What is the difference between a musical and an opera? I hardly know any opera, but was lent Britten's Peter Grimes and am really enjoying it. I always considered that opera was sung in Italian, German or French.

Does a musical have dancing as well?

I just wondered.

Opera can originate in any language - Peter Grimes was written in English. Opera may - and is - also performed in English (all English National Opera's performances are in English, for instance).
The main difference is that, in grand opera, all the action is performed to music. The action takes place during recitative - words sung to music in speech rhythm - with the arias pausing the action to sing around the subject. In light opera and musicals, there are episodes of spoken dialogue to further the plot. Opera can also have dancing.

I'm not sure it's quite so simplistic:


By the time you reach Wagner, Strauss and Puccini, recitative had all but disappeared.


I'd hesitate to call Die Zauberflote, Der Freischutz or Carmen "light opera".

The difference between Light opera (operetta) and musicals?

eg Die Fledermaus vs West Side Story?

Not sure, but perhaps we could say that light opera is like an opera, ie songs that are important to the story, interspersed with short periods of dialogue, whereas a musical is mainly dialogue with short song/dance routines that are not an essential part of the story line?

But then Lloyd Weber's musical 'Joseph...Dreamcoat' would therefore be an operetta.



Steve

Here is another angle:

Operas often have completely ridiculous story lines that would be impractical as a straight play, musicals often have a reasonable story line that would be far better as a straight play.

Yes, who on earth would stage those daft Shakespeare plots as straight plays?

Like Mary Poppins and Chitty chitty bang bang?

Steve

Is it that musicals are miked and over-amplified? Presumably so you can hear it over the sound of background chatter and rustling crisp packets.

It's sadly not all that simple, and generations of musicologists have killed each other over this subject

Take many French Operas, for instance, which can contain massive amounts of ballet: They are still operas and not musicals.

Still, the main differences are normally:

Opera vs. Singspiel ("song-play"): Singspiel (e.g. "Die Zauberflote") is a German form of music theatre and has developped from the Opera comique. The main difference to an Opera buffa is that there are no recitatives, but spoken dialogue. Still, it is much closer to opera than to drama or comedy, because the music has a bigger part and is essential to the plot. Carmen is an Opera comique because of the spoken dialogue, although the plot is not comical at all. That's why some people rather call it "Opera lyrique" ...

European Operetta (English, French, German and also the Spanish Zarzuela) is very close to the idea of Opera comique and Singspiel, but you could say that compared to opera, it is straightforward light entertainment and composed as such: The music is developped to be more crowd-pleasing (in its time!) and both lyrics and music are easily understood, even of people who are not that (musically) educated. It is usually composed in the country's native language so everyone can understand it, while opera for a very long time was composed for aristocrats and the so-called educated people, and not necessarily in their first language but rather Italian or French.

Musical in its origin is a strictly American form of music theatre and is quite close to the idea of operettas (and no, originally amplification has nothing to do with it ). Still, there are many types of musicals, so you cannot really throw them all in one pot. They do not necessarily have spoken dialogue in it (think of "Les Mis" as the most popular example), neither do they, in these days, have to consist of very simplistic music (just think of Sondheim!). It is merely a rule of thumb than a strict rule that musicals are light entertainment, but it was the basic idea ...

One could really spend ages in writing down the history of all the different forms of music theatre, but maybe that's enough as a short introduction

And with that I will put my case down and let it rest!

(Off hand I can only think of Macbeth and Midsummer, both of which are farces)

Otello??

people talk in musicals but in operas they don't talk

Yes they do! Read the posts above. Magic Flute, to name just one.

there's conversations in some operas

oh yeah!! sorry that i left out the Singspiels. such as mozart's magic flute, beethoven's fidelio and kurt weill's three penny opera etc...

and Singspiel is a german tradition.

Actually , Weill and Brecht would have said that that piece is a *Song*spiel (sic) - but that's a whole other issue...

I've seen it said that for opera you need singers who can act, and for musicals you need actors who can sing.

But I'm sure there's exceptions to that rule too...

Mezzo and Alder have given two great descriptions. Well done. Stage works with the association of both music and words have been around for thousands of years. It doesn't matter too much what titles they are given. My favourite stage work is actually called a Serenata!

That's an excellent definition I think - having worked with both opera and musical companies...

Musicals have a happy ending whereas in opera the the hero/heroine meets an untimely death




(yes, a gross generalisation I know )

You've seen Les Mis? Or West Side Story? Carousel, even?

Albert Herring ends happily enough, and nobody dies - but here I'm struggling to think of many others.

The Peaches Guide to the Difference between Opera and Musicals....

Musicals - I can listen to these
Operas - hurt my ears

Doesn't matter how hard I try ..... I can't listen to opera without wanting to cover my ears ...

I've always considered it a question of musical style. The music is sung and played differently. Other than that there can be far-fetched story lines in both, talking and dancing in both etc. Opera seems to require a more lyric quality to the music than does musical theatre.

There is, of course, a fair chance that our musicals of today will end up as the 'opera equivalent' of tomorrow.

Le nozze di Figaro
Die Zauberflote
Falstaff
Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
Arabella

Just a few with a zero body count at the end, and where the goodies are happy and the baddies punished

Thats what they are! haven't you seen Amadeus
but seriously, Carmen and Zauberflote are definitely light opera, the Mozart for one is Singspiel (not to be confused with Sprechstimme! ), a genre characterised by light hearted fantasy, its no more serious than G+S



Opera isn't exactly dead - who saw Birtwhistle's Minotaur on BBC the other week?

Seen it live - it was stunning.

But NB it's BirtWISTLE (no H) - people spelling him wrong must be the bane of his life.

The difference between an opera and a musical is about £100 a ticket.

As witty as ever!

Maybe for the top price tickets, but not for the cheaper ones. My cheap tickets for forthcoming performances at Covent Garden range from £10 to £12.50, and Friend Google has advised that the cheapest tickets for Les Miserables are £15, The Lion King are £20 and We Will Rock You are a whopping £35.

Yes, but there's a difference between cost and value for money.

On average, the standard of singing is higher in Opera, and the standard of dancing is higher in Musicals!

In an equally well trained cast, I'd think the standard would be identical - the style (and therefore soundà is different, certainly, but I don't class the classical sound as being more worthy than the musical sound (or the rock sound, or gospel etc., for that matter). The standard of singing is directly comparable in most cases in my opinion.

This is not strictly true. In earlier opera (Purcell's Dido and Aeneas, for example) the da capo arias did indeed pause the action, but in later opera, when double arias were introduced, they actually helped to further the plot.

So - is there a definitive answer?

There doesn't seem to be a simple answer to this question. Even musicologists can't agree on the difference.

It seems to come down to whether or not the composer themselves decided to call the piece an opera or a musical.

And Just to throw a spanner in the works, what about Stephen Sondhiems Sweeny Todd...now if that doesn't qualify as a modern Opera I can't imagine why...there is very little dialogue, there are however trios, quartets, some highly complex song patterns, one song overleafing another and to my mind is every bit as credible as some other so called Modern Operas...As for a happy ending well Sweeny Todd couldn't be sadder or gorier for that matter...the body count is huge...he even slaughters his own ex wife, then his girlfriend gets roasted alive in an oven...now thats cheery...

Andrew

Right, you've definitely put me off modern opera now. I saw that show and found it so unbearable that I decided to cut my losses and go home after the interval

So did I!!

It was very gruesome I do accept that, but if you for example listened to a recording of it without having to sit through the gore then how would you percieve it? Opera or Musical?

It doesn't matter what you call it ... it is by far the worst film I have ever seen.

Then you haven't seen "The Producers"...

Even though I didn't like it, I still agree that it could be classed as an opera.

What about Phantom of the Opera? Is that an Opera? I don't remember much in the way of dialogue.

Ah yes the dreaded film, I am referring to the staged version..The orignal cast which I saw was Len Cariou and Angela Lansbury, can't recall who played Toby or Joanna but this was a steller production, Carriou was superb, Lansbury as Mrs. Lovett was breathtaking, her control and interpretation of some very complex lyrics defied belief...The recently released film with Johnny Depp and Helena Bonham-Carter was though very interestly filmed/filtered had many of the songs missing, most of the Duets and the Quartet was gone, its a very lengthy score and they cropped it brutally for film...

If you get the chance to hear a recording of it with the original broadway cast as mentioned above, do listen to what is a masterfull performance...

Andrew




I loved "The Producers", both versions, the original with Zero Moestel and Gene Wilder and the recently released version with Nathan Lane and Mathew Broderick (who knew he could sing?)...Yes I know this is not a modern opera but the Camp Hitler paying homage to Judy Garland in the musical/staged scenes were priceless...The slightly irritating Will Self did manage to hold it together without returning to his usual hysterical screaming which drives me insane. John Barrowman was in superb voice hence he is a hugely succesful star of the West End and Broadway. Not everyones cup of tea but a decent remake of a very funny film..

Andrew