QUOTE(Noodelz @ Aug 25 2008, 04:54 PM)

QUOTE(sarah-flute @ Aug 25 2008, 01:46 PM)

I think few if any people are suggesting that notation is the most important thing in music.
There are some on this thread who think that. Arguing that children should definitely be able to read music suggests that it is a vital aspect of learning music if not one of the most important aspects. It is a vital aspect in the serious study of Western Classical music but not music in general. I agree that basic theory skills should be taught and taught well in school and I said this in my previous post. I just wanted to remind people before they got carried away that notation isn’t the only language of music.
"Some"/"few" - and I have to say I still disagree, I think a lot of people are saying it's important - which it is - not that it is THE most important thing. You are reading people's comments saying it's vital for study of many aspects of music and assuming people think it's the be all and end all. Very few people think that.
As Cyrilla says, it needs to be learned alongside (possibly more-or-less after, in terms of each particular note and symbol etc) all the aural and practical sides of music, but few would attempt to study literature without learning to read. I don't think I have read any posts that have suggested the writer has got "carried away" or believes that Western notation is "the only language of music". I certainly don't, and it's clear to me reading through others' posts that most people writing here don't. It is, however, just as foolish to get "carried away" and dismiss notation and musical theory as unnecessary. Notation isn't merely the preserve of those who wish to study musical academically.
Of course there is more to music than notation, but it is useful - why do we insist on throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
QUOTE(Noodelz @ Aug 25 2008, 04:54 PM)

However, maybe we should first decide on what we want schools to teach. Is it supposed to be the same as private music lessons? Maybe not. If you want children to receive classical training then I think that it has to be done through other means.
No, you wouldn't expect children to be taught the same as in private music lessons, as private music lessons are usually taken with the aim of learning an instrument: not
usually practical in a class of 30 except with an exceptional teacher.
(Though of course there are strong arguments for the teaching of basic musical education and understanding prior to getting one's hands on an instrument, and that is certainly something that
can (IMO should) be taught in school. Pre National Curriculum, I was lucky enough to be at a school as a toddler and youngster whose teachers recognised the value of "musical education" away from the study of an instrument, and who had the freedom to teach something they considered important. Although I probably had only a couple of years of the benefit of that, benefit I most assuredly did... singing and "music and movement" and so on were all great precursors and additions alongside the instrumental tuition I received)
But one does expect students to be taught SOMETHING, and for that something to be of real value. IMO, most school music lessons in my experience and, bar a few exceptions from exceptional schools, teach very little at all up to GCSE level, teach some stuff of value (but ignoring huge chunks of the wide world of music) during GCSE, and then struggle to catch up at A level. A considerable part of our A level classes were spent on people being taught the things they IMO should have been taught long before even GCSE.
QUOTE(Noodelz @ Aug 25 2008, 04:54 PM)

If you want children to receive classical training then I think that it has to be done through other means.
Excuse me, but why does
classical music "have" to be taught through other means? Why on earth should it only be available to an elite, or only be available as an "add on" outside school? Of course we shouldn't discriminate against the kids whose main interest is in popular music, but why does that make it OK to discriminate against classical music??? Rather inconsistent, don't you think?
And classical music is far, far from the only arena where an understanding and ability to read musical notation is a useful skill... just because that is where it developed into the system as we know it today doesn't make it only applicable when studying that school of music.
One has to say it's not JUST about GCSE. I know of people who never got to study O Level because they didn't have the requisite requirements. To me, that is a failure on the part of the music teachers to get the students to a standard where they could take that course more than that the course is "too hard". And I think that failure for most kids reaches back a lot further than the GCSE choices at the end of year nine, which is a great shame when I do believe that most children, given the opportunity, could learn something really valuable even if they never took the subject for extra study.
QUOTE(Noodelz @ Aug 25 2008, 04:54 PM)

GCSE music right now gives people an opportunity to make music and understand it a little better but not everybody wants to play in a youth orchestra. Some people want to play in a guitar band and some want to rap. Many kids feel that that sort of music is their own and do not want to learn how to play in an orchestra just as how some do not want to make an R n B song. For these, music theory is not as important. It's more important for them to understand how to use cadences rather than knowing what each one is called. That is why I disagree with some who feel that reading music is a requirement to take GCSE music.
A lot of those kids don't want to do those things, granted, but some of them have never had the chance to find out if they might actually enjoy doing them if they had the option. Better teaching earlier in the school curriculum would actually give those kids a taste of formal Western music, (and indeed other musics, why not, but why should they be denied the chance to experience and understand classical music?) AND a far better basis and understanding for any other type of music they should choose to study. Personally I think that it's fine to study other areas of music
as part of GCSEs.
As it stands, unless they have tuition outside of school, for many children the avenue of classical music is firmly closed. And frankly, you need more thorough understanding of music (written or otherwise) to play in a band than most (heck, almost all) children receive from music lessons in schools.
I also disagree that musical theory "isn't important" to people just because they are more interested in R n B or rap. Knowing how to use cadences IS musical theory, whether formally taught or not - and what is rap about if not pulse and rhythm??? Yes, you can learn to understand those things without
notation, but not without theory, whether that theory is something learned in the classroom or from spending hours playing with more experienced musicians. (And by the way how many kids have that opportunity to make up for the rather lacklustre teaching in school, hmm? Ideally, all children would have an opportunity like that even if just to see if it is something they want to do, and the chance to learn to read music, et cetera. In reality it's unlikely. But the things that
can be provided
should be.) Saying that's it's not theory because it's not taught in a classroom is, frankly, simply wrong.
Being able to read music, even if not especially fluently, opens up a whole new range of possibilities, whole new areas of study, and could even spark an interest in something that would otherwise appear a closed book. Some kids will take to it, some won't, but why shouldn't they all get the chance to try?
A significant chunk of my GCSE music listening was writing down impressions and descriptions of a piece of music - we used to compete as to getting certain buzzwords our teachers liked into our descriptions. It didn't teach any of us how to analyse the music, anything about harmony, how to be more effective musicians or composers ourselves, anything about the history of the music we were studying or how to know which era/tradition it came from; it taught us how to waffle and get marks for it.
I believe things have improved on that front, but the last set of GCSE papers I saw still required a good amount of work that was, more or less, waffle, and was too airy-fairy for the ability to complete the questions to actually be of any serious use/value.
And at the risk of repeating myself, it would be a different kettle of fish if the choice we had was between a bunch of kids who could read music vs a bunch of kids with amazing aural ability and understanding. In my experience, that is a long, long way from reality. It's not really about notation vs aural understanding, and reducing it to those terms
utterly misses the point.
If children were taught well and earlier, then they could both be able to learn the basics of reading music and have a reasonably good aural understanding and ability long before GCSE options came along - enough for them to pursue the subject if they wanted to (and this, frankly, is where choice comes in for most children, and rightly so - just as most children do not decide to become authors when they grow up before they can read... it could be argued that even this is too early for some).
QUOTE(Noodelz @ Aug 25 2008, 04:54 PM)

At first the obvious answer is yes but maybe having two types of music GCSE can be an option as someone else has already suggested. One could be a course that is similar to what GCSE music is now and one could be centred on a more serious study of classical music that can lead nicely on to A level.
That is a sticking plaster on the problem, and makes formal music education into even more of an elite for those who have had the outside help necessary to take on the more practical GCSE. (You argue against elitism and yet endorse a system that would make musical education even less available to those without the money or support to pursue it - please, think about what you are saying!)
My point is that it would be a heck of a lot better for children to all be given the basics (I'm not expecting all year nine students to be grade 5 equivalent in theory, but far too many kids get to that level with essentially no understanding of pulse/rhythm, not even a basic grasp of notation, and so on) so that they 1) had the choice, the chance, to go on to study music (any kind of music!) in a more in depth manner if they wanted to and 2) had a foundation that they could build on if they wished to sing in a choir, play in a band, learn an instrument, and so on. Why should only the kids who had the outside help to be able to take a more serious GCSE be given that chance? Why should they be made to make, at the age of 13 or 14, the decision as to whether they might want to study music seriously in 3 or 5 years' time? (A level/uni)
We don't expect children to choose between: a French GCSE which attempts to give them some measure of understanding of grammar, an ability to conduct simple conversations in French, some ability to read and write the language and pick up the gist of spoken French; and a French GCSE which aims to have them speak a few sentences that they have learned by rote and be able to differentiate between French and Chinese and say why French sounds different from Chinese. "French Appreciation GCSE" anyone??! Maybe they should offer Maths appreciation as well, where one can describe the difference in appearance between two different equations. Ridiculous suggestions, yes

- but why is it suddenly OK to suggest this when it comes to music?
Yes, having two streams of GCSE would solve the immediate problem. I don't believe it is a solution to the underlying issue of bad or nonexistent musical education, or that a "solution" which basically recognises music as a second class subject where it doesn't matter if one cannot be bothered to do the hard work instead of DOING something about it is anything anyone who loves music should see as a good thing.
We expect teachers to try and teach them something genuinely worthwhile, useful, and applicable, that will enable them, if they so choose, to study French or Maths or whatever to a higher level (even if there will, inevitably, be a gap in real life between the subject as one is taught to get through the exam and what will be required to study to A level and beyond).
There are schools out there that attempt to do this for kids studying music, but they have less and less motivation to give children even the basics when the exam boards decide that these things aren't important enough for GCSE students. The message is there that music just isn't as important, valuable or interesting as another subject.
(How effective the French GCSE is is of course debatable but that is another story: The aim is, at least, a good one)
QUOTE(Noodelz @ Aug 25 2008, 04:54 PM)

Of course, it would help massively if children were taught a lot earlier on about basic music theory as you say so there is no gap but we should respect that not everybody wants to learn about the academic side of music. I’m assuming that you think GCSE music should teach something that better resembles what we’ve learnt through private lessons and be more academic. We should give kids the skills and tools to learn classical music, etc. but we must respect them if they choose not to and we must accept that they want to learn slightly different things. I think we probably agree that children should be taught theory early on but we shouldn’t discriminate against those who want to write rap songs by encouraging them to play in an orchestra.
You're assuming things that I have not said. I don't actually think that ALL of what current GCSE syllabi teach is useless/worthless. I do think that it is hopelessly weighted in the direction of "let's make it accessible" ignoring the "let's teach something worthwhile".
As others have said, there are a lot of kids who would rather not learn the academic side of _anything_ - but certain subjects are compulsory, and in others there are accepted standards that are considered reasonable, and worthwhile working towards. We don't consider that to be unfair or unreasonable. But in music it seems that if it's too hard to do without some hard work and some discipline, then it is abandoned.
It's all very well saying "they don't want to" - how do you know that when a large proportion of children have never been given the chance to, never been given the tools to?
And as for respecting what children do or don't want to do - I'm sorry, but in that case why don't we make all education optional? After all, not all children want to learn to read, so why should we discriminate against them??! Think about what you are saying!
As I have said in previous posts, the fact remains that most things that are worth doing at all, will require some hard work and discipline at some stage. School music as it stands lets a minority study music to a level where they have the knowledge, tools, appreciation to say "I want to play jazz/classical/study the violin/learn to play a drum kit" because they have had outside help in some form, a talented few who don't have the support to dive in and manage without much help, (and both those scenarios rely on a level of school/county/local extra-curricular activity that is not available to all children) and the rest hardly have a chance to even find out if music is something they might actually enjoy. I find that an extremely sad reality.
QUOTE(Noodelz @ Aug 25 2008, 04:54 PM)

This isn't dumbing down a subject;
Sorry, I'm just going to have to say this here - yes it is, and you are wrong.
QUOTE(Noodelz @ Aug 25 2008, 04:54 PM)

this is just changing it to cater for people. Making pop songs, learning its history and understanding it isn't always easier. It's just different.
Again - I never said there was no value to those things. As for catering for people, there are a lot of kids who either don't do music, or do it under duress, because the way secondary music lessons are structured and taught these days isn't teaching them what they
want to know. What about those kids?
And there so many people who discover music later in life and rue the fact they are starting from scratch... they didn't know music was fun or that they were capable of being part of it because they had not been taught the basics that would enable them to explore it. What they had learned from school lessons was that music was pointless and difficult, and that if they didn't have outside help then they had no chance of being any good at it or of getting any enjoyment from it. Isn't that sad?? I don't understand why that doesn't make anyone who loves music absolutely furious. Wouldn't it be better if school lessons had taught them that music was hard work, but also extremely worthwhile, and a lot of fun to boot?
I also find it really weird that anyone would consider it's perfectly OK to chop out one musical tradition, but chopping out another would be "discriminating"... - I'm repeating myself, but please, THINK for a second before typing...
I don't know, nor do I pretend to know, how one would go about improving musical education so that all children got a stab at it. But you only have to read Cyrilla's posts to see that it's possible for all children to be given a basic understanding and appreciation, if the people in charge of educating them think that's a worthwhile aim.. Read about the otherwise ordinary children given a wonderful start in music in Hungary, and how talented and capable their choirs have become, giving those children the best possible start if they want to play or sing in any musical tradition, and a wonderful ability to read and sing music for their whole lives even if they don't pursue it formally; then look at the majority of schools in this country where most kids aren't even given the chance, and tell me that the UK's kids aren't missing out.
Forgive me if I sound cross about this subject. It's because I am.
Cyrilla, Claire, Aquarelle, Crotcheymum - I'm glad it's not just me!
GOW and not ashamed.