Following on from my Tried some violin posts, just wondered how violins are valued especially the copies or unlabelled violins.
Ive been give 2 seperate prices for my violin from 2 different dealers and they vary a lot. The violins I wanted to part ex it for vary too in price so it looks like its not been based on what Im possibly spending.

Sorry meant to add condition must be a major factor but one violin is unlabelled, got well repaired cracks but is the most expensive???

Violins seem to be valued based on various factors which include:

The Maker
Country of Origin
Condition
Age
Physical Beauty
Tone
Investment Potential
Size and Arching

The factors are in declining order of importance. The way a violin acutally sounds comes quite a long way down the list. There are other factors that are taken into account as well, for example, responsiveness, evenness, arching (flat as opposed to high), wolf tones or lack of them, clarity of tone and correct measurements.

Experts usually seem to be able to tell the origins of unlabelled instruments based on the appearance of the instrument and details of the way it has been made. They will base their valuation on their assessment. If you look at enough violins you can start to recognise certain features that indicate where a violin was made as well.

It is possible to find great sounding instruments that do not cost a vast amount, but you have to be lucky to find them. This is because performers do not tend to sell instruments that sound good, even if they are not valuble. An instrument that sounds very good (irrespective of its price) may get passed down a family for several generations and therefore not come onto the market often and when it does it may be bought relatively quickly if it sounds significantly better than other violins in its price range.

Repaired cracks on a violin aren't necessarily a problem. It depends whereabouts on the violin they are located. Personally I wouldn't buy a violin with a repaired crack in the region of the soundpost, but I would consider one with a well-repaired crack in a less critical area.

Different dealers may offer different prices for a violin depending on how much they want to buy it from you, rather than how much it is actually worth. For example, if the dealer has a potential customer who wants to buy a violin just like yours he may offer more for it than a dealer who has several similar violins hanging up unsold in his shop. Similarly, if a dealer wants to sell a violin as he hasn't sold many recently, he may offer it at a lower price than if he has sold a lot. You just have to be lucky.

I bought another violin recently so I know how difficult it is to find the right one. Good luck with your search.

Thanks so much for that.
Ive just returned from another trip to the shop, I feel deflated . What started out as something so exciting has left me feeling fed up today. I tried about 10 more of varying prices, dwindled it down to 5 and couldnt differentiate between any of them hardly. Ive come home with 3 on approval!! One is the one I decided against last week Its a beautiful looking violin but was a bit brash on some notes but he told me today it was a collectors and hasnt been played a lot so I just couldnt leave it there

Louby, I know this is the wrong thread, but don't be discouraged - treat it as a long but very exciting journey! It might take you from 2 months to 2 years (and I'd lean towards the latter) to find a violin you really like.

I'm not sure about UK prices, but I think your budget means you can afford something very nice, but you should take your time, so that you don't feel rushed into getting an older violin with major problems, or a mass-produced violin that is a bit overpriced.

If you are a beginner, you don't want to marry your violin in haste and repent at leisure - you will probably start to enjoy the higher registers more as you gain more skills, and you will also be better able to judge the higher registers too. It's not hard to find violins that sound good either on the high or the low notes, but you may need to just take your time and enjoy all your violin encounters until you find a violin that is balanced, has a tone you find attractive, and is the right price for you.

I know that in Japan, some violins are valued much higher or lower than they would be in another country - so much is subjective.

P.S. The "it'll open up as you play it in" line is a big porky. It's true that the sound on a little-played violin will change, but if you played it several hours daily for 2-3 days, I think you should already be hearing most of the potential. And the sound should never be muffled - no "playing in" will fix that - or badly unbalanced. Playing in is icing on the cake - no cake, no icing!

Thanks so much for that.
Ive just returned from another trip to the shop, I feel deflated . What started out as something so exciting has left me feeling fed up today. I tried about 10 more of varying prices, dwindled it down to 5 and couldnt differentiate between any of them hardly. Ive come home with 3 on approval!! One is the one I decided against last week Its a beautiful looking violin but was a bit brash on some notes but he told me today it was a collectors and hasnt been played a lot so I just couldnt leave it there

Maker, country of origin and hence investment potential are probably the biggest factors in a valuation. Just by being Italian pushes the value up, even for lesser known/unknown makers. Condition does play a part, but only if it has substantial damage that may have been poorly repaired or crass modifications that cannot be changed.

Age, well, new violins will never quite be in the same bracket as an older counterpart, but some new instruments sell for more than an average 19th century violin.

Physical beauty and tone tend not to factor at all. To be honest, dealers wouldn't push up the value of an instrument because it has a good tone tone - ideal tone is subjective to each player. In a similar vein, physical beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

While the size of an instrument will affect its ability to sell, arching tends not affect value but may render the instrument less suitable for large scale orchestral work, simply because higher arching reduces the actual volume of sound the instrument can produce. Horse for courses.

What does affect value is any written provenance that comes with the instrument. Receipts and particularly certificates, esp. those issued by dealers such as W E Hill or J & A Beare.

My early 19thC English violin is made by James Brown but not labelled. It does however come with a Hill certificate and receipts, which increase the instrument's value considerably.

Thanks for all your help.
Ive no idea why my earlier reply has appeared twice, I wasnt even home at the time the second one appeared????
Right, I feel all inspired again now, I think the lots got to go back and I need to start again. I felt like I had to bring something home today as its a hundred mile round trip, silly me cos it means Ive another trip to do next week now to take them all back cos if Im honest nothing really appealled to me.
Theres a local shop Im going to try at weekend, fingers crossed.

Erm, this is completely untrue. My 2005-made violin (sells news for about £8500 now) has changed beyond my expectations into a completely different violin and is still changing significantly. I am playing on it for upwards of 5 hours per day to put it in context. Unbalanced violins will not change so much, but often a new or neglected violin will sound muffled until played for some time, often a period of years, to open it up. My teacher just bought a Guadagnini largely as an investment and frankly it sounded pretty gross (esp under the ear) 6 months ago. Now the middle strings have really opened up and it projects at a much lesser distance and produces a very different tone altogether.

Something not really explored yet is set-up. That probably changes that tone of a violin more than anything else can. You should take some violins you have on approval to a top luthier and ask his/her opinion on whether some adjustments to the sound post/bass bar/strings/fingerboard/bridge etc would make a difference. You may be hearing some violins at significantly less than their full potential. Also be sure to consider how the violin sounds to others at a distance, if you ever intend on performing in any situation with it. I had a beautiful Tononi on loan for a year which had the most incredible silky tone under the ear but the sound simply didn't carry once you took it out of a small room. Parting with it was very hard, and I still miss practicing on it, but when I heard mine played by someone else in a concert hall, I understood why projection is such a key factor in instrument choice.

Finally you should be aware of the distinction (particularly in this economic situation) between players' and collectors' instruments. Some violins may be in shoddy condition, made by an unknown and be ugly, but play beautifully. These are players' instruments. My bow is like this Basically you get much more for your money if you can find something like this rather than an old, mint condition, beautiful example of a known Italian-made violin which will attract investment interest, necessarily pushing up the price quite a bit. It depends a bit on your price range of course but if you're primarily a player, at any price you can be happy to look for something which sounds great regardless of anything else. Makes the buying criteria a bit simpler as well

Your knowledge and dedication are truly impressive, Bohemian (still don't agree with your anti-RAM stance, though ). Who made your violin by the way?

Rather pointless to argue about the playing-in thing, as it's entirely based on belief and subjective opinion. My own belief is that the sound of a stringed instrument changes a lot in a fairly short period after it's first strung up and stabilises under the rather large static tension it's suddenly subjected to. Beyond that, I'm sceptical. The properties of the instrument can, of course, change a bit with time, but isn't it odd that these changes always conspire to make the instrument sound better, rather than worse?
Don't you think that with 5 hours a day practice it might possibly be you that's getting better rather than your violin?

Regarding set-up, one thing that you should always check is the neck angle. This is a key aspect, which can be rather expensive to put right. Easily checked with a couple of rulers.

Im going to a local shop tomorrow hopefully to look at his violins, he I believe is a respected good Luthier but I would feel really awkward taking another dealers instrument for him to check out. I am going to tell him I have short listed one from somewhere else as if I dont and end up buying it, I feel I wont be able to use him again in the future so I want to be up front from the start.
Is it normal practice to look at someones stock and then ask them to there opinion about another violin??

Well, it sounds like you've fallen into the 'I want to make sure I'm not overpaying for something' trap - don't.

Another luthier may be honest and tell you that the other fiddle is great. He may lie and say it's rubbish to encourage you to buy one of his. You will have no way of judging his honesty, so the whole thing is a pointless operation.

Don't fall into the same trap that people do who want to purchase a good bargain holiday and spend so long checking things out on every site to make sure they aren't being had that they end up not going away.

Try a load of fiddles and choose one that you like within your price range. You'll have to play it, no one else.

If you want a good and fairly objective opinion, take the ones you have on approval to your teacher's house and ask for his / her opinion.

You're buying yourself a lovely gift, don't turn it into a chore - pick one you love and don't give a damn if it's the 'right' one for the right price from someone else's point of view.

Very difficult to be sure that you're getting an objective opinion in such circumstances.



Excellent advice.

Sorry Rosfrog and Discopants, I think Ive given you the wrong impression, I was questioning Bohemians reply about taking a violin on approval to a different luthier to apraise and asking if this was the done thing. I agree they could and probably would say it wasnt up to much if they wanted to sell me something.
I dont feel the violin Ive shortlisted is overpriced (its actually one of the cheaper ones Ive tried) and I certainly wouldnt want the guy tomorrow to value it for me or even look at it. I just want to be up front with him so I dont end up feeling like I couldnt use his services in the future if I end up buying this violin and not one from him. I just want to be honest.

It's a shop! You're under no obligation to buy from him just because you tried something. Nor does that exclude you from using his services in the future.

We do tend to deify luthiers a little. It's a shop - he wants to sell something. If it's not the right product for you, just take it back and say no thanks. You'll still be able to use them again, no trouble.

Get one or two from him, try them against the one you already have and then make your choice. Take back the ones you're not keeping and enjoy your fab new fiddle, guilt-free and safe in the knowledge that the violinmaker (shop keeper) will still let you buy strings there in the future, even if you didn't get your fiddle there.

Allan

PS/ It's a shop.

(oh, and post pictures so we can see what you ended up with - I've been very good at not buying any more instruments for ages now, so I need a fix and I'm going to live through you, if that's ok!)

I know but Im a right softy I took my violin there when I first bought it to be set up and then went somewhere else cos it was cheaper and dreaded ringing him about buying a new violin.
I was so excited when I started looking but got so fed up last week as each violin I tried ended up sounding the same and I just ended up totally mixed up.
Right Im toughenned up now ....its a shop, its a shop, its a shop .
Thanks for all your help.
Oh forgot to ask.... any tips??? Only joking, thanks again

[quote name='DiscoPants' date='Nov 13 2008, 06:14 PM' post='759490']
Your knowledge and dedication are truly impressive, Bohemian (still don't agree with your anti-RAM stance, though ). Who made your violin by the way?[/quote]
I'm not anti-RAM, both my parents went there and met there. I just wouldn't want to go myself. Thanks - I'm just lucky tp have had the opportunity to play a number of significant instruments. My violin is from Cambridge made by Neil Ertz. I would highly recommend his instruments to anyone.

[/quote]The properties of the instrument can, of course, change a bit with time, but isn't it odd that these changes always conspire to make the instrument sound better, rather than worse?[/quote]
The reason they improve with time is that the vibrations put through the wood by playing bring out more harmonics and in different strengths, which is basically what determines the quality of sound. That, and any emerging problems can usually be fixed easily. It is really incredible what a good luthier can do.

[/quote] Don't you think that with 5 hours a day practice it might possibly be you that's getting better rather than your violin? [/quote]
Nope, I think it will see me through music college, at least until postgrad auditions. I am biased of course being its owner, but I think it competes well with any instrument. I've played £250,000 violins which I thought were worse instruments (but had a good name to them and in good condition). It's all subjective once you get to a certain quality anyway.


Louby - not all luthiers are interested in selling violins, the one nearest me just repairs. Besides, if you pick one and really like it, I think there is no harm in taking it to the luthier, you don't necessarily need to mention that you haven't exchanged money yet, and just say you value his opinion etc etc, what needs doing?

[/quote]The properties of the instrument can, of course, change a bit with time, but isn't it odd that these changes always conspire to make the instrument sound better, rather than worse?[/quote]

"The reason they improve with time is that the vibrations put through the wood by playing bring out more harmonics and in different strengths"

Yes, I know that's what people say. Is there any scientific evidence to support this theory?


[/quote] Don't you think that with 5 hours a day practice it might possibly be you that's getting better rather than your violin? [/quote]
"Nope, I think it will see me through music college, at least until postgrad auditions. I am biased of course being its owner, but I think it competes well with any instrument. I've played £250,000 violins which I thought were worse instruments (but had a good name to them and in good condition). It's all subjective once you get to a certain quality anyway."

I think you misunderstood my comment, bohemian. You have a violin from one of the very best makers around, and I'm sure it will have been fantastic from day 1. I'm suggesting that the reason it seems to be improving with time might be that you're getting more out of it as your own technique, strength, etc improves.

I believe so, I remember reading an article in Strad magazine about it. Possibly the fact that you rarely get wolf notes in new or under-played instruments is evidence but I don't claim to understand physics particularly well


Well my teacher is certain it has changed from playing it himself. Sure I now make a better sound on it but I am talking about very basic qualities which anyone with a fairly solid technique would be unable to manipulate to any real degree. It's very difficult to explain the changes I've noticed but I am convinced that there is much more depth of sound especially on the lower 3 strings. The pure level of projection has increased significantly as well. I'm hoping it will continue to change though, there are still a few areas where I can imagine it will develop still further.
I wonder why many makers employ violinists to break-in new instruments before trying to sell them if the difference is really so small?

[/quote]

I wonder why many makers employ violinists to break-in new instruments before trying to sell them if the difference is really so small?
[/quote]

Even if one doesn't believe in "playing in" in the sense that you mean it, there are very sound reasons to have a "break-in" playing period, to enable general teething troubles to come to light, optimise setup, enable final(ish) soundpost adjustment before it goes to the client, that sort of thing.

As I said earlier, I don't disagree that the sound (and response) of a violin will change with time, quite spectacularly so in a relatively short period after it's first strung up. I have also heard really alarming day-to-day and seasonal variations in sound, presumably due to changes in temperature and humidity (there are sound scientific reasons for this, as the Helmholtz resonance frequency will change).

I believe that psychology plays a huge role in the perception of sound. If people are really convinced that something ought to make a difference to sound quality, then they will hear that difference. That's why otherwise rational hi-fi enthusiasts will spend ludicrous sums of money on nonsense like gold plated mains plugs etc and then claim they can hear massive improvements in the sound quality of their systems. I know this, because (to my profound embarrassment) I've fallen victim to such nonsense myself in the past. .

Just stumbled across this, by the way:

Effects of age and playing

TO go back to the original question on valuation. If your violin was made recently and is a readily available mass produced model then the main factor in valuation is the price of the same model new. The dealer wont be able to sell a used one for as much as a new one, it may require some work done, he has to make a profit and he has to add vat so you are not likely to get more than 60% of its new price.

If you are offered more than that then the dealer is cutting his profit margin on the one he is selling in order to make a sale. Dealers will often set an asking price with some room for negotiation and they know people don't like to feel they have lost too much money on a previous purchase so will offer to pay more for the part exchange rather than cutting the cost of the replacement.