serious effort into it
So this is the one factor that is entirely under my control - and that is true for all of us. When you have to do something else to make a living and/or have other commitments and interests it needs careful planning to make time for that serious effort, and it means making some hard choices. The hardest are forgoing simple pleasures that others take for granted (flopping in front of a TV for an hour or two), and giving up some serious interests and passions for the sake of others that matter to you more.

I haven't got as far as starting diploma work yet, but I suppose I have the advantage of beginning a 4 year degree alongside my diploma. Since my contact hours at uni will be able 12, and then I'll spend 12 hours working for money, I should have enough time to practice. I'm also looking to take teaching rather than performance first, so that will probably change the kind of hours I have to do.

My mum's working full time, managing moving house, two teenagers at home and church PCC while still managing to take her diploma to become a counsellor. I imagine that's a comparable work load to a music teaching diploma, especially once she's taking on 3 or 4 clients as well. I can see that it stresses her out no end, but she absolutely loves it.

I'm sure that it can be done, but as is almost always the case "good things come to those who are willing to sacrifice"

For me, it means planning, teaching and marking to the tune of about 55-60 hours a week on average. From where I am at the moment, I don't think preparing for a diploma will be physically possible, at least not while my evenings and weekends are eaten up like this (though I will be attempting to cut down as much as poss!). Cramming in the holidays is about as much as I think I can realistically do at the moment...


But people do change. I'm a very different person now to the one I was 15 years ago - different outlook and priorities... That's all part of being human, as far as I'm concerned and we shouldn't feel regretful/guilty about decisions made in the past because it's all part of making us who we are.


Good old Protestant work ethic...!

What you say is quite true, but my observation was in the context of what to do if you want to get really good at something. Of course you can change your mind and change direction later in life - but at the cost of never reaching the same heights (or having to work ten times harder) than if you'd made the same choice at a younger age.

Not everyone does discover their passion for something as a youngster though - I didn't until I was older, and have at least been able to bring to my music a good chunk of experience at Life, the Universe and Everything instead - I'll never be really,really good, but wouldn't have missed everything else in the process of getting as good as I can be in the circumstances - good enough to be happy at making music, and even good enough for others to enjoy listening, sometimes. Even that is a worthwhile goal .

Yes, and also we have developed skills at things other than music! To my mind, that's preferable to being great at just one thing...

It's perfectly possible. I got my first two diplomas (LLCM and LTCL performing) whilst working full time in accounts, running my husbands plumbing business and having two daughters in their early teens.
I then went to Trinity College of Music, commuting every day from Somerset to London. I went straight back to full time work in accounts and acquired a small number of singing students in the evenings, during which I passed ARCM performing and LTCL teaching dips. Student numbers grew and I was working 9-5 five days a week and teaching most evenings. That was the period I got FLCM and FTCL. All this time I was also doing a round trip of 250 miles on a Saturday to my singing lessons.
I gave up the day job several years ago, but I'm now teaching as my only income, with all the preparation work that involves, including two full-scale student concerts a year, two exam special visits, and three festivals. Still running husbands business, and now taken on the accounts for my daughter, who has become a driving instructor. Mustn't forget my performing work, too. Oh, and I'm nearing the end of an OU degree course and going through the process of becoming a festival adjucicator.
Next? When I graduate - hopefully next year, I'll then work towards FRSM and MA in music with OU.

Wow, Ann! Best of luck with your FRSM and MA. How long were you commuting to London for?

Two years. I did their flexible course, designed to bridge the gaps in my personal knowledge. It was there that I also did the studies for my teaching diploma. I was lucky to have a sponsor who paid my fees and travelling expenses, as I was a mature student.

I was in full time education when preparing for my diploma, I took my AS exams a month before the diploma itself, so it is possible.

Studying music diplomas but working full-time non-music job.

Fortunately I never face this situation.

Why? Have you never worked in a proper job?

Sorry - slip of the mouse ...

Yes, I do part-time job only.

I have just quit my full time job (as a I.T executive) and decided to be a full time housewife to take care my 2 year old son at home.
i finished my grade 8 since 17 years ago, and continue my dipABRSM recital piano private class last year. after reading the posts here, its really inspiring me to continue my diploma . i have some issue in my mind that i'm so confuse, may i have good advices for anyone here please?

1. i'm very down and demotivated now , i feel like giving up my piano class anytime from now because my teacher always put me down - since i stopped my piano for 17 years, i have weak fingers and and technique , need to pick up slowly . my teacher love to remind me i'm a very weak student of hers and not a music talent person, such words really demotivate me everytime when i see her.
how should solve this with her? i can't confront her because she will be mad if i don't respect her view.i admit i'm very weak in technique now but i do want to try to pick up piano again, i do wish to learn . i need more time to work for better technique

2. if i choose to learn the piece myself, any method i can learn to analyse the piece myself without going a regular weekly classes like now?

3. at this moment, i only practise 4 hours per week, i don't deny i'm lack of commitment, but i do feel demotivate to sit in front of my piano everytime when i think of my teacher's comment . any method to help myself to pick up a good practise guide???

4. normally how many hours per day of practise is sufficient if i plan to take exam in 1 year later?

5. how do you choose a good teacher? normally each lesson, do you learn one page pr few bars of a piece or more?

6. how to tell your teacher that you want to stop the lesson and look for others without offending her?

If your teacher loves to tell you that you are untalented and unmusical you must NOT worry about finding a polite way to end your lessons with her. Tell her that you find her manner offensive and unhelpful and that you will be taking your custom to a teacher who values every pupil without comparing them to others.

Seriously.

Good for you

Whatever you do DON'T give up. You'll regret it. The technique comes back with practice - that is all.

From my own experience, and from everything I have read, the optimum is Four hours per DAY. But if you are planning to go from a lapsed grade 8 to diploma standard in a year then I reckon it is do-able in 2 hours a day of very well planned and disciplined practice.

You have to trust your intuition and feelings on this. You will know when you have the right teacher. As for how much you do in a lesson it varies, but the higher the level you aspire too, the more likely you are to do a lot of detailed, painstaking work on just a few measures at a time. It is assumed that you know enough to practice scales, exercises, studies, and keep some repertoire up to date, and that you know how to study a new piece. If you aren't sure - ask!

You just say. "These lessons are not helping me to improve my playing, and I will not be attending any more." Thank your teacher for their time and effort - and leave. That is all there is to it. There is no need to say more unless you are asked, in which case you can simply state the the constant criticism and comparison with other stronger students is undermining your motivation.

Hardly surprising!


leave!


you probably can't so just bite the bullet and get it over with!

Good luck. Everything MadTom has said is good advice. Well, almost everything!!

thank you so much for the advices, i really appreciate it:)

Now I'm trying to practise hard to proof her that i'm working towards my goal and i'm not as bad as what she always condemn me. No idea is it a good method or not because i leave now, our relationship will turn sour , sigh

But what does it really matter if you have a bad relationship with what sounds like an unprofessional teacher who will no longer be teaching you.

You're an adult. You are paying for piano lessons. You don't need to prove to her that you can work. The only person you really need to worry about is yourself.

However good this woman is, it doesn't sound like you have a very good teacher-pupil relationship, so vote with your feet and find someone else. Don't let someone tell you you're rubbish, because you're not. You probably just need a new teacher.

I would just like to agree with the other comments...

...as a teacher myself I would be HORRIFIED if I felt my comments were 'reducing' the enthusiasm of one of my pupils. Sometimes you have to be strict but honestly...

There are plenty of piano teachers in the world. Even if the teacher you move to is not as technically proficient as your current tyrant you will probably play better because of the encouragement and joy to be playing. It's impossible to play well if you you don't feel you want to.

I do agree with everyone who says leave your current teacher.

I was taught by some-one who no doubt was a good teacher for some people, but I found that he would pick holes in my work without offering any praise - and surely some of it was good! I later went to a different teacher who took me through my diploma - so my playing was probably not that bad!

Ask around to see whether you can find someone who is an encouraging teacher and then you will feel better about your playing and want to do more.

Hi! I would like to share about my experience.
I'm a career changer - from an accountant to piano teacher.
It happened back in 2006 when the accounting boredom struck me and passion in music grew. Back then I only have Grade 8 practical and Grade 5 theory. I quitted my office job and started teaching a couple of lower grade pupils. At the same time i take lessons with a qualified teacher. In 3 years time I managed to get an LTCL diploma! Its such a rewarding outcome... i now enjoy teaching and always happy to upgrade myself, including pursuing a teaching diploma as well as music theory diplomas.

So, it started in 2006, and three years later you got your LTCL? Are you a time-traveller by any chance?

Judging from the replies to this thread, for a musician anything is possible - so who knows!