Hi,

I found a book by Atarah Ben-Tovim about choosing the right instrument for your child. It was initially published in 1985 and seems very well researched - however, I can't help but feel it is either stereotyping or rather clumsily written.

Does anyone have any experience of this book's principals? Do children thrive on instruments that reflect their vocal and behavioural characteristics?

Are the orchestral stereotypes true, that trumpeters need to expend excess energy and want to dominate people, that percussionists can't sit still, that French horn players sit in their bedrooms alone cradling their expensive instruments in wistful melancholy?

My favourite quote from the book is 'many slightly overweight children who do not have a lot of spare energy are very happy on the tuba'!

I found the book truly awful, I have to say. Full of sweeping generalisations, thinly veiled as proven research.

Let the child pick an instrument he or she loves the sound of.

I agree, it is pretty dreadful. I also seem to remember there's some colossal gender-stereotyping going on - boys play brass instruments, girls play flute and violin.

It would be a nice idea, if it worked, but I'm not sure how you could ever do it scientifically.

My son's cornet teacher claims to be able to identify which brass instrument someone should play based on the rate at which the child vibrates their lips, at least I think it is that. Jamie wanted a trombone and she vetoed it using this criteria.

Beth loves playing both the flute and the sax and many flute players also play the sax. I know the fingering is the same but to me they sound completely different and the way they feel to play is completely different so I wouldn't think the argument about personality and so on is relevant.
Dora

I know Atarah quite well. She has a super lively, colourful personality and has done an enormous amount for musical education..

She has met most of my pupils and has often hit the nail on the head right away as far as assessing their capabilities and their attitudes towards music. is concerned.

She gave me a copy of her book a long time ago. I don’t agree with everything in it but I I think the book reflects her particular experiences.

As our ABRSM representative she works extremely hard and has done an enormous amount for musical education in this part of France and without her support, understanding and generosity I wouldn’t have had the success with my pupils that I have had.

No reflection on Atarah (who has always seemed great) but the reported judgements in this book seem a bit odd.

Seems to me that it can often be difficult for someone who has good intuitions about individuals to translate these into general rules (e.g. Freud)

nick

I personally emailed Atarah about the content of her book, stating that her generalisations and stereotyping would actually be of no help whatsoever to non-musical parent with a child interested in playing an instrument.

The email stated some blinding errors in her text too and some of the awful postural stances of the children in some of the pictures. Those of you who have the book may wish to look at the girl sat on the chair 'playing' the cello - one foot is tucked back under the chair, she isn't even sat straight and her elbows are clamped to her side. Similarly, the violinist who is supposed to have a perfect position with the violin has actually got the instrument jutting out from under the middle of her chin.

If you are going to put photos of someone playing a musical instrument in a book, then at least make sure they really do reflect the correct posture and position the musician should adopt.

Similarly, there are errors in the actual content of the text. Ror example, Atarah states that the harp is played with the thumb and four fingers of each hand. Wrong, the harp is played with the thumb and the first three fingers on each hand, the little finger is redundant on the harp.

If any research was done for this book, then it was poor at the very least. When Atarah replied to me she was away on tour and said that she would review what I'd said and reply to me in detail when she returned home. Her comment was that the book was not intended to be read by musicians. What? that makes no sense at all. Musicians are exactly the sort of people who should review these books, preferably before they are launched onto an unsuspecting public.

Her response to me was received about a year ago and I've heard nothing since. Perhaps there is a little bit of egg on a few faces?

Not seen the book but I'd agree with this.
If someone asks which instrument their child should play my first answer would be 'The one they want to play'.

yes, I think so too.

Similar topic in the news in this morning ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7595515.stm

I took part in one of her Atarah's Band school concerts in the early 1970s (I was playing a shoe box with elastic bands) and it was her who inspired me to take up the flute. Do thank her for me. The event was televised - she might even have a copy!

As to her book, well it was written years ago.

For some reason I doubt the book says that any boy weighing over x kg should be forced to play the tuba, or all girls should be forced to play the violin/flute. Perhaps cooling the righteous indignation would be good idea.

I have no doubt that generalisations exist in the book, but for none musical parents it isn't a huge help if you were to go through every instrument and say they are just as likely to want to play it as every other instrument in the book, and it is rather difficult to stretch "let them play what they most like the sound of" to a sufficient number of pages for a book.

Does the book set itself up as a tutor for every instrument contained therein? For some reason I doubt it. The book is also aimed at parents, it's not as if the child is told to exactly replicate the posture in it. And for some reason I doubt Atarah personally selected the photos for inclusion in the book, chances are a well meaning editor added them in to break up the text and they weren't a professional string player and as a result didn't realise they were of children exhibiting bad posture.

It could be you who is wrong actually, from wikipedia, "The first four fingers of each hand are used to pluck the strings; the little fingers are too short and cannot reach the correct position without distorting the position of the other fingers, although on some folk harps with light tension, closely spaced strings, they may occasionally be used." It's quite possible she was thinking of folk harps when writing it, or was including it in passing.

Don't think I'd have bothered replying to you at all . If you have a problem with the content of the book it would make far more sense to complain to the publisher rather than harrying one of the authors about it. From the reviews on Amazon other people seem to have found it useful, in fact I think you have given the only negative review so far.

It might not appear useful to you, but for a parent with next to no musical knowledge it helps to know that often more girls play the flute or boys tend to like Brass more than girls. You might have a dozen exceptions to every bit of advice given in the book, just as Atarah would almost certainly be able to point to dozens of male flautists who have done incredibly well on the instrument. But the fact is for every example you can give which might disprove the advice they give there are probably a few dozen who would fit the profile perfectly.

SNHS - I agree with some of what you've said, but I postulate that if the advice 'let the child play the instrument they love the sound of' would be difficult to stretch to a book, then perhaps there isn't really a need for a book to be written on the subject - an advice leaflet would do just as well, perhaps, with some ideas on listening strategies.

I'm not certain that sweeping generalisations are any better than trying to stretch one sentence into a book.

Furthermore, whilst AmandaL may come across as indignant and I agree that the publisher is the best person to complain to - a response was promised by the author and never given. I'd get cross too if someone did that to me - do what you said you'd do and do it when you said you'd do it. Perhaps the original response of atarah should have been 'you need to take this up with my publisher', which would have been fair enough (or in fact no response, which would also have been fair enough as you say).

Certainly, a writer has no moral obligation to respond to ranty messages from strangers, but once communication has willingly been entered into and a promise to retort made, then I do feel a certain moral obligation to uphold ones promise exists.

Just trying to balance what came across as an equally indignant message from you, that's all.

To an extent you have a point. However what if as a parent you had a 5 year old who loves the sound of a Tuba but has no hope of holding one to play it? Or if you have a child who loves the sound of the double bass but doesn't have long enough arms to finger the notes? It's all very well for someone who is a professional musician, or even someone with a basic awareness of music from playing in school orchestras etc, to say 'let the child play what they love the sound of', but when it comes down to a parent with little/no musical background going into a shop having a dozen or more of the common orchestral instruments, the variants on them, folk instruments, etc not to mention brands, teachers and various strings of letters after their name it is daunting. It helps if they have some idea of what to look for, or what their child might like most rather than going into a music shop with no idea of what they want and possibly spending hundreds of pounds buying an instrument on a whim which 6 months later the child no longer likes.

It depends what you mean by sweeping generalisations. If it is a fact that more girls play the flute than boys, for example. Would you class that as a generalisation? Would you class saying that having large lips might make a child more suited to a certain instrument then another as a generalisation? At the end of the day it might be, but if it can cut down an orchestra of possible instruments to the four or five most likely to suit the child then it makes sense to do so. And if they don't like the sound/feel of those then they can always go through other instruments in the book. It is the sensible thing to do after all, deductive reasoning, and when they've eliminated the other possibles if they end up playing the instrument least 'suitable' for them then fine.

That may be true. But isn't it also the case that a tour is a fairly busy time for a musician? Responding to an angry email isn't exactly going to be at the forefront of your mind, and whose to say that however many days after they first opened the email, read the first few lines and fired off a quick response they haven't forgotten about it completely? I know I've done it before and I'm guessing I don't get anything like as many emails. There are perfectly reasonable explanations as to why she may not have responded ranging from getting locked out of her email account to deleting the initial email exchange by accident and having no way to reestablish contact.

The sensible response would have been to email her again asking if she had got round to re reading it rather than railing against it on a public forum.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, SNHS.

Allan

Then they have to wait until they are big enough or start on a related instrument first if there is no smaller version of the instrument.
I wouldn't particularly think of starting a 5 year old with instrumental lessons anyway but the same goes for whatever age if it's a physical size thing. When I was at school it appeared to be normal for orchestral instrument lessons not to be offered before secondary school anyway. If there is a really strong want to play a particular instrument then it will stand the test of time. I know... I've done the waiting as a child.
Meanwhile another instrument sometimes fills the gap until you can have what you want (did that too).

There might be more girls playing the flute than boys, but only because they see other girls playing the flute so they tend to copy them. There is nothing *inherent* about the flute that makes is more suited to either gender. Similarly with brass. Therefore to perpetuate that gender bias through photos etc in kids' books is to implicitly discourage a boy from playing the flute - even though it might be his favourite instrument, and he might be very suited to it - or a girl from playing the trumpet.

It's not that quite simplistic of course - parents and peers have a lot to do with it, but if a book like Ben-Tovim's showed boy flautists and girl trumpeters, then it would do something to counterbalance those who are telling the boy that the flute is a 'girlie' instrument.

That's true, but there is nothing wrong in a book acknowledging the fact that more girls play a certain instrument and more boys play a certain instrument. I have heard people say that girls prefer flutes partly because of the tone, but also because of aesthetics and ease of transport, equally boys might prefer the way a trumpet looks or sounds. Just think about the movies and TV programmes they watch, chances are most of the boys will prefer watching shows in which there are at least some militaristic elements, drums and brass instruments are often prominent. Meanwhile in movies, or even in music, generally you'll often hear the flute used for themes associated with love, flowers, dancing etc.

I really don't see the gender bias as a major problem though. As a male flute player I don't exactly lack examples of famous male flute players, and female trumpet players have people like Alison Balsom just as female drummers will have similar exemplars etc.

For some reason I'm fairly certain that if the book did have those kind of images someone somewhere would criticise it as not being a true reflection of the instrument average player.

The fact is if a child of whatever gender/height/weight/complexion/lip shape/size or whatever else already has a clear idea of what instrument they want to play their parents wouldn't need a book like this in the first place. If, however, they have an interest in playing music but no idea what instrument it is useful to be able to determine the instruments they may be most likely to enjoy playing.

Of course there are masses of women/girls playing in brass bands.

There's probably no argument there. I think the original post was questioning whether the advice in this particular book actually had any merit in assisting parents choose a suitable instrument.