Dear all,

Many of you have very talented musical children. Do you also find that they often have a natural instinct in mathematical learning/thinking? More and more I see this link in children around me, it would be fascinating to hear your stories and experiences on that.

It's quite common to find people who are good at both music and maths, but on the other hand there are musicians who are useless at maths and mathematicians who are totally unmusical, so whether it is more than a coincidence I don't know.

Chris

I'm not bad at maths but there are quite a few non-musicians in the school who are better than me.

We are very strong in Music and Maths. I have a degree in Maths and am somewhat musical. My daughter is very musical and doing very well with Maths too. I see music theory, up to Grade 5 anyway, to be applied mathematics.
Dora

Both of mine are very good at maths, but one is better than the other at music. The more musical one is about to start tackling theory seriously, so here's hoping there definitely is a link

Isn't there a piece of Mozart (in particular, as opposed to classical music in general) that's supposed to tie in with the mathematical part of the brain?

Dora, Interesting point you made abt G5 theory. I know 2 young mathematicians got distinctions in G5 theory when they were 8 and 9. Altho one of them is finding G6 theory much tougher to crack.

I am a maths teacher who does a lot of music, and my husband is a physics teacher! We met on a choral conducting course and we both had choral scholarships at Oxford. In the chapel choir that I sang in, there were six people reading Music, eight mathematicians, two engineers, one physicist and the other seven were pretty evenly spread across languages/English/other subjects! In any choir I've sung with there have always been almost as many maths teachers as there are music teachers.

Beth, 11, is currently doing Grade 6 Theory. So far it still seems very rule based and mathematical but that obviously won't go on forever.
Dora

I'm a maths geek and do maths-y stuff for a living. I was reading about the psychology of mathematicians in Mathematics Today recently (told you I was a geek) and it said that recent studies haven't shown that mathematicians are any more musical than say, physicists or biologists or whatever. And hardly any composers have been interested in real mathematics. But they were looking specifically at mathematicians rather than just science-y people.

I think that the sort of thinking that can make you good at music theory is quite similar to mathematical thinking. Also making music is supposed to be good for the brain, so it would probably help your maths skills. Other than that, I'm not sure that there's a closer link between maths and music than between say languages and music.

Yeah I'm quite maths'y with the physics degree and accountancy!

I agree that it does seem to make the theory side easy to grade 5, I managed to get a distinction in a couple of months. It is mostly rules and fractions! Although I find the remembering foreign terms really hard!

I don't think maths helps the actual interpretation of the music though, it helps you get the notes but not the feel. Then your arty side needs to kick in

Many years ago I did maths, music and biology A-levels. I was very aware that my brain was tackling the harmony and theory side of the music and the maths questions in the same way, which was different from the way it tackled the essay writing bit of the music and the biology, so there is a link in my brain at least.

My son is excellent at maths and good at music. My daughter, on the other hand, struggles with maths and can't seem to see patterns in it at all - but i suspect is the more musical of the two, and can see patterns in music.

So i suppose i have proved nothing with those observations!

Another sound mathematician and musician here.

If all art aspires to the condition of music, all the sciences aspire to the condition of mathematics. George Santanaya

Not here, sorry!

The child who has a real feel for maths has no strong interest in music (and took a while to develop a sense of rhythm). He tends to just "see" how to do maths, and always prefers to hack his own tortuous way through the jungle, rather than following any nice, neat textbook roads!

The child who showed a strong and early interest in music is not bad at math, but doesn't have the same instinctive sense of how to break down and process a mathematical problem, and seems to find geometry harder than algebra (also has a much weaker sense of direction than the strongly mathematical child).

However, the musical child is much more logical and sequential than the mathematical child, who tends to "chunk" things to the point where he finds it hard to explain his thinking. Mr. Music will go after any logical flaw like a shark after blood, though he is finally developing enough tact to keep his logical teeth out of sight, like a good MacHeath!

No 3 son is studying maths, further maths, physics and music A levels and wants to have a career which combines the physics and the music sides. He went for an interview at Royal Holloway for their physics with music degree where he met several others pursuing the same route. The student who showed us round said 'All the physics students seem to be musical, not just the ones on the joint course'.

However No 2 son, who is studying maths at Warwick, is the least musical of my three.

I've always been good at mathematics but not musical as in I don't play any musical instrument and can't sing in tune at all. But, somehow have always enjoyed listening to music and do have some sense of rhythm.

Daughter has always been very musical and also a natural mathematician, enjoys logical reasoning and prefers finding her own solutions to problems rather than tried and tested methods, finds repetitive maths at school tedious and boring, and loves algebra. Interestingly, she finds high level concepts very easy to grasp but at the same time doesn't engage with simple arithmetic- for example, often gets marks deducted for writing 3+6=8 or similar!!

I would say that musicians are more likely to be good at mathematics and/or logical reasoning, but not vice versa.

Is it not the case that statistically ability in both fields tends to occur together. But in any individual they can be good at one or other, good at both or good at neither, so no number of personal anecdotes will conclude one way or the other. Is there any published research on this?

And if they are correlated that just raises the next question of why? Do they use similar structures in the brain? Do they employ similar neural pathways. Are they both developed by similar kinds of early experience?

Or are they both natural results of a generally smart and well functioning individual. If we looked closer would we find correlations with language skills, strong memory for facts, skill with tools, sense of direction, athleticism, ... ??

Another complicating factor is that the person that learns he rudiments of a skill or foield of knowledge quickly and easily or at an early age is not necessarily the one naturally equipped to go the farthest in that field. That might be because our society gives more and better opportunities and more encouragement to those that show ability early in life, or take to a subject quickly.

I think there are published studies, but I've always thought that in the case of mathematics or language skills, the skills and abilities brought into play cover SUCH a wide range of human performance that "good at maths" is almost meaningless. Probably everybody (except me ) is good at some form of maths, if they don't lose interest or fail to master basic skills before they find their particular mathematical bent!

We fed and feted Airman's ability at maths just as enthusiastically as we fed Viohazard's music, and I often shudder to think how easily we might have missed (because parents are not so often involved in "school" skills) that chance to give him a skill he could rely on, enjoy, and feel good about.

And if we weren't in the Japanese school system, I often suspect that Viohazard would rank as "good at maths and music"...it's all smoke and mirrors!

One of the similarities between mathematics and music is that both are known for having child prodigies.



Sounds like she has all the traits needed to be a maths lecturer already. And of course, once you know the principles of arithmetic, surely it's fair to say that calculators were invented for a reason

Its interesting this subject, because I often find that music is very mathematical - especially theory etc.

But I am awful at maths! And I used to live with a girl doing an MA in Mathematics, but she was tone deaf and had no sense of rhythmn!

I also found out the other day that people with synethesia often are not very good at maths and have trouble with their left and right. (so true for me!!)
There is also a strong link between creativity/musicality and people with synesthesia, which leans towards musical people not necessarily being good at maths.


On the other hand, Vladimir Horowitz's family were distinguished scientists and economists in the Soviet at the time, which points at the opposit to my previous point!

It would be intruiging to see if anyone has done a study on this.

There are some really interesting links here on this website

http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/uses-math/music/

Also, this mentions link to a Nature paper which I was unable to find:

http://www.maa.org/mathland/mathland_5_29.html

This research below showed some casual links between music training improving maths but primarily concludes that listening to or playing music can lead to increased spatio-temporal reasoning

http://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/features/a...rt09202000.html

I'm going for this option!
(good at maths and music btw)

Speaking from a professional musicians point of view, I'm not certain that music and maths ALWAYS go together.

I dragged myself through a physics degree - as a challenge with a musician friend - but if I'm really honest we both struggled heavily with the maths content and neither of us enjoyed that part of the course. I think the way we got through it was by parrot fashion - work through enough specimen papers alongside the answers and you eventually learn how to answer the questions, albeit without actually understanding a thing!

More likely, what I (and other good musicians) do have, is a brain capable of analysing things and thinking logically on how to solve problems of technique and strategic thinking on things like fingering. This may be seen as similar to maths thinking, but I'm a far cry from mathematically minded.

I hated maths while at school, scraped a pathetic pass in the exam and now avoid the subject like the plague.

I'll hopefully be doing maths and uni in september but would probably do equally as well doing a music course! When I told people I was doing maths they were shocked as most expect me to do music! My old piano teacher had a maths degree! and there are plenty of people on here who do mathsy subjects at uni but are also great musicians! Also, 2 of my friends who do maths - one at oxford and one at warwick are both excellent musicians! Yet, on the other hand...I have a friend who plans to do maths at uni and has not a musical bone in her body! I spent a whole day once showing her music and teaching her the basics...but we didn't manage to get past major and minor...she really could not tell the difference between the two! After playing many examples of flowing, elegant music in a major key and then harsh, dischordant, loud music in a minor key...she still had no idea which was which! So there are definitely some exceptions!

I agree with those who said that the mathematically inclined tended to find theory easy, at least to grade 5. I've a degree in maths and always found theory easy, passing grade 5 several years before my practical skills needed me to have done it to take grade 6. I've a mathematical husband who discovered he could sing in his late 40s and a couple of mathematical/scientific friends who are also good amateur musicians.

I am appalling at maths (ask Bagpuss ) but a bit better at music (NOW - I wasn't always...)

Ho hum.

Son Airman's mechanical engineering class includes only two girls...one of whom was all set to go to a music high school to further her piano studies until she had a sudden change of heart! This is a hardcore sci/tech school, where the maths exams are usually given double time and double weight over all other subjects, but obviously she had what it took.

I'm particularly impressed by her parents, who seemed somewhat bemused on Parents' Day, but who were just as ready to support their daughter's maths as her music!

I'm going to do maths at uni and am pretty musicy.

Out of the five of us who applied from my college to do maths at Cambridge, at least three are grade 8 plus pianists. One of the others is a very good brass player, and the other I donät know anything about. Iäd have thought that shows a pretty good link between the two.

my daughter is showing signs of being musically talented. I have also been told a number of times by her teachers that she has a real nateral flare for maths and they are constantly trying to challenge her in the subject. So yes, she is good at both.
I, on the other hand have grade 8 on three instruments and a 1st class hons degree in music. I had to have extra help to scrape through my GCSE music!!!

I think in my case, i am very good at number work, but really struggle with the shape and space bits, so that is something I will look out for in my daughter as this element of maths becomes more complicated.

I might also add that I think my daughter is musically talented (which she gets from her dads side!) Whereas I just love music and worked REALLY hard at it, so perhaps there is something in that.

Its probably time to point out the ridiculousness of our school further maths set, two thirds were left handed, half were Chinese, one third musical, at least half went on to take physics degrees.

No 3 son scores three out of four there (he's not Chinese).

In slightly more detail - there were 6 of us. All the English ones were left handed and now have physics degrees and included the two musical ones. I think all three of us have higher degrees as well (although mine isn't physics).

I can't do Maths to save my life.

and I'm the only musical one in my family, whereas everyone else in my family, understands Maths, my brother doesn't play anything, is amazing at Maths, and does intermediate challanges and did Maths and futher Maths in sixth form and came out with As in both.



Yes, I am jealous of him and his mathamatical abilities

As a maths person, you should realise that a sample of 5 is hardly likely to yield statistically significant results! How musical are those in your college applying to Cambridge to read other subjects?

I think there's probably a link between doing well in music and doing well in academic subjects. This is largely because to do well at either you need the ability to persist in a task; most of your peers do not have this ability. In many schools anyone bright or hardworking enough to do it is encouraged to do Maths A-level; hence the apparent link between music and maths.

I think it must be coinidence. I am a talented musician, a singer and a violin player.

However I tried As maths and I found it so confuising that in the summer term I dropped out.

I just can't see a link betwene the two.

I think maths and any other real academic subject requires a persistent approach, which, as has been pointed out, is the same as being successful on a musical instrument.

To be good at maths and fluent in its techniques, one has to practice, practice, practice ad nauseum.

To be good at playing a musical instrument and fluent in its technique, one has to practice, practice, practice ad nauseum.

I think the connection is more likely to be in application of body and mind, than an innate link between the subject themselves.

In reply to another comment, that you need to be good at maths to be good at theory, I don't think that holds water. I took my Grade 5 theory having prepared for it myself, without any fomal lessons and passed with what would now be deemed as a Merit with 88 marks. When I sat my Grade 5 theory exam, my maths ability was dire.

I'm a maths person - did maths A level, then science degree and PhD. I now spend my working life building complicated spreadsheets and doing financial analysis.

In our weekly jazz class it's very obvious that all the exercises we do involving e.g. playing things in different keys, learning scale patterns, functional harmony, picking out what's happening with chord changes etc I'm a lot quicker at than the rest of the group, despite at least 2 of them having much better ear skills than I do. To me it's so similar to maths (in fact we tend to work in numbers for scale degrees) and the kind of algorithm development I do in my day job that it's almost an extension of it

I agree. I also don't think that those applying is a good indicator of intelligence, but that's just my opinion.
Coincidentally, out of the 8 of us in my further maths class, everyone applied to oxbridge and 5 got places. The three that didn't are all good at music, and of the 5 that did, only 2 are musical. (just to point out this wasn't for maths, but German+History, Nat Sci, Chemistry, Medicine and Economics).
x

Sorry, but I just have to say that people trying to turn music into maths is one of my pet hates. Anyone with good musical skills can, with practice, develop the same skills you have and to the same level. Basic analytical skills and a little application of logic is essential in any subject, but it doesn't take a mathematical mind to develop those skills, anyone can learn them.

Music is an expression of the soul and the emotions, not an extension of an equation. I've not known maths fill any deep emotional needs in my life, or indeed anyone elses.

You might change your mind if you were to read the story of Paul Erdos: The Man Who Loved Only Numbers by Paul Hoffman.

I'm not saying that anyone can't develop them, just that the nature of the work I do means that I've already developed them and don't really have to work too hard at that part of music. Just as my friend who has fantastic ear skills didn't have to work hard at learning to play by ear, I've had to put a lot of effort into that over the last couple of years, but I've now got to the stage where, if not quite as quick as she is I'm still a lot better than I was. You're right - anyone can develop whatever skills are missing provided they're prepared to put the effort in.

Nor did I say that the items I picked out above were all there was to music - far from it, they're just one small part of the set of skills a good musician needs to develop.

Nor am I trying to turn music into maths, just pointing out that some of the skills a musician needs may come more easily to someone who's used to thinking in that way already.

Oh, I do have to admit though, I do see a kind of beauty in maths at times

Yep. For Paul Erdos mathematics filled essentially every need in his life - he found his friends through their love of mathematics, and his employment through mathematics - and it certainly was an expression of his soul. He was a bit odd, but most mathematicians find mathematics beautiful, and its generally considered to be the case that the most beautiful and/or elegant solutions are the most true/useful.

None of that means that any particular person need find mathematics beautiful, and is more or less independent of the fact that any analytical skills will help with grasping music theory quickly, and maths is analytical. I don't think people need to apologise for that. I also think that some of the skills used in music are similar to language skills, some are similar to drama skills, some are similar to sport/fitness skills...

Life isn't pigeonholed into subject disciplines, so I feel that I can use the skills that I've learnt elsewhere to benefit my music. Or use my music skills to benefit other areas.

To be good at maths and fluent in its techniques, one has to practice, practice, practice ad nauseum.

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Sorry this just isn't true. It really did just come naturally to me. I still remember doing my O level and going to the first exam to find my friends revising from notebooks. It was a horrible moment. I hadn't revised and I didn't have a notebook. It wasn't that I was overconfident. It just all seemed so straightforward to me.
I did of course spend hours and hours doing mathematical things for the fun of it but it wasn't work.
I did do some revision for A level but not a lot.
So for me in that sense at least I don't see a link between music and maths.
Dora

Did you know that logic is a branch of mathematics?
I suspect that maths does fill the kind of deep emotional needs in my life that you are talking about. Nothing like the needs that children, family and friends meet of course.

I don't think that most of us are trying to turn music into maths though. I'm not good enough at music to express what I want to say so please forgive me. Music has "rules" just as English uses grammar and those "rules" are where I see the link with Maths. But it takes much more than an excellent understanding of grammar to write great literature and it takes much more than a sound grasp of those rules to write great music. So I see maths at the heart of music but I you can't reduce music to a set of equations.

Dora (sad that today, yet again, a final year accounting student got out a calculator to work out 12 x 10)

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if someone has made this point already: it really annoys me when people try to justify music in education because it "is helpful for maths". Why do we always have to justify music?? No-one ever says maths is "helpful for art" - it's just accepted as being valuable in its own right.

So maths 'thickies' like me should be useless at music then? My musical skills are as innate as all those posting on here with their maths skills. Apart from the aural tests - because of my lack of vocal chord control - there is nothing I have struggled with in music and yet maths has been my worst and most reviled subject ever since I can remember. Maths lessons at school were pure torture, while my music lessons were something I was just good at. I didn't even have to try, I could just do it.



Logic isn't just a branch of mathematical computation. The term also refers to the simple process of ordered thought - the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study. It comes from the Greek logikos of reason or speech. A mathematical mind is not necessary for mental reasoning or structured thought.



I've read it and he was a very strange person. I'm not saying that some musicians (performing arts persons) throughout history haven't been slightly odd - maybe that's the price of genius - but maths does have a fairly outstanding reputation for odd people.

I still cannot link maths with music. From the hundreds of professional musicians I've known and met over the years, I can still only count on one hand how many of them are good at maths, and when I say maths, I'm talking about proper maths, not basic arithmetic.

Perhaps my (tested and confirmed) IQ of 153 is why I don't need maths. My scoring on these tests came from a combination of the spatial awareness - essential for playing a musical instrument - and vocabulary/verbal reasoning. And yet, I was thrown out of both my French and German classes at secondary school for being so poor at languages.

Computation is *not* mathematics, just a small part, just as logic is part of mathematics, probably a more important part. That's why many of the best mathematicians can't calculate for toffee, and why computers are excellent at computation but lousy at maths.

Whether maths ability and musical ability are directly related, I'm still dubious about. What I have noticed is that people who are good at maths or physics are often good at lots of other things too, and if they are good at music they often choose not to be professional musicians because they can earn a good living doing something else and still enjoy playing music as a hobby. I reckon most professional musicians couldn't imagine themselves doing anything else as a career.

Chris

I can do lots of other things, mostly practical stuff, definitely not academic!



I wouldn't agree with that. Speak to most physicists and see what they earn. Academia and research don't pay. Unless you happen to strike lucky - and that doesn't include going into finance these days - you'll be on a fairly meagre wage in science. Most scientists wouldn't want to do any other job either, even if they are still struggling to pay the bills on their poor pay.



For many, it's the only thing they can do. Although music degrees have moved on and we get a well rounded education these days that includes teaching skills, business management, performing arts admin, IT skills etc. etc., those in the 50+ age group weren't so lucky. Many of them graduated after spending three years doing nothing other than playing their first study instrument. If they failed to work as performers, most of them wouldn't have any job at all. Some of them have never even used a computer!

Only a small majority of music graduates will ever go into music full-time, most will end up in jobs totally unrelated to music, or decide to work in music part-time and pursue other options alongside.

In fact, in the current climate, I think there will be a lot of intelligent unemployed people who will be expected to go and sweep streets just to earn their Jobseekers Allowance....

EDIT: and in any case, the number of pupils studying subjects such as maths or science (esp. physics) is falling rapidly. University departments are closing down because they simply don't have enough students.

That's not what I said, nor what I believe. If you choose to interpret it that way it's up to you.

So why do many science and maths people think music, or arts in general, are only studied by those who are of lower intelligence? Arts graduates are generally pigeon-holed by science graduates as not bright enough to have studied a purely academic subject.

That in itself backfires in the very faces of those who say maths and music go together..........