Hi everyone!

I don't often venture into the Strings forum, but my daughter is having problems with bowing. She's been learning the cello for a little over one year. Her teacher started her off holding her bow with thumb and all fingers on the outside of the bow (sorry, don't know what that sort of grip is called).

Teacher has now tried to get her to hold her bow properly, but she says it hurts her arm. I don't want to push the issue too hard as she's quite a tense child and had a problem with tennis elbow in her bowing arm just before the summer holidays - fortunately this was cured with a few sessions of physio and a three week break from her cello.

Will holding her bow the 'wrong' way hold her back, or is it not that important?

If it is important, is getting her to hold the bow properly for a few minutes each practice session and gradually increasing the amount of time holding the bow properly a good way to make the transition?

Sorry to sound so ignorant but I have no idea when it comes to bowed string instruments

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Holding the bow the wrong way will most definitely cause problems, if not now, then later on. If your daughter doesn't change her hold now, she will have to later, and, more to the point, the correct bowhold should be something where the hand is completely relaxed - if your daughter plays with a bad hand position, it will cause problems.

The important thing is not to override habit by "forcing" the hand into a different position. I'm not sure what you mean by "thumb and all fingers on the outside of the bow" - do you mean with straightish fingers, and is her teacher trying to get her to curve her thumb in, and her fingers? Clarification would make me more likely to be able to answer properly!

As for changing, you can do it the way you suggest, but I'd suggest rather to make the whole change immediately, and try to keep it. Get her to play with the new bowhold and reassess every couple of minutes to check that she hasn't changed back.

I had this problem when I was eight - a teacher I had at the very beginning had me holding the bow in a fist. It was a nightmare to change- but it didn't last very long, and now I rather like my bowhold

This sounds a bit like the bow hold she has now - using the ends of her fingers and thumb, but the thumb is on the outside of the bow, ie. on the flat part at the bottom of the frog. This hold also causes her to sometimes play with her thumb on the actual bow hairs...

I'll do what you suggested and get her to change to the new bow hold, perhaps shortening her practice sessions until she's used to it (she currently practices for half an hour). I'll also make sure that she doesn't tense up, as I'm sure this is what caused the tennis elbow in the first place, and will watch the angle of her wrist.

She idolises Yo-yo Ma so maybe watching a DVD or two of him will be an inspiration to her...

Thanks for your help!

No problem. In that case, she most definitely needs to change her bowhold - not only will the one she's using at the moment cause a massive amount of tension, but also it will be extremely difficult to do more advanced bowing technique, such as spiccato, or even effective bow changes.

Good luck to her - it's hard to change, but worth it. Let us know how she gets on.

[quote name='cellocase' date='Feb 1 2009, 12:54 PM' post='786697']
[quote name='shelley' post='786595' date='Jan 31 2009, 11:49 PM']
[quote name='cellocase' post='786387' date='Jan 31 2009, 02:58 PM']
I had this problem when I was eight - a teacher I had at the very beginning had me holding the bow in a fist. It was a nightmare to change- but it didn't last very long, and now I rather like my bowhold
[/quote]



Good luck to her - it's hard to change, but worth it. [/quote]

So true. It will feel odd at first, but if you can help her it will make such a difference later on. . .and I speak as someone who had to 'unlearn' an awkward bow hold!

We tried the new bow hold yesterday and things didn't go well. Turns out her teacher hasn't explained the hows and why's of holding the bow, so she doesn't really know what she's supposed to be doing or how it's supposed to feel.

To me her hand looked very stiff and inflexible (little finger stiff and straight, thumb bent outwards) and she said she couldn't control the bow properly, as well as it hurting her arm. Wrist was also at an unnatural-looking angle.

So I'll go to her lesson with her on Wednesday and ask her teacher to show us both what she's supposed to do. Hopefully then I'll be able to help her at home.

I've noticed lately that her articulation has been getting very sloppy as she's moved on to faster, more intricate phrases involving semiquavers, so it seems like it's definitely time to fix her bow hold. Makes me think teachers should be teaching the proper bow hold right from the start, especially with slightly older children (my daughter was nearly nine when she started)...

As a parent here, the correct bow hold does involve the wrist being at what looks like an unnatural angle. As for being taught the correct bow-hold from the start, my daughter was but she still does not always do it correctly (and this is after five years, although she started at six and a half so younger than your daughter). Her teacher showed me lots of times how to hold the bow correctly but I still found it hard to correct my daughter's position myself. I think it is something that takes a long time to put in place.

Yes, I agree that the correct bow hold will take time before my daughter gets it right and is comfortable with it, especially as she's so used to holding the bow the wrong way. At least if I know what she's supposed to be doing it'll be easier for me to help her get it right.

I definitely don't want to be telling her something different to what her teacher's told her!

Good idea to go along to your daughters lesson. Ask the teacher to show YOU how to do it yourself, to give you a good idea of what your daughter is trying to learn and why it might seem and feel tricky to start.

I am a violin teacher not a cellist, but this sounds to me like it might be a cello equivalent of the Suzuki bowhold which is often used to start off bowing for young children on the violin. I use it sometimes for younger pupils who may not have developed the strength or coordination to learn a good 'full' bow hold in the early stages. Many ARE reluctant to change at first but I use lots of stickers and role models of older pupils to convince them that it really is worth the effort.

Help and encourage your daughter gently, and laugh about how difficult it can be if that helps - above all get her to relax so that she avoids tension from the start as that is even harder to change if it becomes established.

Have just googled Suzuki bowhold and what my daughter is doing looks just like a cello version of the Suzuki violin bowhold.

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies - I'm sure we'll get the problem sorted somehow

Some feedback...
I went to a lesson with my daughter and the problem seems to be sorted now. She's got used to holding the bow properly and her playing is already improving as she now has more control. The pain she was experiencing in her arm has also stopped. She still needs to watch out for little things like her little finger going stiff and straight, but overall there's been a great improvement, and she's starting to enjoy playing again.

So thanks again for all the advice.

Good to hear!

Sounds like great progress. Although the proper bow hold can be tricky at first (especially if you are used to a variation), it will make playing both less painful and more controlled in the long term.

Just a suggestion for preventing tennis elbow returning. I got it really bad whilst doing my A-Levels and grade 8 cello and found that swimming really helped. It went away entirely after a couple of months. Didn't do anything strenuous just gentle lengths.

Good luck with getting the bow hold sorted.