By way of introduction:
I have only ever played on reeds my teacher has scraped (or more recently ones I have scraped myself under his guidance). However, partly out of curiosity and partly because I am going to play in the Leeds concert in January and wanted a reed designed to play at A=440 (and not A=442) I ordered two Fortay reeds which arrived this morning.

Because I was not sure what hardness I use, I ordered a Medium blue reed and a Medium hard purple reed (on the theory that Howarths describes the purple reeds as more free blowing). I'm not overkeen on the blue reed - I think I should have gone for Medium hard but I do quite like the purple one, although it is completely different to the ones I usually use.

This is where I'm going to struggle to put things into words. The Fortay is much freer than the ones I usually use but it still has a certain resistance and remains responsive. When my teachers' reeds are free like this then they become too soft, are liable to squeak and dynamics are virtually impossible. On the downside, the Fortay reed has a much brighter sound and I much prefer the dark, rich sound of my teacher's reeds.

I spent some time comparing the scrapes on the reeds and came to the following conclusions:
- The Fortay reeds seem to be mounted on longer staples (48mm I think) and the overall reed is about 2mm longer. (I say about because my teacher's finished reeds are not always exactly the same length).
- The Fortay reeds are wider (the width and the length presumably explain why they play slightly lower).
- Even the "short-scrape" blue reed has a slightly longer overall scrape than my teacher's reeds and the purple reed has a noticeably longer scrape.
- Both are more U-shaped (again particularly noticeable on the purple reed). My teacher's start of as a W but finish more or less flat.
- Both have a much longer tip.
- Both have a less pronounced and less rounded crescent (this is particularly noticeable on the purple reed, which seems to have virtually no crescent at all).
- My teacher's tips seem to be thinner (although I can't quite decide if this is because there is immediately more wood behind it instead of a more gradual blend).

My favourite reeds, until now, tend to be ones with a long tip (although in reality much shorter than the Fortay ones) and a pronounced heart.

I am now wondering if it is somehow possible to combine the freedom of the Fortay reeds with the depth of sound of my teacher's.

With my limited expertise on oboe reeds...



The length of the scrape, the length they're tied on to, and the width, will all affect the pitch they're playing at, but I wouldn't have thought they would make any difference to the tone in themselves.



Sorry, don't get what you mean here. What shape are they at the bottom (nearest the staple)? That's what determines whether it's a U, W or V. I don't get what you mean if you say your teachers' reeds are a W but finish flat - finish where?



Not so sure about those ones. (I presume you mean the crescent of the tip shape?)



Thin tips can make a darker sound, but it depends how much wood is in the heart right behind it.

One important question for me is what you haven't mentioned, although I can guess from what you say above: if you look at the reed sideways on, does it taper gradually down from the bottom of the scrape to the tip, or is there a definite 'step' down to the tip from the main part of the scrape? I find the latter make a much bigger, chunkier sound than the former, which are a bit weedy for my taste.



Start making your own! I'm now convinced it's the way to go

It's interesting how you describe your teacher's reeds, I always think of French reeds as being quite thin-sounding (or rather, French players!), but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

I knew a longer overall length, wider reeds and longer scrape are all ways of obtaining a lower pitch.

My teacher claims that wider reeds are more unstable intonation wise. I didn't find the Fortay reeds any more unstable than my usual ones so one of the things I was wondering was if a different scrape made a wide reed more stable.


What I meant is that the way he has showed me to scrape them is very definitely in a W. Most of the time when the reed is almost finished it has unsatisfactory low notes and he then scrapes to some extent the middle bit of the W (ie the middle upside down V which sticks up). It then looks as if the base of the W is a straight line (unlike the Fortay which are definitely curved into a U). Although he scrapes the bottom of the W, he lives a fairly distinct thicker spine in the middle of the reed. (Rereading I'm not sure if this makes sense at all).


I do mean the inverted crescent at the tip. On my teacher's reeds the top/middle of the inverted crescent almost touches the top of the reed and it is a more rounded crescent so that what he calls the "ears" are more marked.


I didn't mention it because both my teacher's and the Fortay reeds have a definite 'step' but it is in a very different place - much lower on the Fortay reeds.


I have started making my own but given that I am learning with my teacher he has (obviously) been teaching me to make reeds the way he makes them. I usually scrape them at home to a playable state and then take them to my lesson for him to help me decide where to scrape them to turn them into "nice" reeds.


It's one of the problems of trying to describe sounds. Compared to the Fortay reeds I think I would probably say less powerful rather than thin-sounding. My personal preference is for ones with lots of low harmonics which is what I think the Fortay lack.

I wish I could help you with your hope to combine your requirements in one reed. Making and scaping reeds remains ( and probably will forever remain ) a mystery to me. You have compared the visible scrape of the reeds but I guess they may also be from different cane.
I do have The Oboist's Companion by Evelyn Rothwell ( There are 3 volumes ). Volume 3 is deals completely with making and dealing with reeds. It is out of print ( 1977) but you may be able to find a copy somewhere . Oxford University Press ISBN 0 19 322337 6 . It has plenty of illustrations and profile illustrations starting with the w your describe ( it includes illustrations of American and French scrape) . It also lists possible causes and suggested remedies for problems. Someone might know of a more up-to-date publication in print publication.
I have a variety of reeds from different makers including the Fortay you mention ( both the blue and purple ). I'd love to be able to successfully make adjustments. In the meantime I practise with my knife on aging reeds with a short life expectancy.
Hope you get a great reed for your concert in January.
WoodyBCR

Has anybody read or got Oboe Reed Styles by David ledet ? Analysing over 160reeds from 81 artists !

Doesn't your digi camera have a close-up function?

Let's see a few pics!


Steve

I was at a reed making work shop given by Fortay recently and (although I haven't any experience of reed making to back this up) I came away with the distinct impression that the initial gouge is critical. If the Fortay reeds sound different to your teacher's I would think that's the place to start investigating.

I got some reeds from them which will be softer than yours but definitely harder than my existing ones. I found them very easy blowing and with a nice tone too.

Steve and Lara who make up Fortay were very helpul and I would suggest, rather than buying through Howarth, go to them directly. Send them a query outlining your comments - I'm sure they would offer you some advice.

Which ones did you get?


I bought via Howarth because I could use my credit card. I was going to show their reed to my teacher today and ask him what he thought but got side-tracked by other things so it will have to wait until next week.

"Academy" (not to be confused with Howarth Academy). They are not listed on the web site - I think they are a new product. They are only made in Medium. I tried the blue thread Fortays too and I would say the Academys are between blue thread MS and M. Cheaper than the blue thread ones though.

Yes and it's a very good book. It's back in print now too!

Thank you AmandaL. Your reply was enough to make me add the book to Santa's list.

As a follow up:
My teacher was fettling one of my Fortay reeds today. Guess what comments came up compared to how she makes her own?
Long scrape
Long tip
No "crescent"
Tip not as thin
....and more meat in the body.

So at least I am getting good at commenting on a reed's characteristics

More seriously, what did your teacher think of the way the Fortay scrape played?

I had been hoping that Andrew would comment on Fortay scrapes and the way he scrapes his own reeds but I don't think it's the right moment

Well she certainly thinks they sound good and from my perspective (since I'm the one who has to use them) I find them responsive and easy blowing. One of them is sounding a touch dull now (it's had more hammer than the other two) so perhaps they are not terribly long lasting.

Perhaps he's still open to a PM.

I have just been flicking through an ex-library copy of "The Art of Oboe Playing" - Sprenkle & Ledet, which I had forgotten I'd picked up. Some brief comments from the Ledet (reed making) bit:

Predominance of tip vibration = brighter quality
Predominance of back vibration = darker quality

So a long tip and short back will produce a brighter sound than short tip and long back. As for a long tip and a long back ????

You can't have a long tip and a long back since they are "long" in relation to each other.

What I did wonder was about scraping the sides. Scraping the sides darkens the sound of short tipped reeds and I wondered if you could do the same with long-tipped reeds and, if you can, how far up you have to scrape.

Ah, for "long back" read "long scrape" (the back as I understand it refers to the scraped area). So as in the case of Fortay versus your teacher's reeds, they have a longer tip and a longer back. I guess that if you create a long tip then in order to balance the sound (i.e. so it's not too bright) you need a relatively long scrape too to get the back of the reed vibrating.

My understanding (and this is also what Rothwell has in her book) is that "scrape" refers to the whole scraped area (including the sides and tip) wheras "back" refers specifically to a sort of central area below the tip (also called the "heart" or the "centre").


My experience of reed-making is that it is not quite so simple. A couple of years ago, I asked my teacher to lower the pitch of a reed to A=440 (in France it is A = 442) because I wanted to play with some people in England who were using A = 440. He did this by lengthening the overall scrape, I no longer have the reed but I would guess it was pretty much the overall length of the Fortay scrape. He did lengthen the tip slightly as well BUT the tip was no where as long as the Fortay reeds and still had a marked crescent and (and this is in complete contrast to the Fortay reeds) he left a very pronounced hump at the start of the what I would call the "back" (or heart).

Also, as I said, assuming the reed plays evenly over all registers, removing brightness is usually done not by lengthening the overall scrape but by thinning the sides.

I was supposed to have a lesson yesterday and I was going to ask him what he thought but he had to cancel it at the last minute so it will have to wait until after the holidays now.

Does anyone know what difference a crescent shaped tip makes as opposed to a more or less straight tip?

I think the following are true.
With a crescent shaped tip:
- high notes are easier to play
- intonation is more stable.

Interesting. My teacher told me off for making my tips too crescent... I'll have to experiment.

I'm getting quite into this reed-making lark now! Just spent another 14 quid on cane.... Hopefully some of them will work!

You'll have to come and see my teacher then who insists that the crescents are very important

I have finally had an oboe lesson and shown the Fortay reed to my teacher.

He said it was not *that* different to his reeds (compared to American reeds). He said that it would probably not be very stable as far as intonation is concerned, would have a rather limited dynamic range - particularly a limited forte as a solo player and probably not a very sharp attack for staccato notes. However, he then said, that these were just his own preferences and I was quite entitled to have different ones.

I used the reed in my lesson and his conclusion was that it probably did suit me a bit better than the ones he had been giving me but thought it would probably be a mistake to use only Fortay reeds as they don't encourage you to use enough support. His suggestion was to play alternate days on Fortay reeds and his reeds.

He then said he'd measure the reed to scrape me some like that and discovered that the staple is considerably longer than the ones he usually uses and the reed considerably wider. He said that in French reed making the longer the staple, the narrower the reed so he was very surprised to find a long staple and a wide reed. His next question, which obviously we couldn't answer without breaking the reed, was what is metal part of the staple like? (ie how it tapers and how wide it is at the end).

Emsoboe had a lesson yesterday and her Teacher liked the Fortay reed (think it was the same purple thread one you were playing on). The only problem he found with the one she was using was that the wire was a bit high, he's altered it and they are both happier with it.

Yes my copy arrived this morning...I only ordered it 16 months ago via an ad in the BDRS magazine...

I will give the supplier the benefit of the doubt but I do feel that 16 months is taking the mickey...

Good book but some atrocious looking bits of scraping are exhibited..

Hello all...looks like I'm back..

Andrew

Many thanks Andrew, Glad you are back. This is nudge I needed with the book. Lets hope Amazon don't take this long.

Welcome back Andrew!



I found that quite reassuring! (I've seen a library copy) Yes, even pro's reeds can look flipping awful, therefore mine can't be that bad...

Speaking of which, has anyone seen this reed scraping DVD?

http://www.oboereedmaking.com/

Oh and yes, nice to see you're back Andrew.

My copy arrived today ( ordered when I last posted ) ! Glancing at it some of the reeds look as if they have been chewed or bitten ! WoodyBCR

That's obviously where we're all going wrong - if you want to sound like Holliger / Goossens / favourite oboist of your choice, you evidently have to duff your reed up a bit.

I was cautiously scraping the tip of a cor anglais reed today when someone rang the door bell and made me jump with the result that I gouged a lump out of the side just below the tip. I was convinced that I had wrecked the reed completely but thought I would try it anyway before throwing it away. To my great surprise, it was not only still playable but had a really nice tone.

I used it happily all through a wind-band rehearsal tonight but I don't think I dare show it to my teacher as it is the antithesis of everything he says a reed should be