Help again please.. sorry about all of it

Im doing this thoery paper agin.. it says " The extract begins in the key of A major and ends in the key of...................." <-- insert key here... its got A# at the last bar ( bar 12) and in ( bar 11) it has D# and E#....

Look for a perfect cadence in the new key. One of the chromatic notes will be the leading note of the new key, and that leading note will be the third in chord V immediately before I in the new key. That I will presumably be the last chord in the extract, no?

from what confusing info you've given me on and off the forums, i think the new key is F# major. it just doesnt seem right to me, ah well!

Sounds like F# minor to me.

You have the raised 6 and 7th - D and E

Fiona

QUOTE (BabyBanana @ Oct 24 2004, 05:05 AM)

Help again please.. sorry about all of it Im doing this thoery paper agin.. it says " The extract begins in the key of A major and ends in the key of...................." <-- insert key here... its got A# at the last bar ( bar 12) and in ( bar 11) it has D# and E#....

I think it is not so easy to tell the key, perhaps can you tell more about the last few chords?

she told me the last chord has the notes F# C# and A#

im v confused with this, i neeed to see the paper!lol

Which past paper is it? ause I still have all mine, (and I did loads of them, so chances are I have the answer to this written down somewhere!

Yep - I agree with Nat's first reply - sounds like F# major to me too.

If you add the three extra sharps to the three you already have in the key signature, you end up with six sharps - which could be F# major.

That fits if the last chord has the notes F# C# and A# I think.

Maggie

It sounds odd for a short extract(I think) to have the modulation from A major to F sharp major.
Also, there may contain passing notes, which is not counted for the modulation. I think the only way is to tell at least 4 to 5 chords for us to think.

QUOTE (Alvin @ Oct 24 2004, 01:50 PM)

It sounds odd for a short extract(I think) to have the modulation from A major to F sharp major.

thats why im not sure. it took me 15 minutes to get the notes of the last chord out of her, it will take days to get the rest lol. i hope its form a practice paper and not a exercise form her teacher and then maybe itll make sense!

apparantly it is from Grade 5 past paper 2003 Paper S pleezse look if u have it, i dont and its really bugging me!

Yes, we definitely need more information.

In Grade 5 it can only the the supertonic (B minor) the dominant, the subdominant or the relative minor, surely. I mean, they wouldn't trick people with a tierce de P would they?

Otherwise you wannabe grade 5 theorist have got your work cut out

Nat sorry - I don't have the paper.

QUOTE

]Sounds like it could possibly be F# Minor because of the raised D# and E#(melodic) but that doesn`t account for the A#....

That was what threw me too - but you could have something there, F# minor (relative minor of A major) finishing on a major chord - tierce de picardie ??

It shouldn't be too obscure surely at grade 5 ??

Maggie

QUOTE (maggiemay @ Oct 24 2004, 02:34 PM)

That was what threw me too - but you could have something there, F# minor (relative minor of A major) finishing on a major chord - tierce de picardie ??

ye it might be that, tamsin might have the past paper so we'll just keep waiting and hope she knows that answer!

QUOTE

apparantly it is from Grade 5 past paper 2003 Paper S

Aha - I've found the paper, and the answer is........ F# major! It's in a cello piece by Gordon Jacob. It's actually at the end of a 12 bar extract, but the modulation only happens in the last 2 bars. To be honest, I would say it's really F# minor with a Tierce de Picardie, but I don't think they'd expect that at Grade 5.

QUOTE (clarinetlover @ Oct 24 2004, 09:24 AM)

apparantly it is from Grade 5 past paper 2003 Paper S    pleezse look if u have it, i dont and its really bugging me!

I was just about to look at this in preparation for my exam next Saturday!

After a quickish glance it looks like F# major to me.
(Although I've only had one cup of coffee so far this morning!)

The last chord (last bar) is F# major in (essentially) root position.
The piano has dotted half notes (minims) of (from the bass) F#, A#, C#, F#
The piano L.H. also has descending quarter note (crotchets) of F#, C#, F#
and the cello part has a dotted half note F#.

The last chord (last quarter note) in the previous bar is C# major in root position.
Piano is (from the bass) C#, G#, C#, E#. Cello is G#.

These two chords form a Va -> Ia in F# major.

To look at more than just the last two chords, the second to last bar containts four chords which I don't really follow the function of:
G# half diminished (vii of A?)
F# minor (vi of A?, ii of E?)
B (dom. )7 (V of E?)
C# (V of F#)

QUOTE (Juze @ Oct 24 2004, 09:55 AM)

Aha - I've found the paper, and the answer is........ F# major! It's in a cello piece by Gordon Jacob. It's actually at the end of a 12 bar extract, but the modulation only happens in the last 2 bars. To be honest, I would say it's really F# minor with a Tierce de Picardie, but I don't think they'd expect that at Grade 5.

So, do you propose that the second to last bar can all be interpreted as f# minor?

i.e.
G# half diminished (iio of f# harmonic)
F# minor (i of f#)
B (dom. )7 (IV of f# melodic)
C# (V of f#)

Thanks.

argh this is sooo confusing! well we know its F# something!

QUOTE

So, do you propose that the second to last bar can all be interpreted as f# minor?

Yes. But the question is "......the piece ends in the key of........?". The last bar is definitely F# major, and that is the answer I would expect from a pupil.

I must say, someone should have thought this one through a bit more carefully before setting it as an exam question, although being paper "S" it wasn't a real exam. Phew!

so i was right err woohoo!!

it does seem odd though

Cripes....!

Babybanana...diplomacy alone warns me not to say it can only get worse, or are you only taking G5 theory?


R

QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Oct 24 2004, 06:55 PM)

Babybanana...diplomacy alone warns me not to say it can only get worse, or are you only taking G5 theory?

only grade 5 theory!

Sorry guys, I only just caught up with this thread!

I'll just go and see what I put...

QUOTE (Juze @ Oct 24 2004, 12:54 PM)

I must say, someone should have thought this one through a bit more carefully before setting it as an exam question, although being paper "S" it wasn't a real exam. Phew!

Why do you say that "S" isn't a real exam?
That's what appeared on the exam I did yesterday!

Well my teacher says that S is for supplementary. I think whether it is used or not is determined by the amount of exams that year?

QUOTE

Why do you say that "S" isn't a real exam?

If you bought, say, the set of 2003 papers, A is the paper that was actually taken in February of that year, B in June, and C in November. S is supplementary, I think it's just an extra one inserted to give you more practise. I don't think it's ever used for a real exam as I'm not aware the AB offer any other sittings than the three each year.

QUOTE (Juze @ Oct 31 2004, 11:50 AM)

QUOTE Why do you say that "S" isn't a real exam? If you bought, say, the set of 2003 papers, A is the paper that was actually taken in February of that year, B in June, and C in November. S is supplementary, I think it's just an extra one inserted to give you more practise. I don't think it's ever used for a real exam as I'm not aware the AB offer any other sittings than the three each year.

As I just wrote - I thought the exam I took yesterday was the 2004S. (Pretty sure about that if not 100%). It ought to be a real exam as ABRSM charged me money to do it!
By the way, I'm located in the United States if that makes any difference.

QUOTE

By the way, I'm located in the United States if that makes any difference.

Oh maybe that makes a difference (I'm in the UK). How many times a year can you take the theory exams in the US?

I have it on good authority from my teacher that they use the supplementary paper if anything happens that means they are not able to use A B or C in any sitting... For example, a stolen paper.

So do you think that the exam Spaceman did yesterday is the same one that people in the UK are going to be doing on Wednesday? I must admit, I had never thought before about whether the exam was done on different days iin different countries.

QUOTE (Juze @ Oct 31 2004, 12:32 PM)

Oh maybe that makes a difference (I'm in the UK). How many times a year can you take the theory exams in the US?

According to the ABRSM web site for the US the dates you could do theory in 2004 were:
Saturday 28 February
Saturday 12 June
Saturday 30 October

So is it F# minor?

QUOTE (Juze @ Oct 31 2004, 06:13 PM)

So do you think that the exam Spaceman did yesterday is the same one that people in the UK are going to be doing on Wednesday? I must admit, I had never thought before about whether the exam was done on different days iin different countries.

I was thinking about this last year when it appeared that some people from the Malaysia/Singapore area were doing some theory papers a day or two later than the ones in the UK and the theory papers were being discussed on the board. Do the ABRSM use the same papers in all the different countries? And if so, surely there is potential for cheating to occur. I don't suppose that there's much that can be done about it though (other than writing separate papers for each country, which is costly and time consuming) because to do it at the same time in the UK and Singapore one group of candidates would probably end up doing it at midnight!

QUOTE (Juze @ Oct 31 2004, 01:13 PM)

So do you think that the exam Spaceman did yesterday is the same one that people in the UK are going to be doing on Wednesday? I must admit, I had never thought before about whether the exam was done on different days iin different countries.

Would it be giving too much away then, do you think, to warn people that the ABRSM has completely changed the exam structure and that most of this exam is on Javanese Gamelan music?

Just remember that the sléndro scale has five notes to the octave, fairly evenly spaced, while the pélog scale has seven notes to the octave, with uneven intervals, usually played in five note subsets of the seven-tone collection, and you'll get an easy 15 marks!

(Of course, I know that most readers of this forum will be too smart to make the common mistake of getting mixed up between the composition of the Mangkunagaran and Pakualaman ensembles.)

Ha, ha. I will of course warn my pupil who's taking it on Wednesday!