I went to meet a seven year old girl who I will start teaching from next week. I spent about 30 mins with her, clapping a few rhythms talking about where to find C's etc and she was absolutely fine with this and I think she will progress quite quickly. Mum knew a bit on the piano and had already begun teaching her bits and bobs which she obviously retained and was confident about what she already knew.

However, this girl was loud, rude, and at times bounced off the walls! She frequently shouted at her mum when she wanted things, interrupting her mum screaming "I want this or I want that!" She frequently banged on the piano loudly with hands and arms, even when she was told to stop. Mum had no control whatsoever over her child. This child was straight off supernanny!

What on earth do I do?!

This is going to very difficult for you, especially as you're a young and fairly inexperienced teacher.
You have to make it clear straight away that you won't tolerate this sort of behaviour and ideally you need mum to back you up, although this doesn't sound likely. Even the most kindhearted, easygoing teachers amongst us know that you have to start off with some expectations of behaviour and respect and this needs to be established before you go any further - if you do decide to.
Good luck and keep us informed!

Yes, quite! The little girl is old enough to be told how you expect her to behave. I would sit her down at the start of her next lesson and explain to her that she should not shout, hit your piano or behave in a cheeky way to you. Tell her how she has to behave and praise her when she does so, however small. Children love praise and the supernannny trick of winning stickers for good behaviour is a useful one to try. She will probably behave better with Mum out of the way. Can the mother sit in another room or wait in her car for her at the next lesson perhaps? I would phone Mum before the next lesson and tell her that she will make an excellent student but has to behave herself. Ask if she would be happy to leave her alone with you during the next lesson. I suspect that things will improve greatly without her mother to be her audience.

Absolutely right, but the trouble is that we've all heard this far too often.

Perhaps it's time for the majority to fight back.

Slam your arm down on the 'closed' piano and scream at the top of your voice for them to GET OUT!

Maybe not the best solution long term, but would sure make me feel better!

Steve

Personally i would not teach a child like that, as a private tutor maybe i'm a bit picky but if i don't get a basic level of manners & reasonable behaviour from a child i won't teach them. I can be quite flexible but you have to draw the line somewhere.

It sounds as though the OP is going to the child's house, so abuse of the teacher's piano is not an issue. However, this child definitely needs to learn some respect for teacher/instrument/parent etc. I think Mum needs to be out of the way in order for you to gain control. You may find that the child behaves OK when she is alone with you (kids often save their worst behaviour for parents..). It probably is worth a little chat with Mum before the next lesson so that you can agree a 'game-plan' beforehand.

I wouldn't say anything to her about behaviour unless and until she does something unacceptable eg bangs the piano, at which point you calmly point out that this is not acceptable and warn her that x will happen if she does it again. If she does it again, carry out your threat. In the case of banging, perhaps best to close the lid, move away from the piano and do some other activity. If the child has a lot of excess energy and is fidgety, she may find it really hard to sit quietly at the piano for more than a few minutes and a variety of activities will help to keep her interested and busy, so she is less likely to play up.

Perhaps consider giving a shorter lesson initially - 30 minutes is a long time with a tricky 7 year old. You can cover quite a lot of ground in 20 minutes - eg 4 lots of 5 minutes on different activities. How about spending a bit of time opening up the piano and looking inside - kids love this and she might just treat the piano a bit more carefully when she realises how complicated it is.

Good luck. She sounds like an intelligent child with a weak parent who has failed to set any effective boundaries. Children, like animals, quickly work out who is boss and behave accordingly - just make sure she is in no doubt of your position!!

To be completely honest - I probably wouldn't go back

That's just me though! Having mum out of the room and being very firm might help. Personally I just can't stand that kind of behaviour, and whether I though it was the child's fault or not wouldn't come into it

I would explain why I wasn't coming back though.

You're all so mean!

I bet the poor kid was just TIRED and needed to EXPRESS her FEELINGS

There's no tongue in that smilie. Is it in your cheek?

I think that a few posts have been sympathetic but all kids need to know what is allowed and what isn't.

.

Heavens! I hope that the days when music teachers behaved like that are well gone. I hope that you posted as a joke but there will be people here who remember the effect that bullying and violent teachers had upon them.
Giving guidelines before a lesson helps the child to know how and how not to behave during lessons. They can let off steam at other times if they want to. At church once we had a lovely "service" in the sunday school where the younger members were told how they should conduct themselves in the meeting house and how they should not. Then they were allowed to break all the rules for the first five minutes and they did! Then they were asked to behave as one should and at the end we shared our thoughts. It was a useful lesson for all to learn and they were very well behaved at the next meeting.
Music lessons should be fun and we have the job of making them so. If this means giving the pupil a lesson in manners from time to time then that is how it will be, at least when I teach. If students are allowed to mess about and to misbehave they will learn little. The better behaved they are the more they will concentrate and the more they will achieve. Nothing succeeds like success.

How about expressing your concerns to the mother re the child's behaviour, and offer to teach her on a trial basis to see if she will buckle down and start to behave in an acceptable manner? Then, if there is no improvement, you are not committed.

I agree with those who have said that first of all you must get mother out of the way. Secondly you must make quite sure the child knows what standard of behaviour you expect, what is acceptable and what isn't. Then comes the hard part. You must ensure that that the rules are respected. Often a sharp change in the voice is enough. But a lot will depend on how much authority you are actually allowed to have over the pupil if you are teaching in her house. That is one of the reasons why I will not teach in my pupils' homes. It is much more difficult to impose your own rules. If mother doesn't mind the child banging on the piano, that child won't understand why you do. Out of the home environment it is much easier.

The sticker idea is a good one but I would opt for two kinds of stickers - one for good behaviour and one for bad. You can work out some sort of system - say three good stickers in a row and she gets a reward. But if there is a bad sticker she has to start again and get three good ones before the reward. I don't know what to suggest for a reward. A sweet is the obvious thing though I have my reservations about giving sweets and some parents do too. it(s only a idea and all ideas need to be adapted to the child in question.

If after a while there is no improvemernt I would explain to the mother that her daughter is not ready for piano lessons and will not be ready until she has matured enough to behave correctly.

If the child has a real behavioural disorder mother will meet the problem elsewhere and eventually get a referral to the medical profession. If it is sheer cussedness on the part of the child and an opting out on the part of the parent there isn't really much you can do.

I use stickers with little ones but only for things done well and never for anything bad. I find that winning a sticker is reward enough. Some of them are super and they are allowed to choose their own. I am not happy with the idea of giving then for bad behaviour.

Some parents think that allowing children to behave just as they please is in the best interest of the child. This in opinion is just not the case, they allow behaviour that people generally find unacceptable. They do the child no favours in the long term and cause confusion when the child is put in a situation where a certain standard of conduct is expected. Parents who have no boundaries drive me mad.

Tal;k to the Mother about the child's conduct and explain any concerns. Make it clear right at the start of the lesson what you expect from the child. Find something musically the child enhjoys, might be improvising on some level or hearing you play something flashy and us ethis as a reward.

The best way is not to allow any unacceptable behaviour to start. As others have said a trial might be the best option. You are there as a Piano Teacher after all and not a behavioural specialist.

Absolutely, notmusimum!

The number of parents who believe that the child must be allowed to express themselves their own way and never be admonished, no matter how bad the behaviour, is astonishing. They turn out little monsters who start school at 5 having never heard the word "no."

Children need discipline and a firm idea of where the boundaries are. If the mother is prepared to back you up on this, you have a chance, but if not, then I'd not go near the place.

Good luck!

Burl

i find being firm from the very first lesson. i teach lots of little angels in lower schools who like to smash their hands down on the keys, prop their elbows on it, talk constantly. i found that by turning the keyboard off or closing the piano lid, turning their chair round so i can look them in the eye and then discuss ground rules. when they are broken i mutter "... disappointing Harry, very disappointing..." accompanied by a Paddington stare. the lesson doesnt continue till the behaviour improves.

Can this child visit you at home? do you only travel out?

You have my sympathy. This sounds very similar to pupils at the care school I work at for Autistic children. Obviously we know why they behave like that, but it is still a handful to deal with! She sounds like either a spoiled child or someone with behavioural problems. And I bet no-one chastising the child or her parent considered there may be something like Aspergers, ADHD or whatever, for which tiredness is fatal. Even if she is just a bad mannered/poorly raised child as some posters are insinuating, teachers can make a big difference. I would be as supportive as possible but equally firm, however subtle.

I wouldn't mention the child's behaviour at all to the Mother as it may just be symptomatic of their relationship, and not how the child behaves in school etc.
I think the debate of raising children is far too wide a suject to be able to debate in black and white. So, as her teacher, I wouldn't concern yourself with how she treats her mother. Keep a professional line. As O.Ps have written, explain to the Mother that lessons should take place without her presence if that is acceptable for her. I would never give a negative sticker as this can dent a child's confidence and at the end of the day, she is still a child. You are there to teach piano so good 'behaviour' stickers/rewards, in my opinion, are out too. However, if you choose to reward good musical progress then this can have a positive impact on a child's developement.
Unless and until this pupil does 'act up' for you I wouldn't lay down any type of gound rule. On the first instance of inappropriate behaviour I would explain what you find unacceptable and how you expect her to behave in future. I would also say that next time you shall inform the Mother. Work on a three strike rule. Second time, tell the Mother and explain if it happens again you shall have no option but to terminate the lessons. With incident three you leave and never go back.
At the end of the day you are a music teacher not a foster parent or a social worker

Nice idea

*adopts immediately*

However, I also agree with not making the behaviour an issue until/ if she plays you up. Making your expectaions of each other clear at the beginning will be helpful too. My 5 year old had to sign a home-school agreement which laid out in simple terms what was expected each of parents, teacher and pupils. Could you do something like this, if only verbally. e.g. I will work hard to teach you piano and do the things with you that will help you get better, I will talk to you in a polite manner and show you respect, in return I expect you to try your best in lessons, do your parctice, look after the piano and, be polite when talking to me. You could also include mum with something like I will encourage my daughter to put in her practice, remind her to look after the piano and be polite to her teacher.
I also have no problem with stickers - they can be given to reward hard work or effort (and so indirectly good behaviour) even if the musical progress isn't there yet. BUT I would never give a sticker for bad behaviour I think that lack of reward is enough.

Good Luck with this pupil. I was taught in my training as a teacher that the best teacher is firm yet fair and that pupils respond best if they know what the expectations are and where the boundaries are.

Take that......and that.....and that.....!

Thanks for all your replies, I was at a bit of a loss as to what to do!

I've worked with children with special needs for many years, and in my opinion the young girl in question does not have an attention deficit of any sort (although the younger brother literally did bounce off the walls!). I would definitely be very sensitive if I thought there was a problem. The only "bad" behaviour I witnessed was extremely loud shouting, frequent interruptions (with loud shouting), banging on the piano (oh by the way, I'm teaching at their house, if it was my piano, I would have said something straight away!), and just blatant rudeness.

I actually teach in a church, but to be quite frank I do not want this girl giving me a bad name at the church!

We'll see how it goes.....the dreaded lesson is on thursday.....this should be rather interesting.....anyone want to place bets on how long I'll last before a) I walk out, b) I scream at the child or c) I get arrested for assault.......(only joking lol, i love kids really )

I think that you and she will get on well together and you'll be boasting about her excellent progress very soon. Do let us know how the next lesson goes.

Take a small cattle prod - and if you don't need to use it, pretend it's a conductor's baton.

I'm sure once you lay down the law, you'll be fine - good luck, and keep us posted (if you don't get arrested)

Burl

I realise that some of these posts are meant in a light way but I find jokes about violence to pupils, especially young ones disturbing. In the past it was considered quite the norm for piano teachers to rap pupils across the knuckles with rulers , dig them in the ribs, yell at them and bully them in other ways. I hope that these practices have died out by now. I write as one who was bullied verbally by more than one teacher and the effects are long lasting.

I am sorry you are bothered by them, I didn't mean to upset you or anyone.

I agree that bullying of any kind is completely wrong.

I think a sense of humour can lighten many a touchy subject. It can also highlight the ridiculous nature of a scenario in which we find ourselves - such as trying to teach music to a child that's behaving like an uncivilised animal. If it amuses us to think in terms of cattle prods, it is because of the incongruity of a cattle prod and a darling little child. It's not because we think violence towards children is amusing per se.

Since violence is not an option for us teachers we need to come up with some other way of refusing to tolerate unacceptable behaviour. I see my job as teaching an optional subject which requires cooperation. I find it equally difficult when a sulky child who's learning for mummy's sake refuses to speak to me - once I know it isn't shyness, obviously. What about, "Listen, Sunshine, there is absolutely no point in my being in this room with you while you behave like that. Your mother is wasting her money. If you don't want to be here, then keep this up and I'll put an end to the lessons and we'll both be happy. If you do want to be here, then wise up. I'm off to the loo/kitchen/whatever. Let me know when I come back what you've decided. If you can't decide then I decide for you. This is not fun for either of us."

And that wouldn't count as verbal bullying? Sorry, but I prefer a different approach. Most kids love music and there has to be some activity that they will love and have fun doing. Yesterday I had a little pupil who was having problems with rhythms playing with a selection of glove puppets to help her to understand the difference between crotchets and quavers. I gave her a pile of small cards with either one crotchet or a pair of quavers drawn on and she had to clap the puppet's name and then match it to the correct cards. Panda bear became a pair of quavers followed by a crotchet for example. She loved it and was able to label all eight correctly. Then she went back to the piano and was able to play the bars that she had had a problem with before with ease. Most pupils come along because the parents want them to initially. It is our job to make lessons and learning fun. If the lessons are not then perhaps we should look at our own teaching methods rather than blaming the child for not being interested? Sorry Dulciana but I would never address any pupil like that.
Music lessons can be so much more than sitting a kid at the piano and getting them to play little tunes for half an hour. Walking about bashing a tambourine to learn about counting is fun for almost any child. Counting aloud isn't always! I include singing in many lessons too. Lots of short activities keep youngsters interested and alert. Music really should be fun and not something to dread.

Having been in a situation with a stubborn child who refused to speak I can tell you that it drives you mad. Sometimes all the sympathy in the world and coaxing doesn't do any good. Young children can be very determind. Emsoboe was a nightmare until she was about 3 1/2. I'm afraid the turning point came when I employed a tactic that I wouldn't have otherwise dreamed of doing. Without it I probably wouldn't have had the teenager I have today and she would have missed out on so much.

I don't like bullying or violence but as a parent on occassion you have to be prepared to draw a line in the sand for everyones sake. When parents aren't able to do this it becomes a problem for someone else.

On a slightly different tack at the moment I'm having a terrible time at work . The boss has had a heart bypass. The guys are playing up in the most unacceptable ways. The reason they have never had any work boundaries and don't understand when they are over stepping the mark. If there had been acceptable behavior in place I wouldn't be in the situation I'm now in.

It's really important to be absoloutly clear what is acceptable and it will take more than one approach to be successful. I'd always agree with softly softly first.

behaving like an uncivilised animal

excuse me but I don't generally regard animals as uncivilised. I find it inappropriate when badly behaved humans are likened to animals.

ahh mate i feel sorry for ya, i hate kids like that, come in screaming and being rude, last time i had a kid like that i said to the mother while i knew the kid was listening, "if your kid is going to behave like this in the future, please find someone else" after that the kid just shushed and the mother kept giving him the evil eye lol. in the end he was a pretty good kid and i taught him till i moved.

Which goes to show that we shouldn't 'write them off', because with a bit of perseverance and patience (and some firm ground rules) most pupils will behave as we want them to. Mind you, I've never experienced a really badly behaved pupil, so maybe I'm just lucky.

I've had one who didn't lsten too well and used to bang on the piano but as it was a 5 year old on a trial period it didn't last.
I just told the parents that she didn't seem to be ready for formal lessons yet and left it open for them to contact me when she was 7 if she still had an interest.

Isn't that a bit harsh? "hate" ??? This is only a little child we are talking about!!

It is VERY important not distinguish between the behaviour and the child and separate the 2. I.e. we will not accept the behaviour but we do not dislike the child. You can say to a child then that "I do not like that behaviour" or "I will not allow you to hit the piano" etc but you are not saying "I do not like YOU when you do that" or "You are a naughty, rude etc child." These latter statements can destroy a child's self-esteem and have a dangerous way of becoming self-fulfilling prophecy.

No-one is saying that teaching children is easy but quite honestly I'm a little upset by the tack this thread has taken. I'm ok with asking for help and support to deal with difficult children that can only help all concerned but some of the posts seem to be "attacking" the child and I don't like that at all! (Attacking may be a bit strong but you get the idea.)

Private teaching gives you the choice to accept a child or not but if you do you must not brutalise the child on behaviour observed between parent and child. You can only act on what happens with you directly. To repeat my previous post, make your expectations of each other clear and stick to them like glue! Remind the child of these if they overstep the mark. You'll probably find the child respects your consistency and works well with you. If however they are not used to boundaries or being told that certain behaviours will not be accepted there's bound to be some teething problems while the child tests you. But remaining consistent will soon get the point accross.

I agree with what you say here petrat and with the idea that we have a responsibility to make music enjoyable. There is nothing like a lesson in which varied activities lead to an enjoyable time and eventually to progress - which in turn gives the pupil a sense of achievement and a desire to go further.

But I do believe that bad behaviour should be sanctioned and I don't agree that a lack of reward is always enough. In most cases it will be, but forty years in the classroom have taught me not to believe 100% in angelism.

I am afraid a large number of the human race have simply abdicated as far as educationg their children is concerned. Schools and private teachers are, in many cases reaping the doubtful rewards of this sorry fact. I don't particularly like to don my GOW hat too often but certain experiences in class at the beginning of this school year have been, to say the least, disappointing.

I was talking to the mother of two of my pupils last week. She is an experienced teacher and her own children are nicely brought up. She told me that she didn't know how she was going to last the remaining
years until her retirement. The under elevens in her school were smoking in the toilets and had tagged the walls with spray paint. Some of the parents had found this amusing.

I think we need to teach some parents and some children when to stop. And I think it's a great shame for those parents and those children who do behave well and whose education is blighted by others.

I'm sorry, but I really do hate ill disciplined, spoiled and poorly behaved children, and I'm not afraid to say it. There's too much of this laissez faire parenting, "let the child decide what is right" attitude. If a child is constatntly being naughty, they are a naughty child. If they are constantly being rude, they are a rude child. Why can't people call a spade a spade? If a child is exhibiting bad behaviour, no matter what the reason for it, how can you separate that behaviour from the child? It wasn't someone else being badly behaved, was it?

I suppose if I walked through a door, and let it slam in your face, instead of holding it open for you, you would be taken aback at how rude I was. You wouldn't apply these ridiculous ideas and say "that was a very rude thing you just did" and separate my behaviour from myself, would you. And before you cry out "oh, but they are only a child!" remember that most people who support these theories of child rearing would hold that you should have an egalitarian approach, so children should be treated in the same way as adults.

Quite where this stops, I don't know - do they want children to drive cars, and at what age should they start? And what about marriage, starting a family etc? Surely it's ageist to impose restrictions on people getting married just because they are 8 years old.... Mind you, in some countries....

Back to reality - I have a good childhood friend who has 2 kids, and fully supports the Laissez Faire theory of parenting. She never makes them do what they should, and never punishes them or tells them off. They get up when they feel like it, they are always late for school, they go to sleep later than I do (often after 11) and eat whatever they want. They hit her if she doesn't put food in front of them when they demand it, and are generally quite revoltingly badly behaved. The older child, 8 can't read a sentence and can barely write his name. The younger one runs the entire household with tantrums and demands. This person is no lowlife or disdvantaged inner city dweller, oh no - they are an Oxford graduate with a first class degree, and a high powered job. However, the behaviour of naughty children can be altered with firm boundaries and guidelines. You don't have to hit them (or use cattle prods). The best method is offering rewards for good behaviour - often something they would have got anyway, and ignoring bad behaviour. If they don't say please, they don't get it, and if they don't say thank you, it's taken away again. They leave their strict but kind grandparents after a week of discipline as changed children - quite pleasant company, in fact. Never hit, just firmly guided to good behaviour. Unfortunately, as soon as they return home, the old habits come back soon enough.

You also have to bear in mind that there really are little horrors out there that are simply nasty pieces of work, and no amount of psychology or trendy theories will ever work out why - they are just bad to the bone, and nothing will ever change that. An excellently parented family I know has 2 lovely children, and one awful one. He'll either not make old bones, or end up behind bars. Very sad. They have tried everything, and there's nothing to be done. Every now and then you come across one that's not been wired up properly, the appropriate way of caring for and helping them has not yet been discovered, and that's just the way of the world.

Burl

I strongly disagree with this. Certainly some children have certain personality traits but "evil" or "bad to the bone" are not personality traits! Your whole post supports parents imposing restrictions on children's behaviour, and implies that children behave the way that they were raised to behave - but if children are naturally angelic, or naturally bad, then punishments and restrictions wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference! Perhaps (shocking though it may seem ) one method does not work for every child! Perhaps certain children need different treatment in order to fully bring out their potential!

I absolutely agree that children need to be taught right from wrong, and I agree that parents need to parent their children, impose punishments (within reason) for bad behaviour, and rewards for good behaviour. Strictly imposing the same restrictions and rewards on every child though, is not going to produce the same results. That doesn't mean that the child is unteachable, just that there needs to be a new method of teaching.

I'm frankly shocked that this antiquated notion of natural evil is still believed in this day and age.

To the original poster, I agree that this sort of behaviour should not be tolerated - but has the child treated you in this way or just his parents, in front of you? It could be that he's simply rather excitable and is trying to show off to you by showing how important he is, that he can treat his mother in such a way... If it's unusual behaviour, she may not know how to respond, or perhaps waited until there was no longer a stranger around to discipline her child.

How did we end up here? This thread started with a little girl of seven years old who had been enrolled for her first music lesson and who wasn't behaving as the teacher wanted (yet) to dismissing some kids as being bad and wired up wrongly!
No one is suggesting that all children are angels ; we all know that they can be badly behaved at times, as can most adults, but to call some kids horrors and nasty pieces of work is one of the most unkind things that I have ever read on this Forum. I wonder if some of you should be allowed near children if that is your attitude. Children learn by example. If they are shown kindness and love they will give those qualities back at some time in their lives. It may not happen straight away but it will eventually.
This is my final post in this thread. I would imagine that if it continues in a similar vein it will be locked soon enough anyway.

Why would this thread be locked? Surely a discussion forum exists so that people can discuss things - it is not an "agreement" forum, after all. We are all entitled to our opinions - posting on here means you want other comments - but have you seen any of the following?

- Stay safe - protect your privacy and respect the privacy of others
- No abusive, offensive or aggressive postings
- No insults or personal attacks
- No foul language
- No trolling
- No inappropriate or illegal material
- No advertising (including "For Sale" or "Wanted" adverts)
- No crossposting
- No forum spamming
- No defamatory comments
- Avoid using jargon, abbreviations or "text talk"

Not all children learn by example, some have the nicest, kindest parents, go to the best schools, and still turn out badly. The bad ones that can't be helped are a miniscule proportion, maybe one in 10,000, and I would agree that a lot of childrens' behavioural problems can be resolved with kind, careful teaching, but most teachers have come a cross a "bad 'un" that nobody seems to be able to help. I'm not sayng that most badly behaved children are evil, totally the opposite - most can be helped and turned round, but you can't deny that evil does exist in the world, just take a look around you!

Unfortunately, the bad ones tend to lead other, less resistant children astray. One such child ruined my eldest son's primary class - he was very careful never to get caught doing anything himself, but had a team of stooges to do his dirty work (and get caught) for him. In the end, we had to move my son to another school. The parents of this child have 2 others, who are lovely, if a little boisterous. They are totally at a loss as to what to do with their other son. He has had the same examples set him, the same opportunities, the same schooling, been shown the same kindnesses, but has NOT turned out the same.

So, unkind or not, I still hold that SOME, and it's not many, but just some few children, as are some adults, are horrors and nasty pieces of work. Unfortunately, we don't live in a Utopia, where just being nice to unpleasant people will change them.

Burl

I am going to take this back to where we started.

Twice in recent years I have had two appallingly behaved pupils. One at home and the other at school, both aged about 6, The one in school does have a form of autism. I shall call them pupil 1 and pupil 2.By the way this story has a happy ending!

Pupil 1 comes from a good family and both parents are professionals in highly respected professions. The mother sat in for the first few lessons and on about the 3rd lesson I mentioned that the little boys hand had moved and he was no longer playing with his thumb on middle C. It was said ever so kindly. World war 3 broke out. There was sobbing, kicking the piano and shouting at me. " I was not wrong, how dare you say so, my thumb was on middle C". I was understandably rather taken aback. I knew the Mum a bit as we all live in the village. She said to me " Sorry, but we don't believe in negative with the children."
This was a musical child with a musical Mum. How can you teach if you don't point out there has been a wrong note played? This was about 3 years ago. It got much worse from there. After a term Mum suggested she stay away. It helped a bit. Then after many incidents and by then on Bastien Level 2, so playing reasonable tunes, a terrible thing happened!- I made the mistake of attempting to correct a wrong rhythm. I saw the lip drop and the tears well up. Then the piano lid was slammed down- my piano as I teach at home, and the piano kicked. The music was hurled at me. He then turned with the most venomous look on his face and said " How dare you talk to me when I am playing? I did not play the rhythm wrong- I did what you just said. If you ever interrupt me again I will not play".
I would point out that one of my teaching principles is that I always hear a piece all the way through before saying anything. They then start it for a second time which is when I stop and start to work on it with them.

I waited a few minutes then kindly explained that "talking" to him and correcting things was why he was coming to me and that he would not learn if we did not correct things. I opened the piano and asked him to play a different piece, which I thought might diffuse the situation. He sat with arms folded and refused. Just stared ahead. Eventually his Mum came for him. I didn't say anything then but phoned her later. She was very sorry and embarrassed about it. However she asked to keep perservering. The following week we started a sticker chart for good behaviour which he stuck in his notebook. The basic idea that he was allowed one little outburst per lesson. After that if he did not behave nicely and do as I asked he would not get the sticker. If his sticker was full at the end of term he got a book token. It worked. It took a few weeks and there where times when you could see he really wanted to have a tantrum but was fighting himself not to.
Sometimes he would get almost to the point of losing control. I then put down the lid and gently took a hand and said " come on, think of your book token, you have been doing so well, don't spoil it now." That generally did the trick. He got his book token three terms in a row. A little while ago he said " I don't think I need my behaviour chart anymore!" and he doesn't. He passed his grade 1 in the summer.
This is a shortened story as there had been terrible tantrums every week for the first 2 years.

Pupil 2 has an aspergers type condition. He had already been learning the violin for a while when I started teaching at the school. He had to come with his support assistant. This little boy clearly loved music but the violin was not a suitable instrument for a chap with the problems he had. Like pupil 1 he was very verbally aggressive. He would even bare his teeth and growl.He could not/would not attempt to hold the instrument properly and would clutch the bow in the wrong fist and scrape over all the strings as hard as he could. It was horrid! I tried telling HOD that it was not going anywhere but she insisted I carried on. I agreed but said I would do it my way. I forgot about the violin for a term and did some singing, marching, basic Dalcroze and a bit of Kodaly . He responded really well. He also had a behaviour chart which he asked for himself and that seemed to work. He clearly benefitted from some musical imput but the violin was never going to work. I suggested he tried the drums in order to help with his obvious frustrations. He moved to the drum teacher a term ago and I believe he is doing better.

The morals here are don't give up too soon as so often the situation can be turned round. Also, know when something really isn't working and find a way to resolve it and move on in a positive way.

I think the OP has had lots of good advice. If you get the child away from the mother it is easier to gently lay down the guidelines. Quite often children will play to the audience! Rewarding good behaviour is always good, and most are used to it as that is how most schools work. Perhaps she was pushing you to see how far she could go. It sadly isn't that uncommon.
Good luck!

I would also like to apologise to maggiemay (and other animal lovers) for comparing badly behaved children to uncivilised animals. I, too, would have more respect for most animals than for some rude children.

However I stand by everything else I said.

I think you must be a saint for persevering for so long! I think of myself as being patient, but I'm sure I couldn't have managed to continue for much more than a few weeks!

As for the first question. NO! (See previous page for the post of mine to which this refers.) This is not bullying; it is giving the child a simple choice. If this constitutes bullying, then it discredits those who are genuinely bullied for this to be placed in the same category.


With regard to the second question - I agree. I don't want to dread a 'lesson' every week with a spoilt brat who refuses to cooperate - and, yes, I do do my best to make lessons fun. So if a child is persistently rude or badly behaved, I will terminate the lessons. They will always find another teacher, if they really want to, and maybe they will think twice about their behaviour the next time round.

Yes - I agree with Jenny - I would not, I'm sure, have lasted that long.

they can be badly behaved at times, as can most adults, but to call some kids horrors and nasty pieces of work is one of the most unkind things that I have ever read on this Forum

with Petrat here.

and Dulciana, thank you.

Quite frankly, I am shocked at your attitude Burl. And yes i think a number of us do find your refferences to little horrors, bad to the bone etc as an abusive or offensive posting!! (see comments above) I am also saddened that my posting has been used as a quote to kick off these comments.

If you read my posts I do not advocate laize-faire parenting. Children do need firm boundaries but they are also children who by their very nature are learning how to behave and will inevitabley make mistakes and sometimes a whole stream of them before they learn what is and isn't apprpriate or acceptable. Quite often they do this by example. Therefore, may i suggest that some people on here think what example they are setting ....?

Also the idea that some teachers think in this way is appalling!!!! maybe you need to rethink your career if you feel this way about children or at the very least only teach adults!!!!


I hope juicyjen will find a way to relate to this child and establish a good relationship with her and her mother. After all, the ability to do this is a crucial quality in a good teacher. There's a lot more to being a music teacher than just being good at music!

If you take a little time to get to know them and what makes them tick you can get good results with many difficult children. Often there are reasons why they behave like they do and often these are well under wraps. I had such a girl in my class: she was actually one of a pair of twins and these twins had a bad name in the school. I took the time with this girl and eventually she revealed many things to me which explained the behaviour - she was suffering abuse from home. She was simply acting out and rebelling to have some control over some small things in her life. In the end I got through to her, showed her I cared and paid her a little attention (some of it in my non-teaching break and dinner times) and she actually did really well, both in her behaviour and made great progress in her work. What's more, she actually wanted to be good and do well but didn't truly believe herself capable of it. She needed me to tell her that she COULD do it if she wanted to and tried hard.

I use this story to illustrate the problems with labelling - she was not "a naughty child" she was reacting to a situation she had no control over she was abused, scared and misunderstood. How wrong would it have been for us teachers to say we "hated" her?!!!!!! Many children with extreme behavioural issues have a reason for them either a medical condition or a reaction to something.

Please can we stop bad-mouthing children on this thread? After all WE are the ADULTs!! Shouldn't our behaviour be a bit better?