As some of you know, I've recently taken up piano after a 16 year break. Have pulled myself back up to (I think) around grade 3/4 playing standard in a year (previously grade 5/6). Having done the ABRSM jazz grades I've discovered that's where my interest lies but want to keep up with the classical stuff to keep building on my pianistic skills.

At the advice of several people here had my first jazz piano lesson last week. I really enjoyed it (although it really messed with my mind!), am getting stuck into my practice and can't wait to go back for another...but...ever since I've had that the gremlin of self-doubt sitting on my shoulders, you probably know the kind of stuff 'don't know why you're bothering, you'll never be able to do it...' 'if you were capable of being any good, you'd have done it when you were a teenager...' etc etc

My ambitions are fairly modest (I think). I love playing with other people, so in the long term I'd love to be able to play with an jazz ensemble and/or hold my own at summer schools, jam with amateur musician friends etc. I think I'm probably some way off, but that horrid little gremlin keeps telling me I will never never be able to do it, if I was good enough I'd have carried on as a teenager etc etc

Anyone else get visits from the demons of self-doubt? And how do you purge them...?

Yes, I'm afraid the 'demons of self doubt' are always lurking. Mine was a 50 year break, but I've done what you are wanting to do - play in a music group with friends and get involved with amateur concerts. The forum concerts/playdays can be recommended for meeting like minded people and boosting confidence. Good luck.

Having just about got to the level of playing in a jazz ensemble and on summer schools (and really loving it), from a pretty much standing start as an adult as far as jazz was concerned I'm pretty confident you'll be able to do it. On the jazz course I've just done there were a lot of people who were a lot better than I was - but you know what? I still really enjoyed playing with them, they did a very good impression of enjoying playing with me, and there were one or two occasions when I felt I held my own. There were also a few participants with very limited jazz experience who made astonishing progress through the week.

I know that I'll never be able to play at the level some of the people on the course were playing at - equally I'm fairly sure I've still got the potential to improve quite a bit from the level I'm currently playing at - and I'm loving every minute of the journey.

The Saturday jazz band I play in did a little gig in a park in Eltham recently - Alex was playing keys with us. At the end he asked our bass player "How did you feel it went?" the bassist said "OK, but I didn't play as well as I know I can and as well as I'd like to". Alex's reply was "You never do - as soon as you get to the point where you play as well as you possibly can on a gig it's all over, you might as well give up - there's nowhere left to go"

[quote name='TSax' date='Aug 30 2008, 11:45 PM' post='737638']
[quote name='jinxi' post='737556' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:45 PM']

The Saturday jazz band I play in did a little gig in a park in Eltham recently - Alex was playing keys with us. At the end he asked our bass player "How did you feel it went?" the bassist said "OK, but I didn't play as well as I know I can and as well as I'd like to". Alex's reply was "You never do - as soon as you get to the point where you play as well as you possibly can on a gig it's all over, you might as well give up - there's nowhere left to go"
[/quote]

That made me smile! When I teach writing (which is my trade) I always say to people if you give something to me that you think is perfect then it's probably mediocre. if you give me something saying ' if I had a bit more time I could have done this, this and this' or 'it's okay, but it's not my best work...' you're probably onto something!

I agree that sometimes the enormity of the task ahead seems a bit daunting. If ever I find thoughts of that nature coming into my mind, I try to focus on a few well-worn cliches, which have become cliches because they're so true - like "the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step". And instead of comparing my current ability with how far I've got to go, I focus on comparing it with how far I've come. I've just started learning piano and in terms of the "journey of a thousand miles", I've only travelled a few yards. On my clarinet where I've just got G4, I'm a bit further down the road, and again sometimes it's daunting thinking about how much you've yet to learn, but at the same time, you know that bit by bit you're making measurable progress. Every time you practise, you're that bit closer to achieving your ambition. The main thing is, as TSax has said, is that you enjoy the journey. If someone finds the journey is a chore and a necessary evil in order to get to their destination, then it's likely that they'll never arrive. But from what I remember of your previous posts, you're enjoying the journey, and the more effective practice you do, the sooner you'll arrive (I think that's the theory anyway! ) The self-doubt might be something many if not all of us adult learners have to live with, but the main thing is not to let it spoil your enjoyment of the moment.

skylark

I don't know how old you are Jinxi, but I am 68 and last summer I decided quite suddenly that I wanted to learn to play the flute. (Well, it seemed like a good idea!) I started with a tutor book and 60 years of playing the piano, and immediately hit all the problems that flute beginners presumably have. I couldn't get the first note to play immediately, I couldn't remember the peculiar fingering (compared with the piano), I couldn't breathe properly, I went dizzy after taking too deep a breath, and so on.

But more worryingly was that the little finger of the right hand (which as flautists will know spends a lot of its time just holding down a key) after a minute or two of playing just locked in the bent position. I needed my other hand to unlock it. I don't think I suffer from arthritis, thankfully, but I put this problem down to the age of my bones and guessed that there would be nothing I could do about it. But I just loved the new experience of playing the flute so kept going. I was lucky enough to find a good teacher at the first attempt, and no sooner had I started lessons than I realised that the problem had gone away and ------ I no longer had a good excuse for not making progress.

So I put the maximum effort into learning, and managed a Grade 4 Merit in July this year. Looking back, it is true to say that every new thing I learned was a serious challenge. The first venture into the middle register, learning the sharps and flats, then the upper register, then trills, then scales, then exam pieces, then sight reading on the flute (I am reasonably proficient at this on the piano) these were all big challenges. But I never gave in. I kept telling myself that I knew I would not be able to learn a new musical instrument in a day and that it would need constant hard work - here is another cliché "Practice Makes Perfect". This is the one I use.

I am currently struggling to learn a piece in A Flat major. Yes, it is only four flats and I can play it from sight on the piano, but it is painfully slow on the flute. Whereas I know instinctively what D flat is on the piano, I haven't yet got that instinct on the flute. But do you know what? In the month I have been learning it, I can already play the first section a bit quicker now, so I am determined not to let the "four flat demon" get the better of me.

Keep at it Jinxi, the rewards will be terrific. Just identify your demon problems, practice them until they surrender, and then move on to the next demon!

As I think Katyjay said once, there is no arrival. The journey therefore has to be enjoyed.
If you look at a group of small children with plastic percussion instruments having a whale of a time with someone playing the piano, they don't worry about whether they are in time, or playing at the right point, they just play and enjoy.
You have to do the same, although you will be in time. Just enjoy.
Bev.

I can relate to this.
It helps me when I start to feel useless to remember all the lovely people at forum events who treat me as though I really do know what I'm doing. And most of the time I feel that I really can hold my own with my more musically advanced forum friends.

I think it's truly amazing that you've got back into piano again!

There are many people out there who want to start again but never do, at least you have gone ahead and went for it, that in itself is very admiral!
You should be proud of yourself!

Cheers everyone! Good to know I'm not the only one. Lots of positive advice here though...

I sometimes think that I'm not going to get any further on the piano but then I remind myself how far I've come, that my teacher knows what she's doing and that she wouldn't keep my playing pieces at this level if she didn't think I could do it and that my stand partner in band did not start playing clarinet until she was 4 years older than I am now. (I'm 34) Now at 60 she plays equally as well as I used to (having learned from being 9) and currently she plays the pieces better than I do in band - whether this is familiarity with the pieces or just ability I'm not sure but it is reasuring to think that when I'm 60 I might be able to play the piano equally well.

One Peanuts cartoon strip had Lucy in a booth with the "The Psychiatrist is IN" label.

Charlie Brown in baseball cap and glove lies down on her couch:

CB: "Do you think it's right of me to have these little self-doubts sometimes?."

Lucy: "Absolutely not Charlie Brown - You should be having GREAT BIG self doubts, ALL the time!"

This is very reassuring!!

This I can identify with, having:

1. Been persuaded not to try for music college/conservatoire at 17/18, and
2. Taken some long breaks from studying piano seriously (though never very long without playing at all)
3. Re-organized my whole life around getting good at playing piano some 18 months ago

I used to get exactly the same thoughts.

Well, if you work hard at it, and you truly love the music, and the practicing, for its own sake, (and not for the adulation you might get from an audience after a good performance) then in another year's time the doubts will be gone. You will look back on how much you have learned, and how much more you have improved, and you will be enjoying the journey so much that the fact of embarking on it 10, 20, or 30 years later than ideal will not matter at all.

If you want to read something inspiring to chase the gremlins away even faster I recommend

Mastering the Art of Performance by Stewart Gordon