Just need to get my wits about me.
I've only had french horn for a relatively short time (since mid september) and i'm unsure about makes.
My first horn was besson? (ithink) but then i got upgraded to yamaha, which i like better.
In your opinion, what are the better horn makes?
Full Version: Best Make Of French Horn?
I know nothing about French Horns but here is something that might open a few windows for you..
http://www.paxman.co.uk/pages/index.html?h...rnspecials.html
Good luck with the FH, lovely instrument..
Andrew
http://www.paxman.co.uk/pages/index.html?h...rnspecials.html
Good luck with the FH, lovely instrument..
Andrew
We were comparing horns in orchestra earlier, and i prefer my yamaha to my friend's paxman. But possibly it was just her model, rather than the make. :-)
Paxman horns have been popular with some English professional players since they started making designs by the late Richard Merewether. The most common make in US orchestras, where wide bore horns are the norm, seems to be Conn, but their places of manufacture have changed over the last 40 years or so, and the instruments made in Texas are of very variable quality, according to some players. Alexanders have been making horns in Mainz since 1782 and their instruments still have a high reputation; they are medium bore and make a sound that resembles trombones less than the wide-bore American instruments. Yamaha horns are very reliable and will play better than some instruments from European factories with less close production control. There are still small makers whose instruments are largely built by hand. Engelbert Schmidt is among the best of these, but you pay (and wait) for the privilege: his single Bb/A horns are 5200 Euros, doubles start at 7680 and triples at 11250.
Among other makers who made some instruments of professional quality are Boosey & Hawkes, who marketed a respectable copy of the famous Alexander 103 c. 1950, Hoyer of East Germany, whose early, hand-made horns were valued, and Lawson, another top US large-scale producer. The majority of the instruments from the large-scale US manufacturers were made for the high-school and university marching band market, and would rarely have been used by a professional orchestral player.
Among other makers who made some instruments of professional quality are Boosey & Hawkes, who marketed a respectable copy of the famous Alexander 103 c. 1950, Hoyer of East Germany, whose early, hand-made horns were valued, and Lawson, another top US large-scale producer. The majority of the instruments from the large-scale US manufacturers were made for the high-school and university marching band market, and would rarely have been used by a professional orchestral player.
Wow. That's one massive reply!
You've certainly broadened my mind on french horns.
Quite expensive though!
When i'm about 18 i'm hoping to buy a triple f/Bb/high F horn...I still have to decide on the make though.
You've certainly broadened my mind on french horns.
Quite expensive though!When i'm about 18 i'm hoping to buy a triple f/Bb/high F horn...I still have to decide on the make though.
sorry to ask my questions in fabnt's thread
but, can you tell me the difference of single, double and triple horns?
are they the same in quality of tone
and also if a horn player started learn a single horn, can he/she play the double and triple horns?
thx a lot ^^
but, can you tell me the difference of single, double and triple horns?
are they the same in quality of tone
and also if a horn player started learn a single horn, can he/she play the double and triple horns?
thx a lot ^^
The differences are in the number and arrangement of valves and in length of tubing. The two combined make the variety huge. My 1972 Alexander catalogue had about 140 different configurations, most of them being available in three brass alloys.
Single horns have three, four or five valves*, and the airway passes through all of them all the time, by either the short (straight through) route or the long one via tubing of various lengths. On modern horns, the length when all valves are "open" (i.e. straight through) is usually such as to give either the F or the Bb harmonic series. The first valve (i.e. the one worked by the first finger of the left hand) lowers the pitch by a tone, the second valve by a semitone and the third by a minor third. Bb single horns usually have four or five valves. The fourth valve is usually set to lower the pitch by 3/4 of a tone, because this is the length by which hand stopping shortens the acoustic length of the instrument, but since valve tubing can be changed, lengths giving a semitone and a perfect fourth are often provided also. On five-valve Bb instruments, the fifth valve may be a second thumb valve or worked by the fourth finger. A typical configuration would put the 3/4 tone valve under the thumb and the fourth under the fourth finger. This configuration (as used by Dennis Brain's uncle Alfred Brain in Los Angeles in the middle of the last century) gives useful combinations for low notes that are either not available or only with difficulty on a four-valve Bb instrument.
* Early 19th C. horns were also made with two valves. These had crooks to change the "straight-through" key.
The double horn is the current standard configuration, used by the majority of players, both amateur and professional. This has two main routes through the tubing, selected by a thumb valve, giving the series for F and Bb. In the "full double in F and Bb", each of these goes through a set of double finger valves. Each valve inserts the appropriate length of tubing to extend the basic length by the same fraction. Another (lighter and slightly cheaper) configuration is called a "compensator", in which the Bb airway passes through each valve once and the F airway twice. Both of these are also available with different basic lengths. My number one instrument is a full double in Bb and F alto: the length with all valves straight through gives the Bb series; the thumb valve shortens the instrument to give the F series an octave higher than that of the more usual F and Bb double. Typically, also, it has a second thumb valve, affecting the Bb side only, for hand stopping or A length.
Triple horns are expensive and still rare: I have only ever seen one. They usually combine the three lengths already mentioned: F, Bb and F alto, but F, Bb and Eb alto horns are also available. They tend to be heavy, and to minimise this problem they are typically made as a full double F and Bb with a compensating F alto. Compensating F and Bb with full double or compensating F or Eb alto would also be possible, but I don't know whether anyone makes one.
I have spent some time thinking how I could add a sixth valve to my Bb/F alto horn to make the Bb side equivalent to the five-valve single described in the first paragraph above. This would allow unorthodox fingerings to give nearly all the lengths available from a triple horn. The long ones are desirable to give a better sound to the low notes that are typically required only in parts for horns 2 and 4 in a section.
The original 19th C valves were of widely varying quality, and were attacked by the critics of the time for ruining the tone of the instrument. Valves are now much refined, and degrade the sound minimally. However, there is a natural variation of tone with length of tube that may be exploited but must be controlled. Many teachers insist that a beginner should use the F horn for the middle register, where the horn sound is most characteristic, and work to be able produce a similar sound in the upper register, where the shorter Bb and F alto sides are used for greater security. In the lower register, where a 2nd or 4th horn may be part of a three- or four-part chord, appropriate volume and exact tuning may be more important than beautiful sound, and a shorter length of tubing may provide these.
Complicated as the above may appear, it well short of covering all possible configurations of valves and tubing that give satisfactory orchestral horns.
Single horns have three, four or five valves*, and the airway passes through all of them all the time, by either the short (straight through) route or the long one via tubing of various lengths. On modern horns, the length when all valves are "open" (i.e. straight through) is usually such as to give either the F or the Bb harmonic series. The first valve (i.e. the one worked by the first finger of the left hand) lowers the pitch by a tone, the second valve by a semitone and the third by a minor third. Bb single horns usually have four or five valves. The fourth valve is usually set to lower the pitch by 3/4 of a tone, because this is the length by which hand stopping shortens the acoustic length of the instrument, but since valve tubing can be changed, lengths giving a semitone and a perfect fourth are often provided also. On five-valve Bb instruments, the fifth valve may be a second thumb valve or worked by the fourth finger. A typical configuration would put the 3/4 tone valve under the thumb and the fourth under the fourth finger. This configuration (as used by Dennis Brain's uncle Alfred Brain in Los Angeles in the middle of the last century) gives useful combinations for low notes that are either not available or only with difficulty on a four-valve Bb instrument.
* Early 19th C. horns were also made with two valves. These had crooks to change the "straight-through" key.
The double horn is the current standard configuration, used by the majority of players, both amateur and professional. This has two main routes through the tubing, selected by a thumb valve, giving the series for F and Bb. In the "full double in F and Bb", each of these goes through a set of double finger valves. Each valve inserts the appropriate length of tubing to extend the basic length by the same fraction. Another (lighter and slightly cheaper) configuration is called a "compensator", in which the Bb airway passes through each valve once and the F airway twice. Both of these are also available with different basic lengths. My number one instrument is a full double in Bb and F alto: the length with all valves straight through gives the Bb series; the thumb valve shortens the instrument to give the F series an octave higher than that of the more usual F and Bb double. Typically, also, it has a second thumb valve, affecting the Bb side only, for hand stopping or A length.
Triple horns are expensive and still rare: I have only ever seen one. They usually combine the three lengths already mentioned: F, Bb and F alto, but F, Bb and Eb alto horns are also available. They tend to be heavy, and to minimise this problem they are typically made as a full double F and Bb with a compensating F alto. Compensating F and Bb with full double or compensating F or Eb alto would also be possible, but I don't know whether anyone makes one.
I have spent some time thinking how I could add a sixth valve to my Bb/F alto horn to make the Bb side equivalent to the five-valve single described in the first paragraph above. This would allow unorthodox fingerings to give nearly all the lengths available from a triple horn. The long ones are desirable to give a better sound to the low notes that are typically required only in parts for horns 2 and 4 in a section.
The original 19th C valves were of widely varying quality, and were attacked by the critics of the time for ruining the tone of the instrument. Valves are now much refined, and degrade the sound minimally. However, there is a natural variation of tone with length of tube that may be exploited but must be controlled. Many teachers insist that a beginner should use the F horn for the middle register, where the horn sound is most characteristic, and work to be able produce a similar sound in the upper register, where the shorter Bb and F alto sides are used for greater security. In the lower register, where a 2nd or 4th horn may be part of a three- or four-part chord, appropriate volume and exact tuning may be more important than beautiful sound, and a shorter length of tubing may provide these.
Complicated as the above may appear, it well short of covering all possible configurations of valves and tubing that give satisfactory orchestral horns.
many thanks for the explanation kenm, really opened my knowledge about the horn 
^^
^^
Wowee! Mine too! 
Yes they can. The double/triple thing just changes the key.
My horn is a double horn. It's in F, so if i play a C it plays concert F, etc.
But i have a thumb valve, which when held in changes the key of my horn to Bb (This is generally used because it's harder to pitch higher notes because the fingerings are all the same).
Triple horns have an extra thumb valve and allow you to change your horn to a different key.
QUOTE
and also if a horn player started learn a single horn, can he/she play the double and triple horns?
Yes they can. The double/triple thing just changes the key.
My horn is a double horn. It's in F, so if i play a C it plays concert F, etc.
But i have a thumb valve, which when held in changes the key of my horn to Bb (This is generally used because it's harder to pitch higher notes because the fingerings are all the same).
Triple horns have an extra thumb valve and allow you to change your horn to a different key.
I just thought of a refinement to my comments about using a short tube for low notes.
Horn design is well understood nowadays, but there are certain fundamentals, both of acoustics and of practical engineering, that will always constrain the designer. One is that however many different lengths of tubing are introduced by current designs of finger valve, they are all parallel bore. On some Paxman instruments the change from F to Bb involves two rotary valves of different bores, so that both sets of tubing are tapered. In either case, insertion of a longer piece of tube changes the overall acoustic nature of the instrument. The nature of the standing wave inside a brass or reed instrument is very similar to what could be produced by an external driver if the mouthpiece end were closed. Ideal shapes that resonate at harmonic frequency ratios are the closed cone and the open parallel tube. It is possible to design a shape with taper at both ends and parallel tubing in the middle that provides closely similar ratios to the cone. However, if the length of parallel tubing between the tapered portions is changed, the frequency ratios will be changed also. Designers usually aim real horns to have a shape where the resonant frequencies are nearest to the harmonic ratios when the overall length is intermediate between the extremes e.g. at or near the length of the open F horn on a double horn in F and Bb. Extra tubing (fingers down on the F horn) then changes the ratios between resonances a small distance towards those of a closed parallel tube (in which the ratio of the two lowest resonant frequencies is 3/1), i.e. the resonances move apart. When you use the shorter side of your double horn without depressing the third finger valve, the parallel portion is shorter than the optimum and the resonances move closer. Since the horn is usually fingered in such a way that the shorter side takes over from the longer side at the top of the middle register, tuning slides are usually adjusted to give identical tuning on the two sides at or near the note where the transition takes place e.g treble clef C space written note (concert F), and this results in the lower resonances on the short side being sharper than optimum. If you use the open Bb horn for written F below middle C, you must listen carefully and lip the note down to the correct pitch.
Note that the only common reed instruments with a parallel bore are those of the clarinet family, which overblows at the twelfth. (The fingering systems of crumhorns and rackets, older parallel bore reed instruments, do not involve overblowing.) This effect is commonly described as being caused by the loss of the even resonances of the harmonic series, but this is misleading. If you had a reed instrument made of rubber with a mechanism that could move it gradually from a conical bore to a parallel one, the ratio of the two lowest resonant frequencies would start near 2 and gradually move to 3. You can try some intermediate points on this experiment by removing a tuning slide from a horn and playing from the mouthpiece up to the open end, thus losing the effect of the bell but keeping that of the tapered mouthpipe. I just tried this on mine and centred on three resonances. The second and third were a perfect 11th (octave + 4th) and a minor 16th (two octaves + semitone) above the first. The frequencies are in the approximate ratios 12:32:51. As I expected, these are somewhat less than the ratios for a parallel closed tube, which are 1:3:5, but far from the harmonic ratios, 1:2:3. There is no natural law that says that the resonant series must be harmonic, just clever and persistent designers who make them very nearly so on the instruments we play.
Horn design is well understood nowadays, but there are certain fundamentals, both of acoustics and of practical engineering, that will always constrain the designer. One is that however many different lengths of tubing are introduced by current designs of finger valve, they are all parallel bore. On some Paxman instruments the change from F to Bb involves two rotary valves of different bores, so that both sets of tubing are tapered. In either case, insertion of a longer piece of tube changes the overall acoustic nature of the instrument. The nature of the standing wave inside a brass or reed instrument is very similar to what could be produced by an external driver if the mouthpiece end were closed. Ideal shapes that resonate at harmonic frequency ratios are the closed cone and the open parallel tube. It is possible to design a shape with taper at both ends and parallel tubing in the middle that provides closely similar ratios to the cone. However, if the length of parallel tubing between the tapered portions is changed, the frequency ratios will be changed also. Designers usually aim real horns to have a shape where the resonant frequencies are nearest to the harmonic ratios when the overall length is intermediate between the extremes e.g. at or near the length of the open F horn on a double horn in F and Bb. Extra tubing (fingers down on the F horn) then changes the ratios between resonances a small distance towards those of a closed parallel tube (in which the ratio of the two lowest resonant frequencies is 3/1), i.e. the resonances move apart. When you use the shorter side of your double horn without depressing the third finger valve, the parallel portion is shorter than the optimum and the resonances move closer. Since the horn is usually fingered in such a way that the shorter side takes over from the longer side at the top of the middle register, tuning slides are usually adjusted to give identical tuning on the two sides at or near the note where the transition takes place e.g treble clef C space written note (concert F), and this results in the lower resonances on the short side being sharper than optimum. If you use the open Bb horn for written F below middle C, you must listen carefully and lip the note down to the correct pitch.
Note that the only common reed instruments with a parallel bore are those of the clarinet family, which overblows at the twelfth. (The fingering systems of crumhorns and rackets, older parallel bore reed instruments, do not involve overblowing.) This effect is commonly described as being caused by the loss of the even resonances of the harmonic series, but this is misleading. If you had a reed instrument made of rubber with a mechanism that could move it gradually from a conical bore to a parallel one, the ratio of the two lowest resonant frequencies would start near 2 and gradually move to 3. You can try some intermediate points on this experiment by removing a tuning slide from a horn and playing from the mouthpiece up to the open end, thus losing the effect of the bell but keeping that of the tapered mouthpipe. I just tried this on mine and centred on three resonances. The second and third were a perfect 11th (octave + 4th) and a minor 16th (two octaves + semitone) above the first. The frequencies are in the approximate ratios 12:32:51. As I expected, these are somewhat less than the ratios for a parallel closed tube, which are 1:3:5, but far from the harmonic ratios, 1:2:3. There is no natural law that says that the resonant series must be harmonic, just clever and persistent designers who make them very nearly so on the instruments we play.
QUOTE
Yes they can. The double/triple thing just changes the key.
oh i see, i thought that all of them have different fingerings
Well, i've learned that when i hold in the Bb key i still have to think of my instrument in F.
So if i want to play the C sharp two above middle C, to get my pitching perfect i hold in the thumb valve and valves 2+3, the fingering for G sharp (For the Bb) (But i think of it as C sharp)
But Gsharp for Bb instruments is the same note as C sharp for F instruments.
So if i want to play the C sharp two above middle C, to get my pitching perfect i hold in the thumb valve and valves 2+3, the fingering for G sharp (For the Bb) (But i think of it as C sharp)
But Gsharp for Bb instruments is the same note as C sharp for F instruments.
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