meant to be doing my dip in a couple of weeks... just wondering in your experience how much responsibility does your teacher take/how much help do they give you? I have a 20ish min lesson a week, and my when I have asked for help with programme notes and viva he says he doesnt really 'do' that side of things... and doesnt give suggestions of where else to go for help. he says, basically, im old enough to do it by myself (im 16 though!)
am feeling quite underprepared (especially as he's told me he assumed the recital was long enough but when i timed it it was way under, and i have only recently got some more music - ive only had a couple of lessons with him on it)
is this the normal level of involvement for a teacher at dip level? i am not sure. any own experiences would be great to hear!

No I don't think it is very helpful. 16 is quite young to be doing a dip and I doubt if you've had the experience (yet) of writing and rewriting and editing out that is needed for decent programme notes. I hope you have access to a music library to research your pieces.
A 20 minute lesson a week doesn't sound much either, but that is less important than having something interesting to say about the works you are performing.
Somewhere on this site there can be found some diploma resources and examples for guidance - I hope someone will appear soon and provide a link because I can't remember where it is!

If the dip is in a couple of weeks you can still probably pull it off but I don't think you have been well served in this.
Best of luck.

Hiya soph@, and welcome to the Forums.

We have a website resource to help people who are preparing for diplomas. It's at

http://www.forumconcert.co.uk/diplomas

You'll find lots of examples of people's programme notes, for a variety of instruments, which will give you an idea of the sort of stuff to write.


If you'd like, and if you think it'd help, I'd be happy to review any notes you have written, once you've done so. PM me if you'd like me to do that. I'm not a sax player, but I am used to writing notes.


And very best of luck for the exam.

A 20-minute lesson to prepare for a diploma???!?!?!??!

As for 'responsibility' (as opposed to input in lessons), I would normally say 'not much' at this level, other than helping to chose appropriate repertoire and saying whether you're on track to reach the required standard in time. However, having seen that you're only 16 I think that makes a difference. I think if a teacher is happy to take your money in order to prepare you for an exam at this level they should be able to do the whole thing and not expect you to find someone else to do half of it (ok, I know it's not really half), not to mention the fact it costs a lot to take the exam and you don't want to have to pay that more than once.

He shouldn't just 'assume' your recital is long enough - he should have timed it, or at least made sure that you had.

If what you've described is an accurate, objective picture then I would say 'sack him', bluntly. You don't seem to be getting much for your money.

Which diploma?

A diploma is a professional qualification, so the teacher wouldn't be very involved with the supporting tests. My son is 18 and did his DipABRSM in July, but he did all the research for the viva and the programme notes himself. His teacher did read through the notes once and give some comments as to what might be improved, but that was all. The whole point is that you should be capable of putting together a recital of 35 minutes with programme notes. I don't think the teacher should be involved except in helping you get the pieces you choose to the right standard, and perhaps giving you a few hints for the Quick Study.

To be starting new pieces at dip level with a fortnight to go is not ideal, as surely you should have given your music to your accompanist by now (unless you are a pianist) and be checking timings. All the info you need for diplomas is in the syllabus, so make sure you're quite clear about what is required.

Best of luck with your diploma. Hope you enjoy performing!

By the time you're playing at diploma level, things are clearly very different from grade level playing, and you've done well to get this far so young: at this stage, you'd be experienced enough at practising to be able to get round much of the technical side of playing, but still, the musical side would need rather more time per lesson than you seem to be getting. I probably didn't get any more lesson time than you, but the difference was that I had between one and two hours every few weeks on average, which I needed to be able to give any sort of proper attention to the fine detail in my pieces. Longer lessons also help develop the kind of sustained concentration needed to give a diploma length recital.

As far as timing of a programme etc is concerned, I do think that you've now reached a level where you should be checking syllabuses and taking more of the responsibility for making sure you meet the requirements, but you'll not have been used to doing that: it is something your teacher should have made clear to you rather earlier in the preparation process. The trouble is, it can be difficult to tell what the likely timing of a piece will be until you have pretty much learned it and decided on your pace. Do go and read CD sleeves and maybe a few concert programmes if you can get hold of any, to see the sorts of things your notes might need to contain, check what word count you have to contend with, and yes, I'd also be happy to cast an eye over what you've got if you want some help from the forum on that one - the syllabus details should give you an idea of what is expected. Whatever you do, don't copy and paste big chunks of someone else's - it's plagiarisation, is Against The Rules, and won't help you to learn how to do it for yourself either; it's a useful skill to have .

My teacher knows I'm taking the diploma and he's helping me with the recital part of it, and basically how to play the music and how I should present myself in performances etc. But that's it. I tried to show him my programme notes but he didn't even really look at them, so I'm not getting much support either, but I kind of don't expect it.
At this level, with it being a professional qualification I know that I am the one who has to prepare myself in the other aspects of the exam. At 16, it is probably a difficult thing to get used to, I'm 19 and having been at uni for a year and a bit it didn't come as much of a shock.

Although I would add that 20 mins for a lesson seems very short, I know little kids who have that long cos of concentration reasons! If you can, try and squeeze in a few longer lessons. If money is an issue at least try and make it 30 mins.

when i was 16 (quite a few years back), my piano lesson was roughly 1hr 10 mins long. i could deal with long lessons as i have quite a high concentration. i do hope you can get more than 20 mins per week, that's definitely not enough for a diploma preparation.

i understand your concern about writing programme notes, but i think there's a book published by ABRSM about it (i've got one)- Music in Words ; and as other forum members have suggested, you should look at concert programmes and CD leaflets. when i sat my LTCL in march, i didn't bother asking my tutor to read my notes (as i've written quite a dozens before) and i only sent it to my god-mother (who's an ABRSM diploma examiner) for a final check.

in terms of putting a programme together. i read the syllabus myself and put down pieces that i wanted to play from there. then i would consult my tutor about it, sometimes he'd suggest some alternative solutions. for next year's FTCL programme, i'm putting it together myself and my tutor has "transferred" the responsibility of getting the timing right to me. i know you are still young, but this shouldn't be solely your teacher's responsibility.

learning and getting really comfortable with new pieces at this stage is quite risky. all i can say is practise hard and have plenty of rehearsals with your accompanist.

okay, enough talking. very best of luck with the preparations.

I believe that given Dips are ostensibly professional qualifications, the candidate should take all responsibility for their notes/research/programme. Bouncing ideas off of anyone (including teachers) is of course a great idea but I have no time for Dip candidates who want all of these things handed to them on a plate - just because they are paying their teachers for a lesson.

In fact, I go further. I feel that a candidate should be starting to develop their own sense of 'self' as a performer, and to that end should be able to _direct_ their teacher in the areas of technique/interpretation they wish to focus on - in the context of the diploma programme. Of course a teacher can always offer suggestions in what areas could be good ones to focus on, but the final decision should remain with the student.

This kind of independence of thought and development of a performing persona is key to 'professional level' performance. Taking responsibility is something which comes with taking advanced exams, such as diplomas.

Just my twopenneth...

i think you are right confutatis. if i were to leave everything to my tutor, i wouldn't have got anywhere in my playing, let alone sitting a diploma. i often "direct" the lessons, my organ tutor acts as support and often the lesson (discussions within the lessons) tends to be very inspirational and useful.

I wasn't sure how much to quote but I'd agree with the thinking above. A teacher's role at this level is consultative rather than dictatorial.

I think it really depends on what you expect from your teacher. For me, if I were to study with a teacher with hopes of passing the diploma, I would have expected him to help with me choosing the right programme for me at least.

When I prepared for my Advance Cert. on bassoon, my bassoon teacher looked through the list and recommended pieces to me based on their difficult and my strengths/weaknesses. That was extremely helpful. When I prepared for my DipABRSM for oboe, I asked my oboe teacher which pieces would suit me better, and he said he didn't know (he really didn't care). That was the last time I saw him, and I went on to pass all levels of diploma on my own.

The bottomline is, you pay for your teacher's service. If he/she is not helpful to you, just walk away. You wouldn't hire someone who couldn't do the job, right?

I bow to your manifest achievements, WKL, but where is the fun in being told _what_ to play? Is not one of the joys of the Diplomas the actual act of _discovery_ ? Why do people travel, if they could just get away with reading a book about that place or talk to someone who has already been there? People want to feel it, see it, smell it, taste it and _hear_ it for themselves.

What turns one person on is not the same for the next person. One person's pet hates are another person's delights.

Surely it is better to learn by exploring the repertoire and understanding where one's technical shortcomings need remediation? The teacher can help with that discovery of course, but being prescriptive is too much of a cop out for my taste - easier in the short term, doesn't benefit the diploma taker in the long term.

I agree with most of what you say, confutatis, but diploma repertoire lists are so long! I couldn't have afforded all the clarinet music for my son to try, so initially his teacher suggested about ten or twelve pieces she thought might suit him, for several of which she was able to lend him the music. This did keep the cost to manageable levels (we bought 4 or 5 new pieces initially, then eventually bought 2 of the ones she'd lent, because he decided to do them) and meant he could choose from a wider range of suitable repertoire than if he'd just stuck a pin in the list! He then made his own choice of four pieces from the music he'd had a chance to try.

So I think teachers do have their uses in helping pupils with diploma repertoire, though I agree that discovery should be part of the experience - she did tell him he could try anything he liked, but he found it useful to have pieces recommended. I can understand that if Wai Kit Leung felt his oboe teacher just wasn't interested, it would have been very off-putting.

it is a two-way thing. teachers need to leave a little hints on choosing your repertoire and stuff, but you have to do the work yourself. i understand the diploma repertoire lists are very long and you cannot possibly try all the pieces. i always have certain composers in mind when i create my choice of programme. also, you can listen to recordings (don't have to buy every single one, use or join naxos, shouldn't be to crazily expensive) and make your decision.

Remember Soph@ is only 16.

It seems to me that she should not have been entered for this diploma until all of this was straightened out. I've no doubt she is perfectly capable of all that is required but to have only 2 weeks to go and still not have perfected her pieces and timed them is in my view a dereliction of a pupil. Of course she must write the notes and do the research herself but how many of us would have entered for a diploma and THEN begun to prepare?

I think most on here were rather older and more experienced when they embarked on this particular path. My lessons were considerably longer even if several weeks apart - and my teacher gave me an extra (free) half hour a few days before. I think Soph@ will be lucky if she gets that much input.

yes. that's young. but i did remember my piano teacher left me to sort out all the programme notes and stuff (had to read regulations by myself etc etc), she only entered me for the exam and helped me to brush up pieces. the scary thing was my teacher was in a concert tour 2 weeks before my exam!!! i was around 17 then.

Actually I didn't say I expected my teacher to hand-pick the pieces for me, nor did I want to take his/her suggestion without thinking. I was just saying that my oboe teacher didn't even care to think a bit about what pieces would suit me.

If I knew the repertoire so well as to know every piece on the list (which is where I am at now, after passing all diplomas), I suppose I wouldn't need a teacher to start with. At the diploma level, the teacher should know his/her stuff and should offer quality advice for the money. That's how I look at it. If I get a chance to teach a student at the diploma level, I would make sure my student wouldn't be on his/her own. I would look at the student's strengths and weaknesses and inform him/her of what pieces may put him/her in the best position of passing the exam. The ultimate decision is the student's, but the teacher should act as a guide.

We were told that the teacher does not enter people for diplomas, but that you have to enter yourself. There is certainly no "Presented for examination by..." bit on the diploma certificate. Surely Soph@'s parents would have looked at what was entailed before paying out quite a lot of money to enter her for a diploma?

Firstly, good luck in your diploma, at 16 you are very couragous taking on this level of qualification, and it must say something about your playing that your teacher thinks you are ready for this.

Now for teacher involvement. When I took my LRSM, my teacher who an ABRSM examiner corrected any mistakes and advised me on the type of thing the examiners would be looking for. She was not involved in a note by note or complete interpretational role, however some of ideas to add some finesse were very welcome.

Do you trust your teacher? Remember it is your diploma and the examiners want to hear your musicality and technique not your teachers. Keep that eye on the prize and you will succeed.

Finally the Viva can be intimidating for younger candidate, but remember that the examiners want to find out what you know and not catch you out.

Remember the courage you have shown in entering in the first place, and you are poised to do well, and if you do fail, you can resit, it is not the end of the world.

I agree with the above. For my diploma I think I had one hour long lesson and that was that. My programme notes were done all by myself apart from them being checked over by someone who gave some useful advice and found my stupid mistakes. Viva prep was my own doing too. Yes, ok, one could argue that I was a university level musician anyway and 5 years older but still...

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Yes, ok, one could argue that I was a university level musician anyway and 5 years older but still...
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Precisely.