I think I already mentioned it somewhere else, and I am interested in other people's views ...

I have the slight notion that students who are mainly interested in contemporary singing techniques, especially those ones who do Pop & Rock (not so much the Musical Theatre people!) are much less committed and work less than people who are quite open-minded about what they want to sing or are interested in the more classical techniques. Not that I don't have really committed contemporary singers, but the amount of students who think everything will be fixed with a handful of lessons is considerably higher amongst the Pop- and Rock singers.
Of course you can learn a lot even in ten lessons, and I have never been one of those teachers who create this really unhealthy dependency ("I know all, you know nothing for the next 5 years", because that's just plain ridiculous) - if a student knows about the necessary tools to fix a problem, that's fine. But some of them really don't and still think they do after a handful of lessons.
Or they find out that learning to sing actually involves as much work and commitment as any other instrument, and they are not prepared to this?

Then again, some of my most talented singers are exclusively singing Pop, so I don't want to say that contemporary singers are not committed in general (I would class myself one these days).
Still, the amount of quitters and people with a plain **** attitude seems to be much higher, so these days, I already start cringing when I get an enquiry and someone says: "I'd really like to sing karaoke in pubs!" ...

I know what you mean, Mezzo. I find sometimes that singers are surprised at how much work and practise it takes, yes - and sometimes those who are used to singing a bit of pop etc and have been told they've got potential, think that my job is just to tell them they sound wonderful and pat them on the back. They generally don't work in between lessons.

I always, without exception, sack these students after a few lessons.

On the other side of the coin, I've got people with previous classical training, that clearly hasn't worked for them, who simply refuse to see things differently because 'they've got training' or 'my previous teacher was Dame Upherself of Who Cares Conservatory and she said never to do that' - yes, and how far has THAT got you, hmmm?

I think sometimes people are surprised that the voice is an instrument and needs work to play it well and perhaps those who fancy singing a bit of karaoke don't really want to go into heavy work and get a bit of a surprise when they have a lesson.

Since the end of the last summer holiday, I only take professional singers, those who wish to become professional, those who've had previous training that didn't work for them, or those who have a very clear goal in mind and are prepared to do the necessary to achieve it.

This has meant that I have a studio that contains several classical professionals, a good few musical theatre pros, some RnB pros, a few rock singers and healthy smattering of metal singers and a very select few amateurs who really don't mind work and really want to succeed. In amongst that lot, I see no real difference of commitment between the classical and non classical sides - both really want to achieve their goals.

Maybe it's a case of weeding out the time wasters?

I think I must just be lucky. I've had very few time wasters in all the years I've been teaching, and have only sacked one student, and that was due to the parent's attitude.
But then, I only teach classical and music theatre (not belting), so maybe Mezzo1974 has a point. I feed them a constant diet of performing opportunities, so I think that focusses the mind. I also tell them on day one that singing is a long term committment - they won't be professional standard in a few months, and that singing is hard work which needs practice like any other instrument. Everyone does theory as well which they are all grateful for when the knowledge starts to kick in.
I also get a lot for whom previous training hasn't worked. But they have always come from unqualified teachers who teach popular music. "Qualified by experience, dahling - those pieces of paper aren't worth the paper they're written on." Shame she ruined your voice before you came to me.

Rosfrog - you've done really well - it was not so long ago I remember you taking on your first pupil - now it seems you have many - and a lot of them professional!

This is quite interesting.

I think part of the reason is that there are a lot of people around like me, who've been singing pop for years without having had any lessons at all. Now at the moment I'm happy with my voice and always get compliments.

So when I think of singing lessons I'd imagine I'd just like a few to brush up what I have, and I have considered it. All I would want though, I think is a few pointers particularly on how to warm up and things like that. I would be a bit scared of sounding like everyone else if you know what I mean.

The thing is I also know that if I started lessons there would be a whole world of stuff that I don't even know exists and would probably end up in lessons for years, and unfortunately I can't afford it!

Just thought I'd add my take from the point of view of an untrained singer.

I think the thing to do would be to shop around and find a teacher who sees their job as helping a student achieve *whatever* their musical goals are, whether that's to be a better karaoke singer or an opera singer, whether for 6 weeks or 6 years. Not all teachers will want to do this, so it's a matter of finding one who does. Some teachers aren't interested in students who don't want to devote their life to their art and who just want to sing as a hobby but don't let this put you off - not all teachers take this view.

Thank you, Lizzy for the insight of a student. From a teacher's point of view - I am currently helping someone for a few weeks to prepare for an audition, but luckily she can come in the daytime, so is not occupying a regular slot. I could not (notice could not - not would not) let a regular slot go for a few weeks in case an enquiry came in for a permanent slot. But what I would do is offer to take them on, on an ad hoc basis - in other words I would offer them my cancellations.
My present lady is reinforcing what Mezzo says, though. She has only had one lesson so far and two have been cancelled. So the committment is not there. Had she been in a regular slot she would have been on a 4 weeks trial, and would not have passed it. As it is, she is not denting my income by this lack of committment, and when her audition is over, I doubt I shall see her again.
But to reassure people - I don't mind what peoples' goals are - I will help anybody willing to pay the fee - that's some committment in itself. One success story is someone who came to me because family told her she couldn't sing and she only wanted to have lessons to build up her confidence to "do a bit of karaoke". She has been with me for a few years now, and takes part in every student concert, enters two festivals a year and will soon take grade 7 with AB "Wot me - do theory?" has turned into " I really enjoyed that and it's so helpful!" If I had had the "No students without clear goals" rule, I would have missed out on a serious, committed, long-term student.

Makes sense,

I know people have to make a living, I would never cancel a lesson and woulnd't expect to take up a more permanent slot.

This is one of the reasons I'm not having singing lessons, although maybe one day..

Until very recently I had no "fixed slots" - and even now have very few.

I have tended to work on an ad-hoc basis for my own pupils in the same way as I have with my own teachers . Sometimes this has progressed to a regular arrangement with a pupil that they come at the same time each week or fortnight as that works for both of us, while for others it's been a case of comparing two fairly chaotic diaries and agreeing on any fortuitous overlaps.

I've been relaxed with people whose financial situation has only let them have lessons on a very fragmented basis - and they've come when they can and some have recommended friends of theirs to come to me too

Before Christmas I was wondering if my relaxed attitude to short term bookings was a good idea. But in this last week, I've had three new starters - two of whom came to me for a few lessons before and are now back with a clearer idea of what they want and what I can help them with Those ad-hoc lessons have been good marketing (with the bonus of a fee to me as well )

I'm relatively near the beginning of my journey into teaching singing. I may find as I build up a practice I want to make it more formal, but for now this works for me

Thanks for your replies so far.

I don't mind people who just sing for fun and don't want to build up a professional or semi-professional career - I think I would not want to work exclusively with pros, because I actually like building up voices from the start and teach people who "just" enjoy making music, even on a not so high level. So that's not the point. I rather think you can be focussed and committed on any level. I don't really have to sack these people anyway, because they usually wander off by themselves

Like Ann, I also do not judge if someone wants to sing karaoke or has smaller goals, far from it. What I DO judge though is bad attitude or better: Not wanting to understand that, if it comes down to it, voice is an instrument like any other - no work, no progress, and certainly not in 5 lessons. And sadly, but that's only my experience, "karaoke-singers" seem to be the least reliable and committed ones. No rule without exemption though - one of my former "karaoke-people" has been with me since I moved to the UK almost three years ago and meanwhile works as a semi-pro singer.

Therefore, I am always amazed if I hear things like: "I would be scared that my voice sounds too trained" or "I am happy with things the way they are". The latter is just not wanting to progress, which in my opinion is never good. Of course not everyone is a natural born singer, and not everyone has to take singing lessons for ages, but a bit of common sense should tell everyone interested in the voice as an instrument that there is work involved.

I am not having a go at you here, Lizzy, because if you never had voice lessons it is probably quite normal to see things like this. We all use our voices on a daily basis, hum along to the radio etc. But that would be like comparing making sounds on the violin (by just bowing around wildly) and really PLAYING it. The latter is not achievable in a handful of lessons, neither does this happen with the voice.
And a trained voice does not have to sound classical, these are outmoded views from the olden times. The important thing would be that you find a teacher who actually sings and teaches the style you prefer. And I can guarantee that if you find the right person, your voice won't sound overtrained or classical at all, but it will build up range, endurance and will last longer, hopefully until the last day of your life. And you will not sound like "everyone else" - in fact, vocal training brings out the true individuality of your voice, so the extreme opposite is the case.

David, I also know the problem with the fortnightly slots, I'm still trying to work my way round it, but not very successfully. The only thing we possibly could do is not offering fortnightly fixed slots at all and have those people coming in one-off, but that in return would cause other problems I am quite sure (they tend to not be the most reliable ones, so this probably would mean chasing after money half of the time).

Mezzo : I agree totally, bad attitude is completely unnecessary in students. When someone tells me 'I'm happy with the way things are' I ask 'Why are you here then?'... the mind boggles.

AnnC - It's funny isn't it - you have experience of picking up people who have had dodgy non classical training and my experience is the reverse! I think that's probably down to the fact that France is VERY closed in the conservatoire system so almost all voice teachers here teach classical voice (or Jazz, which having seen these people at work, appears to be a lazy version of classical... not real Jazz at all) - so we get the whole gamut of teaching abilities in the classical vein here.

You're right too about the fact that things have gone very quickly for me... I can't get over it. I'm very grateful that people seem to have taken to my teaching style so well (it helps me pay the bills each month, for a start) and it's nice to know that I'm not the only one to see singing this way. Sometimes I'm sad that I have to do so much repair work from damaged voices, but I suppose that's part of the work load once your name gets around. That said, it seems like yesterday that I was setting out teaching (it was only three years ago that I mentioned to SarahFlute the possibility of taking my grade 8....) - I'm still very pleased to have my own teacher to fall back on should I have a really stuck case. It hasn't happened yet, but it's a reassuring feeling to know that he's there.

I don't understand why anyone would pay what is quite a lot of money for singing lessons and then not practise, whatever style it's in.

I think when I have had singing lessons, I've only not practised when I've not enjoyed the music. This was my fault for not being brave enough to ask for what I really wanted. I did grade 5 singing a few years ago and the repertoire was just not up my street and I acheived a merit but I know I didn't put the work in. I know now that there's more than one way to skin a cat and i *don't* have to do music that doesn't inspire me in order to get better.

Interesting to read this from a teachers point of view though. My husband is a guitar teacher and gets so annoyed with people who don't practise!