Hello everyone, it's beeen agggggeeeees since I've been on here. I have had a look to check there's no similar threads but didn't find any.

Might sound a silly questin but can you change the soun dof your voice. I hate my speaking voice for a start and my singing voice sound similar to it and I really really hate listening to myself which is pretty rubbish when you want to audition for musical theatre courses.

Thanks in due course Musicbox

Maybe it would be better then to get a third party opinion. PM me, and I will send you my email address. I am happy to listen to any mp3 recording that is emailed to me. I will then email you back my professional opinion.


I listen to lots of young singers. It is hard to judge how your own voice really sounds, thats why people get lessons. I quite like the sound of my singing voice now, but can appreciate where you are coming from.

I can also give you pointers based on what I hear over how I believe you can improve, so you get to the stage you like your own voice.

However it is one thing others telling you that you you have a beautiful voice, and another you appreciating its merits. I still listen to myself and criticise over-harshly, which is why it is far more enjoyable to listen to when I'm doing something else rather than concentrating on it hard.

The one which really got me was when I did a concert after the end of my first year, I heard the recording, and could not believe it was me. I wondered what the person with the recording equiptment had done to make it sound so nice, either that, or they'd recorded another Soprano and swapped the recording before I heard it. I could not believe it was me, as I didn't think I could sing that well.

I hate my speaking voice because it is too high, but that's improved with age.

Be heartened Musicbox, beauty is in the ear of the beholder, and you are not your audience.

Hi Musicbox, and welcome back

It's not a silly question at all. In fact I think it's probably a more fundamental point than most people realise.

There's a lot of assumption out in the world that the sound you hear when any trained singer sings is simply the sound they're born with and that if you aren't born with that sound then you're no good at singing and that's the end of it.

However, that's not the case. It is possible to change the sound of your voice. That is, in effect, what everyone who takes singing lessons does. For what it's worth, the reason I started having singing lessons was exactly because I didn't like the sound of my voice!

And that, in fact, is what I'd suggest to you. Find a singing teacher, and get their help in enabling you to make the very best you can of your voice. Tell them of your audition plans and get them to help you prepare.

As for liking (or otherwise) the sound of your own voice - from my experience both as a learner and a teacher, I'd say it takes quite some time, and quite some support from one's teacher, before that happens. Everyone finds things in their own sound that they have issues with, the challenge is to accept that the blemishes you hear are not the main thing that others will hear.

Excellent advice!

Don't forget that your voice probably hasn't fully-matured either. I found that when I was younger my voice was terribly dull and now it has naturally developed into something which is much better in my opinion.

Thanks for you replies sorry I have only just got back to you.
I spoke to my singing teacher and she said your voice will change with maturity and I suppose the best thing really is just to accept it.
I dont' actually have any recordings of myself at the momnt jod, but if I do get any I will PM them if that's okay.

Thanks again x

I HATE my voice too. I would swear i'm an absolutely terrible singer but then i know i can't be cause i get distinctions in my exams, and am doing grade 7 next term :S
I looove opera and would love to do that but i sound like a little kid (im 17), i always get comments on how 'sweet' my voice is, even from examiners, but that's exactly what i DON'T want to sound like! It suits me as i'm only like 5ft, etc. but i don't want to sound 'sweet', i wanna sound good!

I end up wasting time in lessons cause i'm constantly stopping in the middle of songs and complaining about how rubbish i sound, etc. and i'm worried i must be annoying my teacher by now It just feels like the sound won't come out and i sing really quietly.
I never ever ever sing infront of anyone except my singing teacher, no matter what, but dared to sing with my music teacher the other day and i sounded soooooo awful bad idea!! But as much as i adore singing, it feels like i'm wasting my time and money on all these singing lessons, exams, and practise, when i don't think i'd ever let anyone be able to hear my voice >_<

If you can't make the sounds you want, ffliwt, and your teacher isn't showing you how to make them in an easy and healthy fashion, I'd suggest a change of teacher - the teacher's job is to take you towards your goals, not theirs and if you want to sound a certain way and they won't, or can't, show you how to sound like that then your money would be better spend elsewhere with a teacher who can give you an operatic, or dramatic, or meatier or whatever sound.

If the sound isn't coming out, it's likely due to constriction happening somewhere, or an incorrect use of the larynx (volume and 'meat' comes from the mass in the vocal folds, not the air) - if you teacher hasn't picked up on these things and isn't helping you correct them to move towards your sound ideal, move on!

Allan, I have to disagree here. I think it is very harsh to suggest a change of teacher without even knowing their methodology or the student's voice (the latter I don't know of course). It is always a relationship that can be ruined by both sides - if the student is constantly too self-conscious in an unconstructive way, it is very hard for the teacher to help progressing - self-sabotage is one of the biggest problems in singing lessons. Not that I am suggesting that ffliwt is like that, but "constantly stopping in the middle of a song" and thinking "how rubbish one is" does not exactly help the teacher to do their work properly either, so I find the remark to change teachers slightly unfair ...
Again, please don't get me wrong here ffliwt, but you should trust your teacher and stop sabotaging yourself with constant self-doubt. However, if you have the feeling you are not getting taught properly or the teacher does not really care about your issues, it is a different matter. Did you ever have a chat about your problems with your teacher?

It is true - a singing teacher should help the student to find their own voice and sing in a style they wish to sing in. For this reason, I wouldn't teach someone who wants to sing rock a classical mix/placement. But if someone chooses classical, there are (thankfully!) so many different voicetypes that there is a place for EVERYONE. Voices are individual, physiology is as well (at least to a certain extent, I am of course not talking about the basics here, hopefully everyone who sings will have a larynx ), and voices that are naturally sweeter DO exist - no matter if their owner likes it or not. It is possible of course to get a bit more "oomph", but always in a way that still matches the voice. Instead of trying to sound LIKE someone or something and working from there, we should always aim for sounding like ourselves, whatever that means in the individual case.

I also object to the fact of trying to push a young voice of 17!!! into dramatic sound or repertoire - it doesn't matter if they want to sound like Maria Callas, the voice needs time to develop into that direction (sometimes it never will), and if you ever sang unamplified with and over a symphonic orchestra, you will know what I mean (I did, and it's pretty hard work ). Being almost 35 now, I finally feel my voice is starting to mature. Lighter voices normally mature earlier than heavier voices, but as Melchior (I think it was) once said: "Always sing with your interest, never with your capital." It is NOT helpful to rip a young voice open and let it sing dramatic repertoire way before time ...
I feel I have a responsibility as a voice teacher, and sometimes what the student wants is not the best and healthiest option, and it is my job as their teacher to take care and, if necessary, to object. If they knew everything and what is best for them and how to achieve it, they probably wouldn't have to get singing lessons in the first place ...

This again doesn't mean I don't respect the student's wishes (I even teach how to growl and grunt healthily ), but if the voice is still immature and needs time to develop, then so be it, and this needs adequate measures, which in turn can mean that some things are not on (yet) ...

Well, Mezzo, we can agree to disagree!

I have the view that the teacher should not judge the sound the student wishes to make, but show them how to make it healthily and without any wear on the voice. I don't believe that 'sound ideal' based methods are effective or particularly healthy - forcing the student to make a particular sound (especially if it's not the sound they're looking for) has no useful purpose at all. There are no sounds, in my opinion, that are better or more desirable - only healthy ones and unhealthy ones.

I also hold the view that the student should feel a dramatic change after every session, otherwise they are with the wrong person.

I agree, however, that the student can ruin things as well by riddling themselves with self-doubt, but then as teachers it's our job to foster a relationship that isn't unhealthy and based upon constant need for the teacher's approval before making a sound - if we do this, we empower the student to take their own voice where they want and fix their own problems.

My students build a technical tool box that enables them to fix their own issues when they can't see me for some time and whilst I remain available for quick consultations by phone etc if they need them, the majority are pretty good at fixing their own problems. I never encourage any unhealthy sounds, but then we've learnt so much about the voice that there are very few unhealthy sounds left. It's no more damaging, we know now, to screech, distort, scream and saturate the voice than it is to sing opera - as long as it's done correctly. I firmly believe that many teachers object to these techniques because they don't understand them and that - and I'm not talking about you at all here - they use the 'voice isn't ready' card as a way of giving a veneer of authority to their inability to teach that particular sound.

I agree too about not pushing a voice - but then if we're doing it right, we're never pushing the voice irrespective of age, even when we belt. There's no physical benefit to encouraging light, thin fold singing in the belief that the voice isn't ready for anything else (especially when the voice already uses other configurations on a daily basis) - yet the myth persists in the traditional teaching world that this is somehow healthier. If you couple it with the slightly lower larynx that many classical purists so cherish, then you have a voice quality that is potentially harmful if sung with too low a volume.

I totally respect you as a teacher and enjoy your interventions on the board - I also find that we tend to have similar views on a lot of things, so I'm not saying you're wrong, just explaining my view more fully - I maintain that if you're not feeling a big difference after the first hour, don't waste your money, and if you're not going where you want vocally and the teacher isn't showing you the way (of course you may get lost by yourself, but the teacher can put you back on the right path the next time they see you) - then you've got the wrong guide.

Allan

I always create some kind of debate with every post, i don't know how i manage it

My teacher knows what i'd like to sing and is trying to help me, though even she said my voice can sound a bit childish. If i think really REALLY carefully about it while i'm singing, i can sort of fix it. *shrugs*
I totally agree that 17 is too young to be pushing my voice - i wouldn't expect to be singing dramatic repertoire or anything for yeaaars, i was just saying what stuff i like, and that my voice just sounds like a 10 year olds

Right, that's ok then if your teacher is aware and is trying to help you. I'd still suggest that some sort of results should be appearing by now, though - to make your voice sound more powerful just requires a change of parameter, so the result should be almost instantaneous.

Remember, also, that even when singing dramatic rep you are NOT pushing if you're doing it right.

No harm done, in the end that's what keeps discussions interesting


Completely agree as long as the individual voice and type/character is respected. Even if someone chooses to sing rock, there is more than one way of doing it appropriately and, above all, genuinely, meaning that it matches the person ...


I only partly agree here. Sometimes, the body- and vocal awareness of the person has to be nurtured first. Many students thankfully do not need any help in that department - as many sadly do. As long as self-reflexion and a feeling for the own body are completely out of place, the student will need help in that department first (but it DOES work - there are no hopeless cases, just some who need longer ).


Very well said, but I'd even like to take it a step further. It is not our job as singing teachers to be a psychologist, but it IS our job to know about the psychological load that sometimes can make work very hard. That's the reason why I can only recommend to also think of professional development in this direction, it helps a lot to understand that students are not "sound-machines", and that not every vocal problem can be solved immediately if it has a sort of psychological background (and this is not as rare as some of us might like to think). There are different ways to address these problems of course ...


That problem is again easily solved - let your teacher demonstrate if you are not sure they can really use the style you are looking for. If they can't, find another, end of. Example: It is no use (and it is even harmful) to try to learn belting from a person who has never really belted and e.g. tries to teach it with an extremely lowered larynx. Rule of thumb: Always learn with a teacher who knows and uses the style you want to sing in and does it healthily (if they have a croaky speaking voice or nasty raspy sounds while singing that are not stylised, I would be very wary, because then their sound production is normally not healthy).
The same applies to classical singing. If the teacher cannot really sing, hands off. They will usually pass on their own harmful technique (if they pass on anything that is) ...
The only exception from that rule is voicetype: If a low alto has to demonstrate a high soprano aria, of course she will not sound as great as in her own repertoire. But this rule applies less in contemporary repertoire, because the range we move in is (normally) not that extreme, a few exceptions aside ...

Yup, there we agree totally !

FWIW I have been singing since 1964 as a teacher and performer and actor
I don't like it much but the audience disagree so I go with the flow

I think that this is one of the most disturbing posts that I have ever read here. Quick-fix methods and techniques are really not the way to go. If a seventeen year old pupil of mine was wanting to sing opera and had what had been described by examiners as a sweet voice then I would find some suitable repertoire for her, and there is plenty to be found. Caccini, Purcell, some of Galatea's arias, Gluck etc, I would let a voice grow and develop naturally and would put all of the basics in place slowly but surely, and do, all of the time with my students of whatever age,
If someone wants an instant operatic voice then they could be shown how to do it of course but I would not want to be the one to try to correct it in five years time.
If technique could be learnt in a couple of lessons the world would be full to bursting with wonderful voices.

I agree - it's much better to find suitable repertoire for a young voice and let it mature naturally. There have been many cases where the singer has had to either retire from the type of singing they were doing due to trying to do too much too soon (e.g. Charlotte Church), or take a step back because they tackled too heavy repertoire too soon (e.g. Amanda Roocroft). Voices are precious and cannot be changed overnight. I'm worried that Allan may inadvertantly be causing people to expect too much from each singing lesson. From my experience even adults take time for their voice to start to "sing" if they start off with small or thin voices. Around a year to eighteen months is the average I find. Then it's not a one-minute-wonder that has to be reminded every lesson, but a safe, steady, never-look-back process.
Voices cannot change without all the technique being in place, including breathing, posture, support, placement, energy. It's a lot for people to take in at once. A bit like learning to change gear in a car - "Wot, AND steer it?" It is never absolutely smooth until everything is right at the same time.
I also do not use technical language in my teaching, except for advanced students, and then not always - it's perfectly possible to teach many styles successfully without mentioning larynx positions etc., especially to beginners. I'm not knocking you at all Allan, your knowledge is exemplary - I just think that it makes things unnecessarily complicated for students. Yes, WE need to know these things, but it's like talking about flywheels, pressure plates and differential gears to someone learning to drive - not necessary to get the job done - just my opinion. But please continue to post these things - I find it fascinating and I'm sure others do as well. Just making the point that some students might be baffled with all the jargon!

I didn't want an instantanious operatic voice
I only meant that's the kind of thing i'd like to work towards, not how i want to be singing right this minute

I think there's a vocabulary problem, here, Petrat.

Technique takes instant effect if it's taught properly. I'm not suggesting that a person's voice will mature instantly into an older person's voice, but that young voice can be taught to sound operatic and that change should be instant or quasi-instant. There's nothing disturbing about it - you just put the right things in the right places. It's a fair bit healthier than letting the voice try to manage it on its own.

I also have a problem with the idea that singing is natural or that we can allow the voice to develop naturally - singing is not a natural act and the belief that allowing someone to sing 'as nature intended' is tautological - nature didn't intend as several reserachers have proven (Estill, ormezzano, Sundberg, Chalfin to cite a few).

I also don't like the idea that we will attempt to 'allow the voice' to decide how it will sound by letting it mature into the sound. The voice at the level of the vocal folds is simply a buzz-like sound. The rest is done by the larynx cartilages and the vocal tract - there is so much we can do to make changes to the sound in this area - and totally without danger - that I think it's inefficient and one-sided to allow the body to decide upon a setting in time. Why not show the student what their voice can do, and how to make it happen?

Sure, if you go down the 'natural' route as many teachers do, the student eventually ends up getting it right because they learn from the teacher and slowly learn to filter those sounds and sensations that the teacher recognises as being acceptable from those that are rejected. But this is a less efficient version of the daily lesson model from the old conservatorium system where the student has to copy the teacher and take advice, but has daily lessons to ensure progress is good. In the current system, lessons are once a week or so and in between the student just has to hope they don't go backwards. They also generally only end up with one sound in this approach - the sound that their teacher gives them. Why shouldn't opera singers know how to sing heavy metal too ? There's no danger in it.

Simple reverse engineering can handle this problem in a modern way - if such and such a sound is arrived at after X number of years in singing and we can decompose that sound into its basic elements, then we can teach the sound element by element in a matter of hours. The student then gets an instant result and also has tangible ways to practise - if they lose it, they can find it again.

I know many people don't like the idea of demystifying the voice (it seems, and I include myself in this, that singers are somewhat more precious about their instruments than other instrumentalists and that we revel in the mystery of it all somewhat) - but we know how it works now, we understand things we didn't know fifty years ago, which enable us to teach more efficiently, more quickly and in a much healthier manner.

I find it, as do my students, liberating rather than disturbing.

As for technique being learnt in a couple of lessons - well, most of it can be taught in a few sessions. The voice is currently recognised as having around 16 (or 18 depending on who you believe) core components. Each of these can be controlled independently and then blended together to make various core sounds, which can then be blended and filtered to create finished sounds covering every sung sound in existence. In a few months of regular teaching, all of this should be down. After that begins the repertoire.

The world isn't currently bursting with wonderful voices, in my opinion, because the classical model works excellently for a very small portion of people - for the rest it fails miserably and leaves them demotivated. Many teachers of this school will say things like 'Oh, that's just your voice dear - it's light and won't ever sound dramatic' or 'that's just your voice dear, it doesn't have much carrying power' etc - this is, in my opinion, the teacher's way of fobbing a problem they cannot solve off onto the student. All voices can sound dramatic, all voices can sound sweet, all voices can carry - just as they can all scream, cry, shout and whisper.

Of course, each of us believes fervently in what we teach - we would be pretty rubbish teachers if we didn't, so let's view the difference of opinion as stimulating rather than argumentative - it may push us to learn new things.

AnnC - thanks for your post - I can see why you'd think that the vocab can be confusing, but when I'm teaching it to students, I always give them an audio cue (you can find this configuration by making this sound), a visual cue (look what happens when do this) and a sensory cue (it feels like this) so that, even though they understand the science, each learning style is catered for.

Allan

Same-I don't like singing in front of anyone else particularly my parents-not because I think they will think it is bad because I just find it embarrasing whereas I don't mind them listeingt o my piano or flute playing at all.

I'm EXACTLY the same! I only sing when they're out.