I watched a mock exam at the AB piano seminar yesterday. We all had to give marks and I came out a little bit harsher than the real examiner. It got me thinking....

I have a good number of pre-grade 1 students, some of whom have been struggling along for years now. I tend to be pretty fussy and expect them to get things absolutely right for an exam. Perhaps I'm being too harsh and holding back some of them from taking exams that they could pass. Maybe they won't ever be able to play completely to my satisfaction, but I should let them go ahead and do exams if they want to. I don't want to risk someone failing, because it is a horrid experience, but perhaps I have been setting the benchmark a bit too high.

Anyone else been through similar difficulties? I'm torn between maintaining high standards and being realistic about my students' capabilities. I'm beginning to feel that I am holding them back..

How can anybody struggle along for years at a pre-grade 1 level?

Perhaps they should be encouraged to take up football instead!

Doing exams certainly does seem to give a lot of them a real boost, so perhaps I need to be a bit braver! In my quest to be thorough and instill good technique etc, I think I have probably missed the point with some of these children. I do use the various pre-grade 1 exams that are available (LCM, Rockschool debit, AB prep test).

HG - do you teach? You would be amazed how long some kids take to grasp the basics - mainly because they do very little practice. I have indeed encouraged some of them to look elsewhere for their fulfillment. However, there are also some who are making progress, albeit snail-like and they will one day take grade 1 (is there a record for time taken to get to grade 1, I wonder?!)

Hmmm. Tough one, because as teachers we want to be both positive and demanding. I'd want to be sure I wasn't allowing students to experience a long drawn out feeling of failure just to avoid the short sharp shock kind. But I'm sure as a great teacher you litter the paths of your "strugglers" with small successes along the way.

If you want encouragement to take the odd risk, then as others have said here before, students can pull great stunts out of the bag in the run up to an exam.

By the way I probably marked rather like you at the seminar - I think I failed little Timothy with a mark of about 94...

This reminds me of a girl I had who did struggle pre-grade 1 for quite a while. Eventually I went for a "make or break" approach and decided that we were going to do grade 1. Suddenly she was a different child! She practised, she became really keen and remains one of my most motivated pupils - she is coming up to grade 4 now.
I think you do just have to go for it sometimes. I have had pupils fail - it's just a fact of life - you can't do it for them. Either they will pull their socks up or possibly realise that the piano is not for them. Either way is better I would have thought than having them just hanging around pre-grade 1 forever

Yes, I do teach, although I'm fortunate to be able to say that all my teaching nowadays is in the intermediate-advanced category. The only way that I would see myself considering taking on beginners nowadays would be as a favour for a friend.

However, when I used to take on beginners, if I had a slow learner or somebody not willing to put in the work required to learn, I would encourage them to move on to something else. With the talented ones, I would never enter them for grade examinations until they were at the required standard and I've been very fortunate never to have anybody pass with less than a merit. I realise that this is the exception, and that I am fortunate indeed.

I agree with Carol! I think there are lots of people in the world who are rendered almost incapable of doing anything without a clear goal. I find my little student concerts are a good chance to see who will leap into action when presented with a deadline. 99% of kids will practise for it because they want to look good in front of their friends. Often the ones who are reluctant practisers suddenly discovered that they enjoy improving! The same can be said of exams and possibly more so, as even an unmusical parent understands the concept of an exam and will try to help the child to work towards it.

Go for it Sue! Maybe even with the prep test or similar with anyone you feel would struggle to do grade 1.

HG, I agree with the others, some kids can spend years floating around in pre-grade 1 pieces at the piano. But it can be very valuable time as you can build a proper foundation for the future before leaping onto the exam treadmill. Most of mine take a pre grade one exam at the end of their 3rd year by which time it only takes them a few months to prepare, rather than the whole year as I have seen other teachers do. Rushing into exams too early surely means that they take over and you don't ever get to do rep?

I agree with your last sentence entirely. My teaching is always focussed on technique and repertoire, and I have only used grade examinations where extra motivation to reach a specific goal was deemed desirable, or when a parent or child wanted to have a piece of paper to show.

I always do 'mock' exams with mine before the real things and I too find that i always mark slightly harshly (generally between 5 and 15 points less). This is partly due to higher standards (examiner friends say you'd be amazed quite how weak some candidates are), partly to give myself peace of mind and partly because i know what some of them are capable of (it 'annoys' me if they haven't made the effort and got any better).

But I like to get them going with exams, I find it makes a big difference. Not that the exam is the be all and end all but it's a milestone and everybody, in my experience, rises to challenge, more or less.

I think, in general, a child should be ready for the Prep test after 2 years and for Grade 1 a year later. Many are a lot quicker but I've never had anyone slower than that (and have some pretty average children as well as some who take to it a lot easier) and out of my ten entries last summer had 8 merits and distinctions and 2 good passes.

However, I do love beginners, I want everyone to play to the best of their ability and think that 'Old MacDonald' played up-beat and in time is worth exactly the same as some Grade 4 Beethoven Bagatelle or Grade 8 Sonata.

Overall, I would say: go for it! Your kids are almost certainly better than you think, they'll put in that extra effort knowing there's a definite goal and will feel proud of themselves afterwards and realise that they are capable of more than they thought.

I find this a very interesting comment.
We're told by the Board that the Prep Test is designed for students who have been playing for 6 - 9 months. I've always thought this was a tad optimistic! Most of mine who take PT have been learning for around 18 months and last week I had a student taking it who has been playing for more than 2 years. I know that when I showed her parents the AB info on PT, they will have realised that their daughter was taking it much later than suggested, although they haven't said anything. The girl in question is a slow learner, but is delightful to teach and was thrilled that I thought she was ready for 'an exam'.

I agrree with you Jenny - I think 6-9 months is certainly optimistic. Obviously, it depends what age they start but I don't think your average 7 year-old would have a hope of being anywhere near ready in 6 months.

Where I live there are only two exam sessions per year and so it's more difficult to guage - I like the Prep system because of the free choice piece - for the more able pupils we choose a fairly tricky piece (i.e. harder than the two sample ones), for the others we go for something far more manageable.

I too don't like to rush them too much right at ths start. One talented youngster did her Prep exam after a year and then skipped Grade 1 and got 128 in Grade 2 the year after. In tems of confidence and basics she was better equipped to deal with it. My older beginners also tend to be a bit quicker which is normal, I guess. However, plenty take 18-24 months for their Prep test and I think that's just fine.

I took on a pupil in April who had received lessons from the same teacher for 4 years. He had been given Grade 1 books, but never the encouragement needed from the teacher that he might actually pass.

After arriving in my studio looking as if my piano might eat me, I was really pleased with his progress, and we decided to go for it. It was a "make or break" decision, and even 8 days earlier I was not convinced.

However, he really worked like stink during that week and passed with 103. That was simply with gentle encouragement between April and November. It may not be the highest pass in the world, but I am delighted for him, as he has now proven to himself that after 4 years of a teacher not believing in him, he can achieve.

We are now going to concentrate on learning some repertoire between Grades 1 and 2, doing some technical work, and getting scales going in similar motion, so that when the time comes to buy another book of exam music it is a less daunting prospect.

Rushing into exams too early surely means that they take over and you don't ever get to do rep?

It certainly can do this - exam preparation turns into the only time that the pupil is motivated to do any proper practice. So there always seems good reason to start work on the next one and you perhaps stagger through the first three grades only to find that eventually gaps start to open up and suddenly the next exam is not yet a possibility and the pupil is left without that particular goal.

It is never an easy one, this. I think most of us with a bit of experience have a 'feel' for when a pupil is ready to tackle the first exam with confidence. Of course since every pupil is different, there are always exceptions, and also factors outside our control (sometimes even outside our knowledge) which have a bearing - which are good reasons why having an expected time-scale doesn't work and often only adds stress and perhaps anxiety for the teacher. A lot of good points have already been made. Looking back to when I was first teaching, I probably entered quite a few candidates a bit too soon. I tend to think these days that a more comfortable pass may in most cases be more of a boost than a bare scrape will.

The thing the OP mentioned about having a number of pre-grade one pupils who'd been learning for some years is interesting - I find this goes almost in cycles. 4 or 5 years ago I had a bunch who fitted this description. Looking back most of them never did make grade 1, or if they made it they only just made it and didn't get any further. I had one pair of sisters who could not identify C D and E on the keyboard after a term, for eg. I can think of half a dozen who would not have attempted grade one during the time I taught them.

Contrasted with the present, I now seem to have a great bunch of pupils who are making really good progress, one or two who have whizzed through the early stages and got past grade one in a relatively short time, and almost no-one that I feel is making slow headway. In fact I have been puzzling for about a term over the difference and can find no particular reason for it.

If I had been new to teaching at that time I would of course put it down to improved teaching, but although there are bound to be differences in the way I sometimes do things, I wasn't totally clueless then and I don't think I can take much of the credit for the current good progress all round - I feel I can put it mainly down to a different bunch of early-graders.

With reference to the 'mock' exam - I do tend to mark slightly low. There is no point in raising hopes when it might easily go less well on the day. As long as the result is a pass so as not to discourage ..... I think the exam 'feel' is more useful than the actual mark anyway - unless the mark is so dire that you need to use it as reason to postpone the exam. Actual examiners' marking has seemed to vary quite a bit over the past 2-3 years so perhaps as a result I am cautious.

I really have gone on longer than I intended when I started writing this. Apologies to the OP - the discussion has widened a bit. I think what I'm saying is follow your instincts -especially if you have been teaching a while and have some experience of putting pupils in for exams.

I have a two or three who have been struggling at pre-grade one level for some time - could even be nearly three years! It does take some students a very long time to reach just a very basic level, but I would never suggest they give up!

Thanks for your comments everyone. I think maybe I started off with a bunch of really slow starters all together - certainly there have been others who got on much more quickly since, and even though I'm relatively inexperienced, I have had quite a few good results from those who have managed to make it to an exam (all merits/distinctions - which in itself suggests that I am being a bit too selective).

I think I will try putting everyone forward for an exam next term, at a level that seems appropriate, and see what happens. No doubt some will surprise me, others may decide to call it a day, but at least they will have had a chance to give it a go.

*girds teacherly loins*

I was one of these people- not so much struggling but, how should i put it, not inspired to practice, not encouraged in lessons (i'm sure no one on here makes pupils feel like this- to put it into perspective, i spent 12lessons learning how to stand, without even touching a flute- whilst i know posture is important, 3 months without even practicing the stance with a flute in hand was a bit ridiculous) and as a result in 2 1/2 years i was still pre grade one, watching my friends being entered...

then i got a new teacher, and he entered me for my grade 1 in the next term (distinction), then grade 3 the following year (merit), and 4 the year after (distinction). I'm now fully inspired to practice, and am a grade ahead of those who were originally ahead of me.

I believe that this change in teachers attitude changed my inspiration to practice and now i'm looking to do grade 6 in either A or B session 09, and grade 8 the following year, so whereas before I was held back now I'm properly enjoying the challenges and being able to have set goals made all the difference in my inspiration to practice.

I think it's a 2 way thing, the teacher needs to inspire and encourage so that the pupil feels inspired enough to practice. I think if my teacher asked me for scales (esp. B major) 6 times in a lesson every week- yes i may learn it till i'm blue, but i won't be inspired and as a result will limit my own progress.

In a way, it all comes down to what we think we're doing, as teachers. I've never been that happy to simply provide a half hour's diversion every week; I enjoy what I do, but I struggle with maintaining enthusiasm with pupils who don't have enough enthusiasm themselves to put in enough effort at home to improve their standard. I don't ask for miracles; just for things to move forward at some level or another, so that I'm not forever looking for repertoire for them that never increases in difficulty, or in musicality requirements. We all have our forte as teachers and some will be happy to play musical games, increase musical awareness, etc, but I'm simply not! They can expect a lot from me - but only if they're prepared to work themselves, and if they're not, I'm afraid I'm with Holz Gedeckt in that I'm inclined to suggest to the parents that they provide an alternative weekly activity for the child. Exams are not the be-all and end-all; some need a goal and some don't, and it's a skill in itself identifying which is which, but I find it very hard to deal with stagnation.

Thank you, Dulciana. I wish I had put it as eloquently as you.

but I find it very hard to deal with stagnation

yes, I would identify with this, and I do think there are cases where we as teachers are justified in making the suggestion that xxx instrument may not be the ideal activity for a particular child. It's not a stance which I take hastily or without much consideration.

I personally have two criteria -

1) virtual lack of progress for about six months

2) no spark of interest from the pupil.

The first I can sometimes live with. I measure it in terms of pieces completed - and I count up with the pupil's help during a lesson: we look back at dates and assess what has been achieved in the past term or two. All done quite kindly and in the spirit of 'I was a little bit surprised when I looked back and I thought you might be surprised too'. Sometimes this + some new material is all that is needed to help a pupil pick up again. Otherwise the number of pieces completed in the past half year will be clear on the next report, and this helps pave the way for a chat with mum or dad, if that hasn't already happened.

2) is what really unsettles me, and if after my best efforts both 1) and 2) are the case I do usually feel it's time to call time.

What it comes down to is this - I will not be instrumental (no pun!) in putting a child off music, and I point out that in cases where the child is clearly not enjoying lessons, this is what we are effectively risking.

I agree with MaggieMay about the 'no spark of interest' - this is a real killer for me.

I have plenty of children who don't practise as much as they should, especially little ones, but this can change (exams, concerts etc. are one way to promote this). I do 45 minutes lessons and if they're good, positive lessons and 'some' playing is being done at home, then this is enough to progress and I feel I'm doing something worthwhile.

But the pupils where I feel I'm having to jump through hoops and drag them along by their hair, or they're doing me the favour in being there - that doesn't work. I've only had three but all have been quietly and diplomatically 'removed'.

I had a fairly frank conversation with mother of one of the strugglers last night, having given her some grade 1 pieces to look at. After 5 years of lessons (not all with me) she still can't reliably name notes. Mother actually thinks she might put this child in for a music scholarship . I explained that she was likely to be up against kids with grade 4 or 5 at least.. These people have NO IDEA!!! Well, make or break, it is grade 1 next term or bust.

One of the nice things about having exams at my house has been meeting other teachers and realising that they have similar struggles. String players turning up with bridges falling off, slack strings, dented instruments etc - do these parents take no interest at all in what is going on?

It's my new mean piano teacher stance!! Mua-ha-ha...

No!! They are having a laugh!

How old is this child?

Had a conversation with the Deputy Head yesterday. He thought my daughter played very well at presentation evening last week, Grade 5 Jazz Sax piece on Bari. I explained to him that it was Jazz and she was improvising. I then reminded him her school music teacher claimes she is no different to the rest fo her class and can't improvise on 3 notes .

If the family need a school for their child I can recommend one

Child is 10. 'Plays' three instruments. Cannot maintain a steady beat, cannot clap in time, cannot pitch a note to save her life.

Un-be-lievable.

No way will I be supporting any scholarship application. Too embarrassing to contemplate.

Outrageous things do have a way of coming back to bite on the bottom, don't you think?

There's a big difference in playing 3 instruments and being able to play 3 instruments

I had one of these a few years ago. Child had a low grade after years of lessons and was struggling towards the next exam. Father got 'music scholarship' into his head. One of the most difficult pupils I've ever taught - each week he would come along and we would undo his past week's practice and try to put it back together. If he got the rhythm, he couldn't find the notes. If the notes were more or less correct there would be no recognisable rhythm. Agh! sympathies.

I had a similar situation last year. Mum (who I have no contact with, as Grandad pays for lessons and brings girl every week) phoned to say she'd heard about music scholarships for the local girls high school and had been told her daughter would need to be at least Grade 3 level. Did I think I could get her up to that level in a year? The girl had only taken Prep Test and was nowhere near Grade 1 at that stage. Mum said maybe it could be managed if she worked really hard, which was when I started to smile to myself - the girl does very little practice and hasn't even got an instrument at home, but has to go to grandad's to practise when she gets the chance. Plus she's doing all sorts of other after school activites. Of course I told her (as kindly as I could) there was no chance at all.
Now I've been told (via Grandad) that she needs to take 6 months off to concentrate on her Sats and she'll come back again after that. And of course they'll probably expect me to keep the much-sought-after 3.30 slot!!

I don't know, David. I'm beginning to realise that the potential is only a bit of it - the main thing is how much they've consistently practised since the beginning, or at the very least how much they've practised in the months leading up to the exam.

I've never had a pupil who's really done the practice and not become a good player, and I've never had a pupil who didn't do the practice yet still became good. 'Talent', whatever that is, or potential - seem to have little to do with it. And in any case, it's the practice that creates the talent and the potential. Ok some people have a head start because of a musical background, and they may also have the best possible conditions for practising - supportive parents, a good routine, not too many other after-school activities crowding their practice time.

Some examples:

Student 1, aged 17: practises every day, sometimes for hours. Has done amazingly well.

Brand new student 2, aged 14: bit like Student 1, also practises for hours - very fast progress so far. Will do as well as Student 1 if he keeps it up.

Student 3, aged 8: rarely practises, if ever. Always has some lame excuse. Playing abysmal but loves lessons so will continue for forseeable future. Am trying everything to get her to practise but mum doesn't seem to realise what's required.

Student 4, aged 15: says she practises but I think she's lying! Playing has completely stagnated. Aaargh.

Student 5, aged 7: has got the practice bug - does loads. Doing really well, am delighted with her.

Now none of these students are what I'd call naturally musically talented, whatever that is, and only Student 5 has a musical parent. But their playing standard is utterly dictated by the amount they practice and their talent is developing accordingly.

It's like Tiger Woods when he was told: 'goodness, you're so talented!' and he responded: 'thank you and you know what? The more I practise my strokes the more talented I become!' Or something like that.

So those students who only ever scrape passes, I'd say in 99% of cases they just haven't done enough practice - it's as simple as that.

10.000 (ten thousand) hours of practice according to this Guardian article No, not to scrape a pass

But according to great violinists biographies, the practice thing sounds about right. Also the DeLay pupils were apparently required to practice 3-4 hours a day, if I remember correctly one hour for scales, one for studies eand so on...and we are talking children/teenagers here. And if I am correct allmost all of them started very young, at least way before 7 - even if they did not practice that much when they were younger, they still clocked up quite a few hours before other people even start playing the instrument.

[quote name='jenny' date='Dec 1 2008, 01:02 PM' post='765566']
[quote name='dolce@piano' post='765560' date='Dec 1 2008, 01:48 PM']

I think, in general, a child should be ready for the Prep test after 2 years and for Grade 1 a year later. Many are a lot quicker but I've never had anyone slower than that

[/quote]

I find this a very interesting comment.
We're told by the Board that the Prep Test is designed for students who have been playing for 6 - 9 months.

6 to 9 months! I think this is also a bit ambitious!! maybe a year if they're quick or 18 months. Only problem I have is that sometimes the parents think they will move straight onto Grade 1 after PT. But there are pupils that are PT nearly grade 1 and some that are miles away from Grade 1. However, PT is good for giving them a boost

I think for clarinet/sax it may be slightly different, but I normally get someone to Grade 1 in 2 terms from starting from scratch. The longest was a 7 year old on soprano sax, who couldn't read music when he started and so took 1 year.
Recent example. Pupil started Oct 07, passed Grade 1 in March with 133 and Grade 3 this session with 130. I've just had another girl who started May 08 pass her Grade 1 this term (and she had a 2 month summer break in the middle of that!).
I can't say I've ever used the Prep test, so can't really comment on that.

I learned the violin with a peripatetic teacher at school, so didn't start until I was 12 (no teacher at primary school)

I rushed through grades 1, 2 and 3 in about 3 terms and passed them all with good marks (merit and distinction) on very little practice.

I already had a head start with the aural tests/theory etc as I was already playing piano (was working towards Grade 5 piano when I started violin) so that's why violin teacher rushed me through the grades.

Skipped Grade 4 and went on to Grade 5 - without realising what a big jump it is between grades 3 and 5! I still did very little practice, and failed my first attempt.

BUT, this failure gave me the kick up the ###### I needed. I then realised that I was going to be stuck at Grade 4/5 level for ever if I didn't practice more. So I did - but my violin teacher still pushed me through the grades and tried me for Grade 7 just before I left school at 18 which I again failed. (I retook Grade 5 and passed, but skipped Grade 6 - big mistake!)

So, combination of too little practice and being rushed through because my time left at school was limited led to my 2 failures. But I'm glad I was pushed, because I did pass Grade 5 and then was able to get in to the Youth Orchestra where I spent 3 happy years

Have one little boy whose parents are convinced he is truly gifted (he is, in fact, perfectly average which is not a criticism just a statement of mathematical fact that the majority of people, by definition, are average).

He is also a year above at school. This means for the family that he walks on water. It means for me that he insists on doing things 'his' way and not listening.

He has just done his Prep test and did fine but was 'criticised' for playing a bit too heavily and without much in the way of dynamics. I have sent an email explaining to the parents that it is difficult to develop any touch if one only has an un-weighted little keyboard to play on (and that he should listen to me more). This last part will fall on deaf ears but if they invest in a piano or decent keyboard, however, and he still does not turn into a little Mozart, I will have to plan my next line.

The Christmas concert is coming and I have put him just after a little girl two years younger who is truly talented. I'm hoping they might see the blindingly obvious but maybe not . . .

"I think for clarinet/sax it may be slightly different, but I normally get someone to Grade 1 in 2 terms from starting from scratch."

I tend to agree with this post based on personal experience. My son (aged nearly 11) has now played the piano for about 3 and a half years and this term got a merit at grade 4 (128) - i.e. just about a grade a year, which I understand is about average progress.
He started playing the alto sax as a second instrument almost exactly one year ago and this term passed grade 5 (distinction 130) - his first sax exam was grade 4 last term (also distinction).
He has made very rapid progress on the sax which I ascribe mainly to the fact that he can now read music well - (when he started the sax he couldn't believe that he only had to read one line of music and didn't have to play any chords!), however it has also occurred to me that the initial learning curve for a woodwind instrument is lower than for a keyboard.

Apologies If I have wondered off topic but I do tend to think that there is more to learn initially for piano (not least having to read two lines of music and two clefs) hence perhaps the prep test has a use there.

Am I right in assuming that early progress through grades is likely to be quicker on instruments other than the piano? I'd be interested in knowing if any teachers use the prep test other than for piano and if so, after how much time do you put pupils in - this might provide some interesting insights?

Also are there any stats available on average time from starting playing to grade 1 broken down by instrument?

Please note that I'm not suggesting for one moment that any one instrument is easier / harder than another but simply wondering if there is a difference in initial progress through the grades which I've inferred from Appassionata's post.

I don't find that it's as quick for the flute as Appassionata has found for the clarinet. I do have pupils who are ready for Grade 1 after a couple of terms, but they are the exception. In almost every case they are second study flautists as well. In general, the co-ordination required in the early stages means that it is unusual for flautists to get embouchure, tonguing and breathing all in place if they also have to spend time deciphering the notation.

I'm beginning to use the Prep Test as routine with most young beginners (now the Prep Test has been revamped for flute - I hated the old one), and am finding they are ready for it after two or three terms in most cases. It helps them feel they have a target to get to which doesn't involve them rushing into playing the middle register too early. Those who have a solid grounding in the bottom register make faster progress in the end than those who have rushed the early stages.

... and this applies to any instrument!

Hi Cambiata,

To answer your question - Alex's first piano teacher didn't like the ABRSM or grades (she was a great teacher, now sadly retired who really enthused him & introduced him to some great music including Bartok, Bach & Clementi) so he played piano for 2 and a half years without taking any. This year he took grades 2, 3 and 4 in spring, summer and autumn respectively getting high merits in each (128, 127, 128) - I suspect Piano grade 5 may take him a little longer.

I agree entirely with your comment
"I think the learning curve for piano is usually a very steep one because we have to teach the pupil to be both musically and technically secure at the beginning stages before they gain enough control of the instrument to manage a performance or exam - with the two hands co-ordinating smoothly and use of the pedals (so that's two hands and two feet!)"
I think you have put this point much more succinctly than I was trying to!!

"Your son's first teacher sounds wonderful"

She was great fun, well into her 70s and VERY eccentric. (A proper "Muso" in my mind ) Her reason for disliking the ABRSM was that she had disagreed with an examiners comments on a stylistic issue with one of her pupil's playing about 20 years ago - so she didn't do grades. I was slightly surprised that at Alex's first piano lesson (aged 7 and a half) she started him off with Tonic, Supertonic, Mediant....... - but it didn't seem to put him off!

I would strongly recommend not pushing grades if purely for childish reasons! - Last Christmas (before taking any grades) Alex performed (very well) the Rondo from Clementi's Sonatina in G at a local concert and it was great fun responding to the people who praised him and then asked the standard "what grade is he?" question with "I don't know he's never taken any!" - By their expressions I think quite a few parents couldn't really understand that concept!!

As an aside - my only reason for putting him through some piano grades this year has been for secondary school entrance - but because of his Sax results this didn't actually matter anyway.