My Grade 1 viola pieces are coming along well at home when I'm on my own playing, but when I have my lesson and my teacher plays the piano to accompany me, I go out of tune.

It's very frustrating and I feel like an idiot. She says that my tuning is good and that it will become moe reliable in time, but I don't want to sound like this in the exam as I know that I can stay in tune I just don't know what's happening when I'm with the piano.

Does anybody have any advice or is it just something that comes with time and practise? I've been playing since Easter and my teacher says that it can take years before you play reliably in tune all the time.

I have no experience with string instruments, but I want to encourage you .
I know it is challenging to play with accompaniment, because I even find it quite challenging to sing with live accompaniment.

Maybe you are just distracted by the presence of another instrument, and trying to keep up with the pulse?
The mind needs to coordinate among multiple simultaneous tasks. Stage-fright has not even come into the picture yet, though I myself experience slight stage-fright (Lampenfieber) when I play in front of the teacher. Do you?

Just in case you want more practice, maybe recording your teacher's accompaniment on CD and practicing at home with it will be helpful.

My sincere encouragement!! You will overcome!!

I'll add to the replies by saying that playing in tune with piano accompaniment is probably the most difficult thing you can do.

Essentially it's because your strings are tuned in perfect 5ths and are pure, while the piano is tuned in equal temperament and therefore not pure. This alone always has me classifying any piano as 'out of tune', even if they've only just been tuned! If the piano is out of tune, then it makes your tuning ten times more difficult, but it will always be the poor string/wind player who will be reprimanded for bad intonation - nobody seems to consider the d****d piano.

When you play unaccompanied, you can listen to your own tuning intently and ensure your intervals are accurate, but with the piano, you have to adjust your tuning to the accompaniment - with the exception of playing an open string.

It takes time and lots of practice, so please don't panic.

When you put your finger down on a string, it is almost never perfectly in tune, no matter how good you are.

What happens is that as soon as the note begins to sound, you make tiny adjustments to the position of your finger on the string so that it sounds just right. Generally people learn this semi-subconsciously.

This means that the key things to improve playing in tune are to listen carefully so you know what you're playing and what you should be playing and then to be relaxed enough in your left hand to be able to make adjustments.

It sounds like you're nearly there and I wonder if it goes out of tune as you get further along into the piece because you become tired and have to either concentrate more on multiple things, or can't relax your hand enough (or both).

Anyway, it all comes with time, practice and listening.

Of course, it's quite plausible that you are slipping out of tune without the piano there, but you just don't realise. Have you played the piece in unison with someone else like your teacher?

This isn't entirely accurate. Pianos aren't generally tuned to equal temperament, although a single octave around the middle of the keyboard usually is. Equal temperament tuning for all keys would sound awfully out of tune on the piano, especially for small upright pianos. The reason is that the overtones on the piano are not completely harmonic, but slightly sharp. This makes it necessary to stretch the octaves slightly in order to avoid beats. As a consequence, the piano is approximately equal-tempered near the middle of the keyboard, but deviates more and more from equal temperament as you get closer to the bass and treble ends of the keyboard. Exactly how much the octaves must be stretched depend on the length of the strings: Longer strings make the overtones closer to harmonic, and hence it isn't necessary to stretch the octaves quite as much. This is one of the reasons why grand pianos are better than upright pianos, especially when accompanying other instruments.

Your point is still valid, of course: It is more difficult to play in tune with piano accompaniment than with other bowed string instruments, because of the way the piano is tuned.

I've been playing violin for over a year and am only just getting confident with my intonation. Up until now i refused to play infront of anyone cause it was out of tune and even hated playing infront of my teacher! But now i can generally play in tune 90% of the time - with some slip ups of course!
It'll come with time, and try practising scales etc.

Thank you to everybody for your replies. I feel a bit better about things now and I'll just keep practising. My teacher has just had her piano tuned so I guess it should be okay, but when I tune my viola with my electronic tuner prior to going for my lesson, she tunes it to match her piano and she usually says that my strings are tuned slightly sharp - so, which is more accurate, the piano or the electronic tuner?

I'd definately tune to the piano. Someone may correct me though!
From what i've heard tuning to electric tuners is a no-no. I've never done it so i wouldn't know but yeah >_< Someone else can give the technical explaination why, cause i can't remember how to explain it haha.
But most of the intonation problem i'm sure is just you getting used to playing in tune, and it'll come soon

I agree - electric tuners are a pain. They're only useful in ensembles without a piano if you're needing to tune everyone to it.

I did my grade 8 over a year ago, and I still ahve some problems staying in tune, its very very difficult to play in tune ALL the time, if not impossible. You're tuning will egt better over time,
x

Electric tuners are generally in equal temperament, which means that if you tune each string to the tuner then the whole thing will not be correctly in tune in perfect fifths.

They are excellent for tuning an ensemble, as you just all tune to A=440 (or whatever pitch) and each string player can tune their own instrument into perfect fifths by ear (takes practice).

When playing with a piano, you always take the A from the piano. Every time I've ever tuned to one, the accompanist has played an A, followed by a Dminor chord. I've then tuned my viola to the best of my ability.

That's what i do - i tune it into fifths and then to make sure it IS in fifths, i play each note and see if i can continue the song 'twinkle twinkle little star' from the beginning 2 fifths. I'll literally play G, D, and sing 'twinkle twinkle little star' Then D, A, little star...
I think i need to find a more professional way of going about this o_O !

A few things I find useful:

*with bits which are consistently out of tune, sing them first - for me, this just helps me get my head round the interval

*close your eyes when playing and just really listen

*imagine the notes coming out just before you play them. Depending on the note values and tempo, you mights be singing in your head a beat or a bar ahead of what your playing - this helps me so much. I do it a lot while practising, even just with scales - I usually find I can stop thinking so hard about it by the time it comes to performing.

Hope that's helpful.

There are, I believe, some bass players who can stretch so far that tuning in fifths is OK for them, but most of us tune in fourths, at least down to the E string (I understand that in the U.S. tuning a fifth string, if you have one, to C is not unusual).

I usually tune all my bass strings on my tuner (I have one that clips on to the bridge, and can be made to take the sound straight from that rather than from the air) before the oboe gives an A, and make small adjustments later if necessary. I have to use harmonics (so-called) for the lower two strings, but that seems to work fairly well, as their frequency is more important than that of the fundamental in determining the pitch that people hear.

Sorry, forgot about bass players.

I also like to be roughly in tune before the oboe plays, but I do that with guessing and a tuning fork. I'm not sure that tuning and intonation are my strongest points.

Just to add to all the good advice that's been given is not to rush yourself. If you're only a new player, then you may not be totally at home with your instrument yet. I've been playing since 1 Feb '07 and I've really only recently started to feel at home with my viola and feel that I'm making a decent sound. Don't rush yourself to take and pass exams and try to relax as much as poss and let yourself develop at your own rate.

It IS hard playing with accompaniment and throws me as well. Give it lots of time and prac. There's no rush.

Keep it up! You'll get there. Playing with a piano is tricky because they're tuned strangely, but as everyone (rather stupidly) considers the piano to be the standard, then you have to adapt when you play.

Don't worry too much about it, it will get easier.

Also, sorry to disagree with some previous posters, but please don't tune to the piano or an electronic tuner - neither one will give you the pure fifths you need for your instrument. If your fiddle is correctly in tune then the A will register as right on the tuner, but the e will be sharp, the d flat and g flatter again.

You can, of course, as someone else has suggested, take the A from the piano or the tuner. Not the rest though!

Singing twinkle twinkle is one way to find out if your strings are in fifths, certainly, but that won't tell you if the fifths are perfect - the only way to be certain of that is to bow both strings at once and listen to make sure there are no beats in the chord created.

Allan

Please forgive my ignorance but what does "beats" mean?

If you play two notes together that are almost in tune but not quite you get a sort of interferece between them which makes a kind of "wha wha wha wha" sound. As you get closer to in tune it gets faster then suddenly dissappears when you are in tune. A bit hard to describe but once you've noticed it you will always hear it.

Wow, I think I better go and buy myself some new ears!

You mean slower, not faster.


I don't agree that it is easy to hear them for an average beginner, especially not in one's own playing. In order to hear the beats clearly, it is important to keep even and stable bow pressure on both strings while playing, which is difficult for a beginner.

That's ok then