Didnt like any of them!!!
Ive been told I would benefit from upgrading my violin and have decided Id really like an old one, I just love the old look of some violins so we went to a shop with a budget of arround £2000 and was really dissapointed. I think I was expecting too much and now realise that £2000 isnt a lot to pay for a violin. My violin in my opinion sounds clear but isnt very responsive higher up, these violins I thought sounded, kind of muted. They all seemed to sound a bit that way. Is this normal?
I then tried a couple even more expensive ones but they didnt do much for me either . I was also suprised at how new they all looked. I think the shop owner thought I was mad as I said I wanted it to look old. He said that he chose violins to sell in good condition.
Im trying another shop tomorrow so fingers crossed.

Hope you find something that you like.

£2000 is not a small amount to pay for a violin. I think that if you keep trying you should be able to find a very nice violin for £2000. I reckon you can get an early 20th centuary good quality violin for your budget!

I suspect most amateurs would be very proud to owna £2000 violin! Just don't give up.

£2000 is quite a lot to spend but these days you have to be lucky to find a good old violin at that price. Values shot up a few years ago because it suddenly became fashionable to invest money in an old violin rather than a pension fund. As a result, there are fewer good instruments left out there and the prices even for mediocre violins are higher.

Best advice is to keep looking, something will eventually turn up. It's no easier looking for good instruments in the five figure bracket either. A lot of dealers put prices on violins that reflect the name of the maker, rather than the actual playing quality of the instrument - a top name doesn't always guarantee a good tone. Tonal preferences are in themselves very subjective to the individual and additionally, the bow you use to play the violin will have a bearing on the quality of sound the instrument produces.

You do however need to have a some idea (in your head) of the sound you want. Older violins will, on the whole, have a much sweeter and warmer sound and this could have been what you thought was a muted tone. Newer instruments with thinner plates and those that have been made in a factory or large workshop environment, will have a bigger open sound often with a little harshness attached to it. Overall balance across the range of the instrument varies and it's never possible to say whether a new or old violin will perform better in this way. Tonal balance and response is individual to each instrument and even the set up of the bridge and soundpost can affect response, but it is very important if you are playing at, or intending to play at higher levels.

EDIT: with the economic downturn, you may well find instruments coming onto the market that might not have otherwise be sold. Be patient and I'm sure something will turn up in the price bracket you are looking at. Have you looked at your budget for a suitable bow? it's recommended that you spend about a quarter to a third of the value of the violin on a bow, so that the quality of the two match. Again, shop around, there are lots of good new bows out there costing a fraction of an old bow.

Just remember that age does not make the instument better.

Indeed! We have German 1860's by Placht which we are told is worth less than £1000. Its a not bad sound now we have a new bow (£300 from Liz at Elida Trading) but doesn't sound as good as a 1930's English violin which my daughter plays, we bought (11 yrs ago) for £600, and was recently valued at £3000.

Some of the older violins may not have been played for years! As a result, you can't make a judgement on tonal qualities from a single play although it might give you some idea.

The dealer I bought my violin from allowed me to keep a selection of violins for three weeks - although after a week the competition had narrowed down to two violins which I played as much as possible. The one that I chose in the end was the one that was most comfortable under hand, but needed the extra playing to open up (and now sounds even better with a change of strings).

It cost well under £2000 - so good violins are out there for your price bracket.

Thanks everyone for your replies. I did bring a 1929 violin on aproval the other day but its kind of brash sounding on some notes but my teacher thinks it may not have been played a lot. I tried loads today but upped my budget considerably as everything arround the £2000 mark did nothing for me at all and the dealer reckoned they would be much like the one I already have (which is a complement as it didnt cost me much in comparison) but he did in no way push me to go higher. I did bring 2 home to try and compare with the 1929 one. Its a nightmare, I just cant decide on any so I suppose none of them are right as none stand out, they each have there own qualitys though.

I tried a brand new one too which sounded good but I just cant get the 'old thing' out of my head. I know Im being stupid but Ive never dreamt of owning a violin worth so much so I really have to love it!!

Do keep an open mind on things. A good, new, but tastefully 'antiqued' look violin may well turn out to be the ideal alternative. Good modern makers know a lot more about how to produce violins that sound right from day one. Yes, all of them will need some playing in, but then again, look at the 1929 violin you are trying that may not have been played very much.

A friend of mine is the curator of the York Gate Collection at the RAM, so she knows a thing or two about string instruments. Her valued opinion to many is beware of an older violin that's not been played very much because it usually means people have tried it and not liked it. If an older violin shows all the classic signs of wear, even small amoutns of repair, then it proves someone has really enjoyed playing it.

You are right to say that you must love a violin before parting with your cash. It should be a long term relationship and you have to be sure it's the right one for you.

I've heard that some dealers change the strings on the violins they're selling as a way of saving money (same as some car dealers change car tyres for nearly-worn-out ones). A fresh set of strings - and your own choice of string - will make a huge difference to the sound of the instrument.

I really don't believe that this happens much in the motor trade these days. And no violin dealer in their right mind would decrease the saleability of a £2k or more instrument for the sake of a set of strings that cost £25 at most, trade price. Violins are difficult enough to sell without deliberately handicapping yourself!

Thanks again for your replies, I picked a c1850 Saxon violin and like the sound a lot but on closer inspection it has a few cracks, 2 long ones running down from both f holes (sorry about the lack of terminology ) and I know I cant expect everything as afterall its very old but its put me off a bit, mainly if I ever come to sell it. This violin is a lot of money, more than double my original budget. The other is an English violin by Thomas Absam 1849, very attractive, sounds good but is quiet in comparison and I feel I have to work hard playing it. Anyone heard of him? The 3rd is the Paolo Fiorini 1927 one that Im going off now as it does sound quite harsh especially higher up, on the D and G string it sounds good though.
Does it take ages to chose or will the shops think Im a time waster?

Cracks in the top are very common and generally not a problem at all, provided that they are stable and have been well repaired (they will have been if you're buying from a reputable dealer). Cracks in the region of the soundpost and /or bassbar are potentially more serious and could affect value/resale prospects. Saxon violins can often be a bit large and ungainly, and not everyone's cup of tea. If this is over twice your original budget I take it this is over £4k? Sounds like a lot of money to me.


If I were you I would take as long as you need to make a decision and not give a hoot whether or not the shops think you're a time waster!

Thanks Discopants, yes the Saxon violin is more than £4k. Think I will be taking that one back too . Its hard when you dont know the first thing about violins, thanks so much for your help.
Sorry to sound totally thick but where abouts is the bassbar?

The bassbar runs along most of the length of the top, more or less (but not quite) parallel to the centre line, running under the bass foot of the bridge. You'll be able to see it if you look through the upper eye of the bass f-hole.

If you want an antique violin, with no repairs, good sound and good projection, with easy playability, there's a fair chance you'll need to spend a great deal more than 4K.

That being said, 4K is clearly a substantial sum to you (and me for that matter!) and you want the most violin you can get for your money. You shouldn't compromise on playability, nor should you think too much about tone - at this level YOU make the sound much more than your violin does. If you aren't able to coax the sound you want from your fiddle yet, then spending more money on one will not suddenly produce that fabulous sound you're looking for.

I'm with AmandaL on this, check out some modern makers, with 4K you should be able to get a nice modern fiddle from a good maker that will play well, project and sound good without you feeling like it's an uphill struggle.

Allan

Thanks so much for all your replies and help.
Thanks Discopants for the bassbar explaination, the violin does look like its got a feint hairline crack on the bassbar too so Im going to give it a miss.
Thanks Rosfrog for your advice too, I went out originally thinking I would get a lovely violin for about £2k, this I thought being a substantial amount to pay and I think or should I say now know that Iwas expecting far too much. Its definately been an eye opener and I will now start again with a fresh outlook on it all. I think the violin I have must be quite a nice example for its value and I thought by spending x amount would get me something much better. I feel like Ive learnt a lot and can only thank you all for helping me.

I suggest you just buy a moderrn violin becuase you can get a lot for 2-4k. Modern violin can sound just as nice as old ones in many cases.

I play the cello and had a similar problem when I wanted to buy a better cello than my student version. I was completely convinced that I would only be satisfied with an old instrument (mainly on emotional grounds). Once I started searching and playing I quickly found that older instruments in my price range (£3000-£4000) were not that great really, and that I would have needed to spend at least twice that, whereas the new Chinese instruments that I had turned my nose up at are actually very good. I ended up buying a Jay Haide cello for £2800 (they do violins too) which are made in China for Ifshin Violins in Berkeley, CA, and imported into the UK by a few dealers.
I was very happy with it, unfortunately it suddenly developed a large crack after about 18 months (still under warranty) which I believe was just a fluke, and it has not put me off exchanging it for another Jay Haide. When I returned to the shop with the cracked cello I played just about every cello they had before deciding that there wasn't another cello there that I liked better unless I was prepared to pay more than double. So I took another Jay Haide home and it has been fine.
I can really recommend them, and they look old and scratched (they beat them up with metal chains I believe!). Two professionals have played on my cello and were very impressed with the quality for that price.

Yes, I think you'll find Suepea on here has a Haide cello too. They are good value for money. The only issue I have with many of the new instruments is their size - a 30 inch back cello with a 27 inch+ string length is too big for a small player like me. To get tonal quality in a small cello one needs to look at older instruments, which may have been specially built for a small musician, but regrettably they are a lot more expensive. Having said that, cellos have a bigger variation in size than violins and recently the Cambridge dealer Aithchison Mnatzaganian produced an article in their newsletter which posed the question "What is a full sized cello?" Turns out Stradivari himself made cellos ranging in back size from 690 mm (a little over 27 inches) right up to a whopping 792 mm (more than 31 inches), all of which are termed full size instruments.

Back to the point in question of what you get for your money, as you rightly say, old celli that sound good don't really start at 3 to 4k. Tends to be 6k+ these days, which is expensive. On the plus side, you could look at it as a good investment - although I'm not sure the market is as strong at the moment for any string instrument, so could a good be time for bargaining even with tight-fisted dealers.

Whereabouts are you based, Louby?
£2000 - £4000 should, with time, find you the instrument that YOU really want to play. Don't let yourself be psyched out by dealers looking for a sale, remember that you are in charge and that, especially at the moment there are probably a lot more violins out there for sale than there are people looking to spend that sort of money on a musical instrument.

Take your time, enjoy the process. Mentally, it can help if you decide at the outset that you are going to spend the first - say - three to six months familiarising yourself with the sorts of instruments that are out there and finding out for yourself what you do like and what you don't. Don't worry about getting hard sell from dealers; tell them that you are looking now as you have a significant birthday/ investment maturing in a year's time / whatever other excuse you feel comfortable with preparing in advance, so that you do not immediately feel presured to choose before you are ready.

You will probably know almost as soon as you come across the right instrument for you. It will feel comfortable to hold and play and you will feel that it is lifting your playing effort and enjoyment to a whole new level.

Don't try too many prospective violins out in one session. It's easy for your brain, ears and fingers to overload if you are not careful.

When you find one or two instruments you really like, get someone you trust to play them for you so that you can hear what they sound like from a listener's perspective. Do this 'blind' - listen to someone playing the violins, including, if possible, your existing instument, without telling you which instrument is which, so that you can make a genuine, unemotional comparison.

Once you get to a fairly firm shortlist, try the violin (s) out in different situations; at home, anywhere else you play regularly; in a church/village hall/concert hall so that you can see how the acoustics fare in different environments.

If you find an instrument that you fall in love with but think that the sound isn't quite what you are looking for, talk to the dealer/luthier as sound adjustments and different strings can make a huge difference. Don't be rushed into anything.

Amanda's advice about bows is very sound. Do allow for a bow of the correct level to match your new violin and to propel your playing further. For now, try a few different bows in different price ranges with your existing violin to give you an idea of the differrence it can make. When you have your shortlisted violin (s) make sure you try a good range of bows, including your present bow, to help you to make the best decision.

Have you asked your teacher for advice? As a teacher myself I find it very exciting and rewarding to be involved in a pupil's choice of instrument when upgrading. Your teacher, if you have one, is likely to have a good local base of contacts and much more advice than can be fitted onto a forum about chosing an instrument and bow combination that is likely to be the best fit for you.

Good luck and happy hunting.

Also remeber to haggle on the price. Nothing like getting a discount. I reckon you could get one due to current economic situation, not enough violin sales.

Ive certainly had violin overload, I went to try some more and got to the point where I was totally fed up and down about it all as they all began to sound the same. I have one that I initially decided against but after playing it more and hearing my teacher play it, quite like.
Im trying another shop on Satureday (Im based near Manchester) and Im going to be totally upfront as I feel if I dont then Im going to get myself in even more of a dilema. Im going to tell him Ive been elsewhere and that I like one instrument but dont feel sure enough to commit to it. At least that way I wont feel as bad if I dont buy from this shop but want to use there services further down the line.
Im glad you said about the sound being able to be changed as I have seen some beautiful instruments but have been put off by the sound. The instrument I like has Dominants on at the moment and my teacher reckons it will sound better with Evahs which although are expensive would save me thousands as this instrument is the cheapest one Ive shortlisted.
Thanks for all your help, once the violin is picked I then face picking a bow Aaaagh

I was looking in your price range and it took me ages to find a violin I liked. Like you I found some of the older violins quite muted - but as everyone else says that can be due to the violin not being played for a while. I went to see a few dealers but couldn't find anything I liked.

I was also based in Manchester at the time and went see a maker, Helen Michetslager, who has a workshop in Ancoats. As soon as I picked up the violin I knew it was 'the one'. It's a lovely instrument and I don't regret my choice. So definitely don't give up looking and don't settle for something you're not sure about - it's a lot of money!