I've recently discovered something a little bit bizarre in my piano playing and being a bit of a biologist I'm wondering what the scientific reasoning might be behind it... (or if anyone else has experienced this at all?)

First a bit of background:

When I first started playing piano I could read treble clef fluently but not bass. I could work it out but was no more familiar with it than say alto clef or tenor clef. So... I used to play slowly and work out the bass as I went. My thinking on seeing a written note was something like "A - NO! Bass cleft so that's a C" etc. Whilst this happened very quickly in my head i was still aware of doing this "conversion" Sometimes I'd play it that much to get it I'd memorise the bass and read the treble.

I then reached a certain point where i was aware that i was no longer converting but was actually reading the bass.

Now I find I have a sort of opposite problem. When the left hand strays into treble territory (but written on the bottom line) I instinctively read it as bass. This is often easily corrected but I've recently been looking at a couple of duets which have 2 hands in treble and two hands in bass. Now reading two hands in bass wasn't such an issue but reading two in treble posed me great difficulty and I found myself very consciously trying to "tell" my left hand to play in treble.

I'd thought previously that reading 2 parts in treble cleff would be "easy" but this has thrown me a bit.

Biologically how does it work? Is one eye/part of my brain tuned in to reading bass and this is associated to Left hand and another part to treble with the association to Right hand? How do I get past this automatic association and if I do will it affect my "normal" playing (one hand bass and one treble?)

Sorry for long post but this discovery has taken me a bit by surprise and I'd appreciate discussion/answers and tips if anyone has any.

Thanks
Dawn

Sorry can't give you a biological explanation, but it does seem to be a fairly common problem - I notice that a lot of students find reading both hands in treble clef quite a challenge and I have to consciously 'tune in' to whichever clef I am using. I think you are right that it is a question of habituating to RH treble, LH bass and finding it confusing when something changes. I' m sure you will find that it gets easier with practice.

The human brain is the most complicated mechanism that anyone has tried to understand, so no explanations from me, but a suggestion for enjoyable practice: find a duet partner and make sure that you get some time as Primo. In beginner duets it is often the easier part, because you will find a fair amount of tune in octaves split between the two hands. I recommend "Easy original piano duets" if you can still get it, especially the Lutoslawski piece. (Called something like "A tune I heard").

Thanks for the response but I'd still love to hear explanations of how the brain perceives/ interprets two things at once if anyone knows...

I'm going to do a couple of duets with oldnotes at my next piano lesson. He's organised it (We have the same teacher coincidentally) I'm having a go at the trout and the Heyler Graceful dance. Trout is in octaves mainly in the primo part but I actually prefer, and got to grips with quicker, the secondo part which is all harmonies.

Why does what looks so much easier stump me but getting two hands playing more notes in bass is relatively easy??????

How Bizzare!!!!

I posted about something similar some time ago. I don't have a problem playing both hands in the same clef but my daughter had a trombone/tuba duet with the trombone on the top line written in bass clef and the tuba on the bottom line written in the treble clef. I found I could only play this if I crossed my hands.

Again, no explanation but further anecdotes: I can sight-sing fluently in the treble clef but get totally addled in the bass and can't pitch properly. I can sight-read well on my flute (including silly looking amounts of ledger lines) but when I try to to transpose from bass clef it's like a near melt-down!

However I am around DipABRSM level on the piano and sight-read fluently on that too!

It is very odd!

Reading two bass clefs is definitely easier than two treble clefs for me. No idea why though.

Another weird thing I've found is that I don't actually notice when the clef in one hand changes, but I will change accordingly - I think it's something to do with a general feel of where the notes are heading, or something like that. Just recently though, I have found myself changing clef when I shouldn't, because it would make sense musically. It's one place in particular and I do it almost every time. I think the LH goes something like E then F above middle C, then jumps down to B and C more than an octave below that - makes much more sense as a G and A in treble clef!

Thanks Guys/Gals

glad to know i'm not alone here then.

Think I've said this before somewhere but as a teacher who could play treble recorder and read bass clef (Early stages of piano lessons) I was asked to play bass recorder. Loved the idea, got really excited and then just could not do it!!!!! I'd have been ok reading in treble but just could not equate recorder fingering with reading from bass clef!!! Passed over to one of the y6 kids who just took it in his stride!!!


The brain indeed is a curious and complicated mechanism!!!

I don't know this problem, but I can think of a sort-of parallel.

When learning to drive, at first there is an awful lot to think about at once. You have two feet which have to work with three pedals. And as for your two hands, you have the wheel, two stalks with indicators, windscreen wipers, etc, the gear stick, the handbrake, and on top of all that you might need to use your heater or fog lights. So you have two hands to do at least five things!
This all incorporates in to your brain as automatic, given time. Co-ordinating left hand and left foot to change gear is no problem, and you don't need to look down at the gear stick. You can put the heater on when you need it, you know where your lights are, and so on.

Then what happens? You go abroad. Where they drive on the other side of the road.
Now, you still have three pedals for you feet...but are they the same way round (i.e. is the accelerator under your right foot still, or is it the pedal nearest the door which is now your left foot)? Or maybe you're in the US, so you only have two pedals to think about - but is that worse because it's different?
Your hands still have the same number of things to worry about, except maybe not the gear stick if you get an automatic, but mostly everything will be the wrong way round.
On top of all this - which has you indicating with your windscreen wipers - you now have to actually think about what lane you are driving in, how to make turns at junctions which are now the wrong way round, remembering to turn on to the right hand lane of the new road! And all-new rules of the road - perhaps you can make a right-turn on a red traffic light in the state you're driving in...

This is something that is utterly familiar, very easily turned in to something completely alien...at least in my mind. That's why I don't drive while abroad!

I think all of this is related to our attentional system. We only have a certain amount of capacity for conscious processes available, and this is influenced by factors such as our state of alertness, health, inebriation and the presence or otherwise of a critical (or perceived to be critical) audience.

Because our attentional capacity is limited we have to make some processes automatic, so that they can go on in the background whilst our conscious attention is reserved for what is new or difficult.

Learning to play an instrument (or perform any other complex task) is all about making the conscious processes automatic. We don't have time to 'translate' a bass clef note into treble clef/letter name: we just have to respond to the stimulus (dot on line or in space) with the response (press appropriate key). We do this through practice.

Playing a note in a different clef requires either that we respond by a conscious process, or that we practise enough to make this process automatic too, so that when we see a clef change we shift into a different mode.

Recorder players get very used to this shifting: at any time a consort player may be asked to switch from C to F fingerings and/or treble to bass clef, as well as being required to play an octave up on occasion.

I experienced something of this kind of difficulty this morning - trying to sight read a vocal score with up to six voice parts. The use of clefs varied, according to which voices were being used at any one time. So I started out with three treble clefs and two bass, moved to three treble (the middle two to be read an octave lower) and one bass, and finished up with four treble and two bass.

Argh ! brain has tangle of wires inside.

Sarah123 I know what you mean about sometimes playing in the wrong clef if it makes 'sense' - I can sometimes find myself doing that too.

Slightly off topic, but I was doing some recorder consort playing just before Christmas, and started on bass. I found it really hard to read the music, until I read from the score (with the treble clef lines above) rather than the part. Then I found it a lot easier...

I have about equal difficulty with 2 treble or 2 bass clefs.
I think it's nothing more complicated than being mostly accustomed to reading treble clef for right hand and bass for left.

I've recently experienced similar difficulties - difficulty reading treble clef in LH - with Bach's Two-Part Invention No 2, some bars are written in treble clef for the LH and I was really thrown off balance by that. Rather strange, I'd say, because I am a former recorder player, tenor and violinist and I read treble clef very fluently at first sight. As such, I have great difficulty sight-reading for two hands and this makes my sight-reading rather poor in comparison to my scales/pieces, and technique in general.
So much to confirm your observations.
John

You get good at what you practice: I could be wrong but I think it's as simple as that.

I know what you are getting at but driving abroad only took a little adjustment for me in a car from that country as your relative position on the road is the same. I.e. in the centre of the road so crossing the traffic, going the other way round a roundabout feels right. I think this would have been different in my own car though. It was the driving attitude and ethic I found hard to adjust to. I am a curteous driver so could absolutely not adjust to the aggressive form of driving in Scicily or Italy but Majorca was absolutely no problem (even though this was the first place I drove abroad and at first the car we had was a dodgy old jeep whose bonnet kept lifting ) I was doing narrow mountain passes and the busier roads and reminding my husband which side to be on when he drove!!

However, I'm now finding 2 trebles a little easier on more familiar pieces i.e. more practised, so hopefully it is what a couple of suggested that practice makes things more familar and eventually automatic.

Thanks for the support all.
Glad to know I'mnot alone in this.

I still think that it's all to do with the 'geography of the keyboard' from where one is sitting. moving sideways to play either primo or secondo disorientates one - at least it does me!

Me too.

Would it help to visualise yourself reading and playing treble clef notes with the LH a few times during the day?

That way you don't need special music (or a piano for that matter), but you do get practice that's relevant to the problem.

I strongly doubt it will mess up any of your normal playing. The mind seems to put everything in context.

Actually had an interesting sort-of experience like this.

I am not a good bass recorder player. I still have to think too much. I do play bass for at least one piece at my SRP meetings, and I generally muddle through OK.
Yesterday, I got out some bass music to play at home, and it was an absolutely nightmare. In the end I went back to the tutor book and was playing three-note tunes on it.

It seems at SRP, where I have to keep up, and have no time to think, I can generally manage OK-ish.
But at home, on my own, there's no pressure, and given some time to think...it all went to pot!

Ooo No!!! I'm not a visualiser in this way I'd need the music at least in front of me if not the piano. I think practice will do it for me in the end.

Thanks for the thought though

With practice, reading 2 treble or 2 bass clefs is no harder than reading a bass and a treble. The suggestion to do some duets is a very good one.

What throws me is when I am sigt reading and notice - too late - that for the last 3 or 4 bars the notes I am in playing in one hand seem to have been in the wrong key - then realize that I failed to see the little treble (bass) clef that over-rides the usual clef. Of course the fault is entirely mine - and the real mistake is interpreting the written score purely as instructions for hand movements rather than also as representations of the required sound.

This has arisen mainly in the pursuit of doing duets




This happens to me too!!!! Ooops. I soon adapt to small changes though so hopefully it'llbe the same with whole pieces in two cleffs the same. Just slows me down "telling" my left hand to read treble. Keep finding i slip back into bass. Another OOps!!!!

I had two friends, one who drove and one who needed to learn. We had use of an airfield for their practice. My instructor friend invented the policy that if my learner friend was having difficulty with any aspect of driving, he would add some complexity, so that when they went back to the simpler version, the learner would find it easy. When the problem was reversing, the added complexity was to attach a glider trailer (easier than a caravan, because longer) to the vehicle and reverse the combination

A parallel to the present situation would be to practice playing a piano realisation of an orchestral score, ideally with violas in alto clef, trombones in tenor clef, clarinets in Bb and horns in F. After that, two treble or bass clefs will be a doddle.

I played The Trout (rather badly) with Oldnotes yesterday at the Leeds Forum concert. Interestingly, I chose to play the bass part too, as it seemed easier to read for me than the treble part. I had always thought I could read the treble clef better as well, until just recently. I have been playing a piece that is mainly written in the bass clef, Orage by Burgmuller, and have found that I can read the lower bass notes better than I can read the higher treble notes, possibly because I have been concentrating more on playing them recently.

I am slightly intrigued by the fact that you have the same piano teacher as Oldnotes, and wanted to ask him about it, as he mentioned it yesterday, but didn't have a chance to. Does the teacher live somewhere between the two of you? - it seems a long way to travel!

My thoughts exactly!!! But an interesting strategy anyway.



Firstly Well done Chris!! That was brave to do it in concert as you hadn't played together before had you?


Your feelings with regards to part choice parallel mine. How quickly did you do the quavers in the bass?

Re your question - Both have our lessons in Pocklington, not far from me - somewhat further for Oldnotes who has his own reasons for travelling the distance. Mainly the piano and the fact it's the exam venue I think. Hope Oldnotes does not mind me answering this as it's his business really.

Whereabouts in Yorkshire are you? Feel free to PM me if you prefer.

Chris
I was really impressed by your Burgmuller Orage yesterday, I hope I can play it that well one day.
Regarding the Trout. We played it only slightly slower than you would expect to hear it by a professional ensemble. The problems, and it was both of us, arose in the last few bars (bottom line), both times through, where the secondo 'backing' changes to a 'harmony' line and we got slightly out of phase. It happens, and we should play together again sometime.
My reasons for going to Pocklington for lessons are as Dawn stated and, since first going 3 months ago, I seem to have a rapport with the teacher who understands where I am at and what I'm trying to achieve. I'm looking forward Dawn to our Trout attempt on the 14th, and maybe the Graceful dance, I'm sure G*** will soon sort out any problems we may have.

I have to say Oldnotes that I'm sure you are WAY out of my league but am looking forward to it too. I'm practising trout each opportunity I have but am not sure I've got the quavers quick enough. Tried to get my hubby to play the primo top line (single finger!) just to check but it stumped him totally. Tried to do 1 bass line and top together to check and think I'm maybe a little slow but I'd prefer slow and accurate 1st than fast and totally wrong.

I have to say though that for some reason I'll feel better playing with you than with our teacher. I always get too nervous and fail miserably doing this whilst I'm quite happy to play TO her. Maybe this is because we are both students together so more of a level playing field, if somewhat tilted (You at the upper end!!!!)

Graceful dance is still VERY slow (sorry)

After our duet attempt will you play something FOR me? (Don't do it first or you'll totally give me an inferiority complex )

Glad you enjoyed Leeds and looking forward to meeting you (my first forum member meeting)

Ah, Pocklington - I used to have a friend who lived there. I think apart from the synching problems, my problem with the Trout was a combination of nerves and probably the piece needing more practise so that I did not make silly mistakes in the middle.

I messed the rhythm up in Orage, and also some of the notes, but it's a very forgiving piece, and I don't think anyone noticed. It sounds quite impressive because it's so dramatic. I played it faster than I should have done, but once I'd set that speed I couldn't play it slower.

DawnF wrote:

>Ooo No!!! I'm not a visualiser in this way I'd need the music at least in front of me if not the piano. I think practice will do it for me in the end.

>Thanks for the thought though


You're welcome!

OK, just for fun, how about taking some simple pieces and playing the RH melody with your LH?

(Your RH would be idle; choose pieces where the tune is closer to middle C since this is the target area)

Btw, I too am a Pocklington piano student (or was, rather). It's obviously *the* place to be.

That could work....

Wow how many pocklington students are there on here I wonder....?