One more month, will be my anniversary in picking up the violin. I'm so glad that I still love it since i have a history of hobby hopping, I'm very glad that I'm still loving the violin!!

I'm in the states, and I realize that we maybe using different methods. Here in the states, Suzuki is very popular. While I'm not using the Suzuki method (where you listen to the CD like 2347289 times a day) and play by ear, I do use the Suzuki book as my core repertoire. I'm almost done with book 4 and my teacher is wearning me off of Suzuki.

One thing that I find weird is I don't think that the pieces I work on align with the scales or the etudes that I'm working on AT ALL!?

I am working on Kreisler's Tempo de Menuetto and Mozart G Major Sonata. But the etude book I'm working on (Wohlfahrt Op.45, book 1) is all in first position. And then when I do my scales, I'm working on 3 octave scales, major, harmonic, melodic minor. Dominant, subdominant, submediant, dominant/diminished 7th etc, broken thirds, chromatic, my head is about the explode just thinking about it. As you know, most 3 8ve scales go up quite high on the fingerboard, but this is like the only time when I'm playing that high!! None of the pieces/etudes i work on goes higher than 5th position! Is this normal?

I used to like playing scales the first few months of learning violin, I was very comfortable doing 2 octaves, it's nearly soothing to do so. Now, when I take out the scale book, it's a real pain.

I guess scales are the foundation of playing violin. There's no harm in doing 3 octave scales before you encounter stuff that high in your pieces as they will prepare you well. Just make sure you're playing in tune at the top so you don't get into bad habits. With pieces and etudes, often the difficulties are more to do with bowing and rhythm, so see the scales as intonation practice, so that's sorted when you come to playing your pieces, and then you can focus on other aspects of your playing.

Normally I pick the studies that work on something that I'm finding difficult in a piece, string crossing, bowing, spiccato etc not the other way round. And scales although they are really useful, don't tend to align with pieces, unless the piece stays in the same key signature the whole way through.

As the pieces get harder, they use higher and higher positions, don't stress about it if they're not that high now. Pieces I'm playing at the moment go from 8th-11th postition. I'm not even sure you can call them positions that high - they're just leger lines!

x

Oh, I also realize that I get totally confused when any note hits above the high E. I have absolutely no idea what note they are (sight reading), I usually try to play them by looking at intervals and in my head, I do the whole step half step thing and suddenly, my teacher ask me what note that was, and I was like...ehmmm.. no idea...

Did I miss something or have you really made that much progress in just one year? How much do you practice?!!

Yeah, I was just thinking what marvellous progress you'd made in 11 months, but maybe you meant it wasn't your first violin-o-versary?? Whatever, it's great that you're enjoying it so much and doing such a nice variety of things. However, if you feel that you scales syllabus etc is too much for you at the mo, do tell your teacher so. After all, you are the client and they must provide a service that suits your needs and doesn't knock you out!!

I've been playing viola for about 21 months now and am nowhere near that equivalent level, but then, as health hasn't permitted thus far, I'm just pleased with what I have been able to do and that I have made strides anyway.

To your question, yes my stuff matches up, but then there isn't much choice at such easy stages! Having said that, my main tutor books (Essential String Method series) have been limbering us up for shifting from book 1 and, looking ahead, I see an exercise in 3rd position in book 3, which is AB grade 3 stuff, way ahead of us even getting on to grade 2 material and possibly even before completing grade 1. Still, it's a small thing and will, no doubt, be very useful.

Keep up the good work and send me some of your umph, will you?

It is very good progress in one year!

elisabeth - I have no idea what standard the op is, it took me 6 years to get to grade 5 (thats when you first get 3 octave scales).

fayewolf - I don't know what notes they are above a high E either, but its never really bothered me. I play by interval above that.

x

Hi all

I am about to finish Suzuki book 1! Like you fayewolf i don't get taught it as a strict method, just the pieces. feel pretty confident about all grade 1 and grade 2 scales but Bflat major being a bit of a pain at the moment - my brain knows where my fingers should go, my ears know what the notes should sound like unfortunately brain and ears aren't talking to fingers! I'm just dabbling with shifting too which is great.

my problems are mainly catching the other strings and not having as much time as i would like to practise. And whenever I play in front of friends I instantly become RUBBISH!

I have been playing since May and love playing the violin. I wish I'd done it years ago

What are Suzuki 2,3 and 4 like compared with 1?

Happy playing everyone

Spark

I'm quite happy with my progress, but honestly, I'm by no means talented or smart. I played piano when I was 6 and only got up to grade 2, then I took the theory test like 15 years later and never continued with the piano, but do have a little bit of music background. In less than a year, my violin playing has already surpassed my piano ability, I do think everyone's brain is wired differently for different instrument, I'm definately wired the "string" way!

In regards to 3 octave scales, it is quite difficult, esp the third octave. My teacher recommend me to practice the upper octave more running up and down to secure the intonation. I did tell her this is very difficult but she said I'm progressing nicely and I should keep doing them. The most difficult part for me are the various appregios (the fingering I use shifts to 4th position and stuff, my head explodes!!)

Spark, Suzuki book 2 is not that much difficult than book 1. Especially the first few pieces, they are actually easier than the last couple of minuets from book 1. Book 3 is a bit of a blur for me, I don't remember much, but Book 4 is a HUGE LEAP from book 3. You get started on concertos right away. I think shifting begins when you tackle the Vivaldi which is loads of fun. The last piece of book 4 is the highlight of the book in my opinion, the Double Bach in D minor, so beautiful. It does require one to be very strong with the counterparts otherwise, when you play with the first violin (your teacher), it will be a royal mess.

The Mozart I'm working on is the easiest of all his sonata, but it is a different league. It's not so much of the notes being difficult, but musically. My teacher said that Mozart must be played with extreme precision and extremely clean. And the Kreisler is hard because of the shifts and the trills and turns.

I'm having so much fun with the violin it's not even funny!!

Oh, another reason of my quicker progression is because I had the guts to show up in a community college chamber orchestra when I was only 3 months into playing the violin!! Playing in my ensemble significantly improved my intonation (because the conductor will give you a dirty look), counting, and most importantly, sight reading! I encourage all beginners to join an orchestra as soon as you feel comfortable !!

Just thinking about the idea of having 'first stage' players doing concertos etc, I remembered that the current viola grade 2 syllabus has a simplified version of cello suite #6 on!! I think it's nice to have a go at some of the better known pieces, whether it's 'for real' (as far as one's level allows) or simplified. Makes you feel you're really able to play something. Seems like the Suzuki books have a similar idea, if what Fayewolf says about Book 4 is anything to go by. I haven't seen my book 4 (not Suzuki, but Essential String Method), but I daresay it ahs some good stuff in it.

Wish I could join an orchy, but the only one in the area I could join is, of course, at a time I couldn't go!

Oh... too bad!! You'l be so happy to play with others!! I love all the cello suites!! (Sometimes I ask myself why i didn't pick cello instead).
I agree playing familiar works gets people movitated! The concertos in suzuki 4 are not simplied versions, but they are considered "student concertos", the composer is Seitz.

So tell us, do: How much prac do you do? I mean, to get to the standard you're talking about, unless there are some really weird inconsistancies in the course you're following, normally takes a few years. Well done, BTW!

Eliz, trust me, throughout the course, I constantly worried that my teacher is out of her mind and just let me move on to another piece without the appropriate foundation! (She's not, because another nice teacher that helps out in our orchestra coaches us and he think the stuff I'm playing is appropriate for my level)

I don't practice all that much, an hour a day usually, except one night of the week, i have 3 hour rehearsal, and another coaching session 2-3 times a month.

I don't think the path I'm following is all that different, i played thru all the suzuki 1-3 book very quickly, but book four took me a long time. I just got switched to 3 octave scales 2 months ago.

General thinking is that your etudes and scales build technique for pieces, so you should always have harder etudes than pieces. Scales should cover the range that you require for the etudes and pieces, plus a bit more. So if you're not doing above top A in your pieces and etudes, I wouldn't say you should be doing 3 octaves higher than maybe C major.
You should certainly not have an etude book all in 1st position - there's no point. If you wish to split technique into exercises and etudes then exercises can be all in 1st position (they cover the basic elements of technique one by one, examples are Schradiek, Sevcik) but etudes should combine techniques and put them in context so when you have combined techniques in pieces it's easier to tackle them (this is Kreutzer, Dont, Paganini etc).

Otherwise your technical work becomes redundant and you will be learning nothing from it, just going through the motions of "doing technique", and learning technique through pieces which is poor practice, and will make learning pieces slow and arduous.

For someone whose been playing less than a year, that's actually quite a lot!

Oh, PLEASE don't call me 'Eliz'! I loathe 'Liz' with a passion, and 'Eliz' is even worse, it's not a name! Call me 'fathead', 'numbskull', 'thunder thighs' or 'deadhead' in preference!!

What a good discussion,
Thank you Bohemian, being an adult learner, I've never really understood the difference between etudes and exercises, that's helpful
It's taken me about 1 year per grade to get past Grade 5,and it looks like 18 months per grade from now on. The technical side of the Grade 6 pieces is beyond me at the moment, and I don't want to ruin the Bach viola da gamba sonatas by learning technique through them.
So I'm using Carse book 5 and Scales from the Trinity Grade 6 collection. Have also got Sevcik, but my current teacher isn't keen. The Mary Cohen , Technique Takes Off is great for studies, but the Technique flies high is only available for violin so far, but can probably be adapted for viola.

Happy Channukah

Rebecca

You could probably look at books such as Sevcik Op 2 (bowing), Op8 (shifting). Op9 (double stops), Schradieck school of violin technique (LH dexterity), and Kreutzer etudes at this stage. The Sevcik and Schradieck only need take up 20 minutes or so per day and you can mix then up a lot to keep it interesting, then 10 minutes of Kreutzer to combine techniques and you'll be sorted. Most people don't get into technique properly until after grade 8 and do learn technique as and when it pops up in a piece but this leaves big gaps in technique which then have to be filled in later.
If you got to grade 5 in a year Then I think you'll be fine with less than 18 months per grade! It takes most of us at least 5 years to get to grade 5!

Shabbat shalom (2nd earliest of the whole year!)

I think he/she meant 1 grade per year to get to grade 5? After 2 more pieces, I'll be moving onto Wolfhart (I know i spelled his name wrong, but I don't know how to spell it!!) book II which includes higher positions!!

Elisabeth, I'm terribly sorry for calling you eliz, never again!


Yeah, at the beginning, those rehearsals were quite brutal, but it's actually not that bad now, I have alot of fun!

Sorry Bohemian, I meant that I took a year per Grade, I'm not very good at all, believe me, or if not ask the other violists,( we are all doctors but the other two both have red beards!!)
Orchestra concert tomorrow.


And thank you for the recommendations for etudes and exercises, I'll be in touch with Blackwells Music shop yet again.


Shabbat Shalom

Rebecca

Regarding the original question ...

This is for piano but I see no reason why it should not apply to other instruments.

First I choose the pieces I want to be able to perform, then I work on the scales/arpeggios etc. in the keys that are used in those pieces, and find etudes and technicasl exercises to overcome any particular technical difficulties.

On the side I may pick an unrelated etude to develop new skills, or for its musical value (ideally both).

Oh alright then Fayewolf, I'll forgive you!!!!!!!!

I think a year per grade is a reasonable speed. I'm not even ready for Grade 1 yet and have been learning nearly 2 years, but then my circumstances have been unfavourable. Ready to forge ahead now though!! It's often only the real whizkids that go a great dela faster than this, and I think there is someone on forum who, transferring somewhat from wind playing, is preparing for grade 8 violin after less than a year playing!! Folk go at different speeds, but I'd say a grade per year to G5, then 18 months thereafter is a good, solid average. I'd be happy with that as long as I was enjoying it.

Laila tov
Thanks for the replies
Good luck Elizabeth, I love learning and playing the viola, and being in an orchestra, even playing not very well , is a real joy.
It really gave me a purpose and the camaraderie in the viola section is unique, As the butt of the orchestral humour, we are the most laid back section, and have the most fun.
The other two violists are very helpful and supportive and give learners the confidence to go for it.,and then you surprise yourself and can do things that you never thought possible.
Lots of arpeggios in the Peer Gynt, which seemed impossible 4 months ago, after hours of patient tuition from the others , are now playable, and even up to speed.

Bohemian talks a great deal of sense, the comments are always helpful and recommendations have been great.

Rebecca

Wow I wish I could practise for an hour a day!

By the time I get home from work and do other work and home related things I can only really manage 4 1-hour sessions plus an hour lesson a week - and that's on a good week

Spark

I think that's me? >_<
When i first started i'd never have expected to even be on like grade 5 by now. It's just i practise aaaaaall the time and have put in so many extra lessons with my mega good teacher. I've only just started grade 8 though, and am planning on taking it this time next year, so at that time i'd have been playing for 2 years. My teacher is so good and i have a 20 min lesson every week and an hour lesson every other week and even try fit in some extra lessons, and i practise atleast an hour a day, that's the only reason i did it so quickly

I think practicing atblrast an hour a day, and regular lessons make us progressed fast! In addition to my weekly hour long lessons, I also do 3 hr rehearsals weekly plus additional coaching time with an orchestra member (he's a teacher). I also have a wonderful teacher that knows how to push me, yet didn't stress me out to a point that's unbearable!

Yup ffliwt, it was you I meant!!

On a good week, I have a 30 minute lesson and practice for 20-30 mins on 4 or 5 days, so that's quite a lot less than the two of you have been able to put in and I don't have such a musical background. It's easier when you've more time (i.e.if you're a younger person living at home and don't have the home to look after etc), and if you've got stable health - something I would pay a lot for!! Anyway, I'm glad to hear how well you're both doing and that you're enjoying it a lot.

Keep up the good work and let us know how it goes. I will too - only quite a bit slower.
(No, I don't mind really!! I do it for fun and enjoy what I do and that's all that counts. )

An hour a day is nothing! When you're at music college 3 hours every day is basically a minimum although some days I just can't comcentrate and end up just doing like an hour and a half

As for what I'm working on, I'm doing Brahms E minor cello sonata, Popper Study No. 14, Bach Gamba Sonatas, and Requiebros by Cassado. Also a ######load of orchestral exceprts which include Elgar Enigma Variations, Mendelssohn Hebrides overture, Haydn Surprise Symphony, Mozart 40th Symphony and Tchaikovsky Swan Lake

Yeah it is a lot easier for me as i'm still in school and not only that but i only do 2 subjects (music and welsh) so i have like 3 free lessons a day, meaning it's easy for me to find 2 or 3 hours practise time a day. With adults i'm sure it's hard to find even a spare 20 mins!

How right you are, Hun! Easy too for music college students to sort out practice time too as that's what they're there for !!!

Not at all.

I am 53, have a full time job, spend time travelling back and forth between the UK and the Netherlands every two or three weeks, have been looking for a house to buy in one country and arranging to rent/sell in the other, sorting out all the mountains of admin involved in moving from one country to another, am spending time with dentists and doctors getting my aging body patched up, learning Dutch, studying harmony and counterpoint part-time at a conservatoire, am in demand as an accompanist for two singers and a violinist (*hardly counts as practice as the piano parts are easy), I don't even have a piano of my own in the Netherlands yet ... and I still rarely do less than two hours on any one day and manage to average about 4 hours practice a day overall.

It is all down to how much you love it, how much you want to do it, and how determined you are.

I agree, well, maybe more than 20 minutes. My job requires constant travel, like this week I'm in a medical conference. I have meetings from 6am till 5-6, then i have to go out to dinner with customers. I literally spend 20 minutes in my room during the day, and I get 5 hours sleep max. I have my violin with me and I play whenever I can. I practice a little bit after i get back to the hotel (midnight), I have to use a mute, and I hate hate hate playing with a mute, i can't hear if i'm in tune, it affects my bowing... but it's better than nothing.

That schedule is WAY OTT Fayewolf! I hope you don't do that often, it's very unhealthy indeed!

Glad you're making time for yourself in your room though. I don't much like my mute either, but from what you've said, it seems that mine makes me less muted than yours does.