I started learning French Horn as an adult beginner about 5 or 6 months ago. I'm loving it - partly because it's so hard and I'm a sucker for punishment ;-)

Just wondering if there are other horn players out there? About time there was a french horn thread on here....

Any tips? What are you using for your instrument - how long have you been playing, etc.?

I'm using a Yamaha 567, after an initial daliance with a chinese import instrument - which was a waste of time, but got me to the stage where I was willing to spend on a better instrument. I tried a few mouthpieces, but have settled on a PHC 'N' mouthpiece rim which works for my rather large lips. So far on a good day I can reach the 'C' above middle C, but it's flakey at best. I'm slowly gaining a little accuracy, but finding slurring very hard to do cleanly.

All good fun....

Yep, funnily enough I am a horn player
Ive been playing F horn for 7 years and tenor horn longer (though I dont have one at the minute). At the moment though Im playing on a Holton H478.

Im glad to see that the viva Brass forum is slowly being taken over by us horn players

I also play the horn, I've been playing for 2 years now. As you say it is a very hard instrument to play, but I also find it very rewarding. I play a Holton H180.

I started on cornet c. 1947, tenor horn 1948, cornet again from 1950 to 1952, all borrowed from my brass band or my uncle, who was also my bandmaster. In 1951, I got my first orchestral horn, a "peashooter" (single horn with F crook, French style, probably English make, but no visible maker's name). That lasted me until 1956, when I sold it and bought a Cazzani compensator, a big upgrade. Next upgrade was to a pre-war Alexander 103 full double horn, with hollow valves to save weight, a beautiful instrument, much used, that I still have but rarely play in public. I have added to that first another Alexander, Bb and F alto full double; a Boosey Sotone, from which I have had the valves removed, and for which I have bought additional crooks and couplers, so that I can configure it as a natural horn in all keys from Bb alto to Bb basso; and a Hoyer full double in F and Bb. I would describe the second Alexander as my main instrument nowadays, but for also playing string bass, and being more welcome on that in the sort of amateur orchestra in which I like to play: they mostly have better horn players than I am as age reduces my muscle tone and stamina, though I still help out in my main orchestra if they lose a player near the concert. I also play horn a few times each year in wind ensemble music with friends, one such outing being next Sunday.

My main tip on playing the horn accurately is to learn to sing at sight. The two capabilities are closely related: to play a note accurately on the horn, it is extremely helpful to hear the pitch in ones head beforehand. I won't go into detail here, as I have contributed to a long thread on sight singing elsewhere on this site.

Interesting stuff Ken, thanks for sharing! Regarding your comment about sight singing, I'm personally amazed at how well my ear has progressed since starting the horn. As you say, if you can't hear it in your head beforehand, it doesn't come out.
I also play flute and have noticed that I can now play back a tune I know well without music - that is, I can work out the melody after a couple of tries; something I could never do before. I think that this is entirely due to the horn. Very early on, my teacher encouraged me to discard the tuner I was using and learn to hear what I was playing. I still occasionally dig out the tuner to help me figure out where I am if I get stuck, but most of the time I can 'hear' the notes and recognise them quite well.



Is the tenor horn similar to the horn when played? I haven't encountered one before...

The tenor horn is like a mini mini tuba, and it doesn't sound as nice

I've played for about a year now and I play a Holton 179. It's silver plated and very sparkly!! But I know I will eventually want a German or an English one...give it another few years

Horns rule!

And I thought this forum died ages ago

I believe that was how it worked for me too. I did very little singing before taking up the horn; then, when I got to college, I found that I was one of the best sight readers in the choir. Of course, every instrumentalist should be rock solid on the time values, of both notes and rests (though sadly it seem that some amateurs of middling experience work out rest values by adding up the note values and subtracting from the duration given by the time signature) but among the common orchestral instruments, the horn makes most demands upon the pitch capability of the inner ear.

The tenor and baritone horns (known as alto and tenor in the US) are part of the family of saxhorns. These were patented by Adolphe Sax, the Belgian inventor, designer and manufacturer of musical instruments, in 1845, though his claim to original invention was challenged at the time; the sopranino and soprano members of the family resemble the corresponding cornets, differing, in some of Sax's versions, by being upright. The largest member of the family is a contrabass in Bb; the tubas resemble the low saxhorns in form, but were invented independently and have a somewhat larger bore, giving a more robust sound. Especially in the US, instruments intermediate in bore and sound between baritone horn and tenor tuba (= euphonium) exist.

The Eb alto saxhorn (= tenor horn, UK) covers the top end of the range of the orchestral horn, the limit upward being determined by the player on both instruments. Because the instrument has only three valves, there is a gap in its chromatic range. The lowest "unfaked" note above the gap, and the practical limit for most players, is A space in bass clef, with the theoretical limit being an octave lower. The full double horn in F and Bb alto has a practical limit for most players around a tenth below that, but some players can descend further. The theoretical limit is a concert B, nearly an octave below the theoretical limit on the tenor horn and nearly two below the practical one. Orchestral horns exist in a large variety of valve configurations, so theoretical limits also vary widely, practical ones considerably less so.

The tenor horn is a much easier instrument to play than the orchestral horn, so much so that it is the traditional beginner's instrument in some brass bands, where the player can observe the others and later transfer to the one that attracts him/her, or the one on which a vacancy appears. From tenor horn moves to baritone horn are easy, to cornet slightly more difficult. The sound is mellow to the point of blandness and less varied than that of the orchestral horn. The tenor horn can be muted, but the orchestral horn has the additional option of hand stopping, which allows portamento as a special effect (used in the Britten "Serenade").

Hi,

Another horn player here! I played it for about 3 years, got into various bands, university symphony orchestras etc, then damaged my back and stopped for nearly 3 years. Started again less than a year ago and it is just like starting for the first time (especially as I am now using a different set of fingerings). Thankfully I am now aware of some of the pitfalls and so can avoid them in learning. I have only been playing on and off since I restarted (testing to see if it hurts my back) but have now found how I can play without problems and so am starting seriously from now-ish. But it is annoying currently only being about Grade 3-4 standard technically!

I play a 1920s Alexander 103 as it is nice, good sound and light (thin brass). I used to play on an Alexander 104 but it was too heavy, hence back problems. I started on a Danor. I use an Alexander mouthpiece, 11 or 12, I can't remember offhand!

Bflat, I have a similar thing in that I find it really hard or frustrating to play, and it is the only instrument on which I get really nervous performing, but partly because of that, I like to play it, especially when it finally goes correctly. I also agree with the comments about sight-singing and horn playing being very closely linked.

Moose

Also hollow valve rotors, which they used because in those days, one of the major objections to the double horn was its weight. They reverted to solid rotors later, when double horns became standard, as they were less liable to damage.

Incidentally, I wonder which side of the double horn most people use more. I think that I'm atypical in that I always start pupils off on the F side, only getting on to the B-flat side when they start using high Ds (second line down). It worries me that the very nature of horn playing is changing by the increasingly ubiquitous use of the B-flat side - I've come across several young players that use B-flat fingerings all the time, even in the lower range, and don't even know the F fingerings, even when they've got fancy double horns!

To me, it would be rather like trumpet players playing ALL the repertoire on an Eb trumpet rather than a Bb - not only is the actual sound much brighter, but the added security of pitching means that players approach the music differently.

That was the approach of my first horn teacher, Charles Gregory. There is a consensus among the horn players whom I respect that your approach starts the beginner with the right sound, so that if they use more of the alto side later they know how to avoid its brighter sound. Nowadays (for greater security in my old age ), I play a Bb and F alto, using the F alto only above the stave unless I am short of practice, but I do very little orchestral playing, and the lighter sound of the Bb instrument is possibly more compatible with the woodwind in my typical chamber music group.

I must confess I went though a phase of solely using B-flat fingerings yet having a fancy double horn although this was not for the security to begin with it was that I preferred the sound.

When you consider that Denis Brain did all of his playing on a single F horn, and much of that (as I remember) being on a narrow-bore French type, it makes his playing even more miraculous! I remember some programme where someone was talking about Brain's infallibility in both rehearsal and performance - he had a nice anecdote about the ONE time he ever heard Brain make a mistake ... but I've forgotten the anecdote!

Indeed many of his famous recordings were made on his Raoux, a narrow bore instrument with piston valves, but in 1951 the pressure of his reputation for infallibility induced him to transfer to an Alexander five-valve single Bb,* the same model as his uncle Alfred used in Los Angeles. Dennis had the mouthpipe changed to one of smaller bore, to keep something of the light, pure tone he got from the Raoux. The Alexander was severely crushed in the accident that killed him, but has been restored by Paxmans, for sentimental or historical reasons, at more than the cost of a new instrument.

* The fifth valve lowers the pitch by a perfect fourth (it makes the instrument the same length as the open F horn). The fourth valve is for hand stopping; it lowers the pitch of the Bb horn by roughly 3/4 tone, but this makes it just right to combine with the fifth valve to lower the instrument by an augmented fourth, to E. Other combinations give reasonable tuning for Eb and D. Db and C need quite a bit of hand and lip, but at the bottom of the range, which is where you need these lengths, the pitch is easily moved around with the lip. The low B concert would be an even worse fudge, but I can't think of a piece that needs it.

Ha, I thought I coud rely on you to know the history of his horn usage, kenm! I didn't know about the story of the damage to and restoration of his last horn, so thanks for that.

It's no surprise to me that this happens, since as a beginner I do find the B-flat side easier. And my ear is not so developed that I can easily tell the less refined sound in the lower register. That said, I do concentrate on the F side for now; since I am aware of the problem.

Sometimes I use the B-flat side to give me that extra 'push' when practicing higher notes - for example, some days I can hit the C above middle C on the B side, but not quite on the F side; but I can play a scale on the B side up to the C and then bring across the more confident C to the F side more succesfully (if that makes sense).

There's something similar on flute - the low notes are difficult sometimes - especially to play loud, but it is easy to start higher and work down to them; bringing the 'quality' of the high notes to the low ones.

Re Bb/F I was taught (too many years ago) on a single F piston valve.

????The difficulties of playing open notes in the octave above middle C!!!!

Still it paid off, it's given me a long career teaching and playing horn.

??? Playing Mozart Hn concertos on the open horn (putting 1st valve down to make it a hn in Eb) then doing the rest with lips/hand muting.... no valves.....Those were the days!!

Can recall playing page after page of open notes from the "Oscar Franz" tutor
Anybody else used them?

Nowadays I teach my hn pupils to use the F side for 1 octave up from Middle C and I octave down to bottom C(and the pedal notes)
Use the Bb side for the top octave and use the notes from G(above mid C) to top C (6 notes) as a crossover from one side of the hn to the other!!