Hi
I don't know if this topic has been done before, but how much have any of you had to outlay for your child's instrument. Our daughter changed from being a flautist (we bought a flute for £1,300) to being a bassoonist. The school's bassoon was extremely old and in poor shape but fortunately for us a charitble trust bought us a new one worth £3,000, to be returned when she upgrades. She now needs to upgrade and if she wants to take the bassoon seriously, i.e. to conservatoire level, then the cost of a new one is £16,000. It is such a dilemma - we don't want to limit her options but it does seem an obscene amount to pay. We have gathered grants of £3,000. Knowing the quality of a secondhand one is tricky for us although her teacher is just recommending a secondhand one for £11,000 which we will probably go for.

Anybody else had to do large outlays?

Does she REALLY need the upgrade?
If she does then she'll be at the stage where she'll need to try out whatever instruments are within the pirce range you are able to pay to find out which suits her best.

One reason I ask the question is that I know of a professional bassoonist who has never upgraded his instrument but still plays his student one as he's satisfied with the tone.

Why not approach somewhere like Howarths that will know the quality of Bassoons and get their advice.

I didn't realise Bassoons were that expensive!

£16,000 is a great deal of money.
We took our son to try a new Cornet out on Saturday. He wasn't keen, until he tried it. :-)
So now I need to lay my hands on £1,500
Over the next few years I'm going to have to spring £2,500 for a piccolo and £2,500 for a better flute. I suspect I'll be adding at least one additional sax to the mix too.
Good luck
Dora

That's the full retail catalogue price (i.e. not the street price) of a mid-range Yamaha bassoon here in Japan...so out of curiosity I checked, and found that Trevor Jones in the UK has them for a lot less, as well as other options.

Hope you have a bit of time up your sleeve to consider your options.

Thanks for your replies - no other parents of bassoonists around though. We have thoroughly researched and tried out bassoons. The reputable bassoons at the professional range are Puchner, Fox and possible Yamaha. I'm afraid Trevor James doesn't register as a serious contender. There are a few bassoons in the £8,000 range but it seems keeping her top of the student range one would suffice as much. I'm surprised that a professional bassoonist is still using a student bassoon as at my daughter's NYO audition they said her bassoon would need up-grading. I wish we'd stayed with the flute! Generally music is a very expensive pursuit.

To be honest I think that you are bowing to pressure to a degree. That's not a criticism by the way as it's something we all do. My daughter's teacher went to conservertoire with a Graduate Oboe. I would be seriously considering if I needed to make the leap to professional just at this moment. £16,00 is a lot of money, especially when you are also supporting your daughter's education.

Yesterday we travelled to Hitchin, the home of the Benslow Trust to collect a violin they have now loaned to my daughter. She has struggled on with a student model and we could not afford to spend the £1000's needed to get her a violin which was suitable for her needs.

Benslow also loan Bassoons and there must be other places that do the same. If money is no object it would surely be better to go for the best you can in the hope you do not need to cahnged it again.

Here's a bassoonist parent, in answer to your request.
We bit the bullet and bought a bassoon last autumn after - like you - using kindly-loaned instruments for several years. I know of several families who've spent the kind of sums you are talking about. I gather double basses are worse, but that's not much consolation.
We were fortunate and spent somewhat less (although still more than we'd hoped), but bassoon is her 'second' instrument. Her teacher was marvellous and helped her audition a good many intruments, old and new - seems you likewise have that kind of support. (Also, we were able to go to Howarths and they were very helpful and even more patient). In the end we were happy that she has an instrument she loves to play, and it will last her. Those were the key criteria.
On the plus side, it's about the only investment we've made in the last five years that hasn't fallen in value.
She did write to Benslow earlier in the year, by the way, but they had no bassoons at the time, but suggested she try again. However, she's heading towards the end of her school years and we didn't want her to reach the point where she had to hand one back and have no instrument of her own (although I think they are quite generous with time in that respect)
Good luck

Just in passing - the Trevor James prices I mentioned weren't for TJ instruments but for other brands they sell...don't know if their site is representative of UK bassoon prices but they were mostly in the 8-11K range, thought. (No Heckel etc though).

Thanks for the note about Trevor James - i had misunderstood. Also thanks Listener - it is good to know we are not alone. We have been down to Howarth's twice and to the bassoon shows and had bassoons on trial - it is not an investment you take lightly, but as you say the resale value is going to stay high. we are making it clear to our daughter that if ever she turns her back on the world of bassooning then it is ours to resell and not hers. The bassoon we buy will now take her throughout her career if she continues to choose a musical career. If we choose to upgrade to a £8,000 one now, it is likely she will have to upgrade again at conservatoire stage. I think we have been fortunate to have come across a very good quality seconhand one at £11,000. We are not well off enough to take this decision lightly but are capable of withstanding a loan. Wd had also looked at benslow but the bassoons they had were at the same range as her current one and also I think you have to bite the bullet some time. All of this had not crossed our minds when our daughter took up the bassoon.

Parent who is a bassoonist here - yes, top-of-the-range bassoons are very expensive.

I've been playing on the same Schrieber bassoon (now about 50 years old), for the last 30 years or so, and it's a basic model, no high D key for example, very few rollers and to be honest looking a bit battered, but it has a very good sound and plays pretty well in tune. I also use a Fox crook which makes a big difference. This instrument cost £500 second-hand when I got it, and I used it in NYO and played professionally on it. I spent another £500 on it last year, getting it super-padded and overhauled.

To make it worth while upgrading I know I'd have to spend > £10,000, but I can't justify that since I'm only play as an amateur now. A few weeks ago I went into Howarths and tried out some of the bassoons including a £16,000 Puchner, but I can't say I was taken with any of them - they all seemed stuffy compared to my instrument (though to be fair I was playing on borrowed reeds).

I'm not sure what the moral of that is, except that you may be able to find a good second hand instrument for a lot less, and in the end what counts is how your daughter gets on with the instrument.

Chris

Is your daughter's school able to assist with purchasing the instruments under the VAT scheme? Briefly, many education authorities will, in effect, purchase a suitable instrument for a student - at full shop price, whatever you can negotiate, including the VAT - then 'sell on' the instrument to the student at the same price but NOT including the VAT, so, currently a saving of 15%. Different authorities vary in how they interpret the requirements - some authorities specify that you have to be having lessons with their teachers, others are far more flexible and help with instrument purchase if lessons are taken out of school provided that students are studying for either GCSE or A level music.

The scheme to which Minstrel refers is the Assisted Instrument Purchase Scheme. There are further details of it on the Howarths website.

Although it won't cover the full purchase price, the Take It Away scheme offers an interest-free loan of up to £2000 for instrument purchases. As ever, shop around for the most competitive rates if you're borrowing money (although you can't do much better than 0% ).

Try ebay. You sometimes pick up a good bargain. We are on the lookout for a cornet for my 8 year old daughter. I spoke to my conductor who plays trumpet and asked for tips on buying and that's what he said – ebay. No matter what level of instrument you are looking for someone has one for sale for a good price.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE if you are going down the ebay route (and most people actually would recommend that you don't). At this sort of level, I would advise trialling lots of instruments- not something you can do on Ebay because everyone is different and suits different things/wood types or whatever. However, if you do decide to go down the Ebay route...

Check that what they're asking for the instrument is what is in a) in the picture, b) realistic for the make,
e.g. if there's a so called professional open hole flute with B foot joint flute going and the minimum setting is say £100, chances are there's something dodgey going on.

Check the details carefully, does it come with case/ cleaning/reeds/ are all the keys in working order...don't ever fall in to the belief that people will be selling brilliant quality goods, look carefully, why are they selling it in the first place etc etc etc

Sometimes you get lucky, i must admit i got a good maple moeck descant off ebay for £60, in complete working order, great condition (can do the full range easily) it was just the case needed replacing and the person didn't want it anymore. But my dad looked carefully at the picture (being a recorder player) and exactly what the decription was saying.

But particularly instruments like bassoon's/clarinets/flutes with complex mechanisms or reeds you have to be oh so careful when looking at Ebay products and make sure you do your reseach around what it's actually saying- particularly if no picture is available.

Good Luck

At this price level I would want to try out instruments carefully on approval and be assured of fantastic aftersales support....... not something you often find on ebay.

[quote name='interesteredparent' post='793319' date='Feb 16 2009, 06:07 PM']
Hi
I don't know if this topic has been done before, but how much have any of you had to outlay for your child's instrument. Our daughter changed from being a flautist (we bought a flute for £1,300) to being a bassoonist. The school's bassoon was extremely old and in poor shape but fortunately for us a charitble trust bought us a new one worth £3,000, to be returned when she upgrades. She now needs to upgrade and if she wants to take the bassoon seriously, i.e. to conservatoire level, then the cost of a new one is £16,000. It is such a dilemma - we don't want to limit her options but it does seem an obscene amount to pay. We have gathered grants of £3,000. Knowing the quality of a secondhand one is tricky for us although her teacher is just recommending a secondhand one for £11,000 which we will probably go for.

Anybody else had to do large outlays?
[/quote]

I spent many years driving my eldest around for music stuff. In all that time her tuba was worth more than the car!!


[quote name='fluterocks' post='794591' date='Feb 19 2009, 02:33 PM']
[quote name='Ed the Tread.' post='794503' date='Feb 19 2009, 11:42 AM']
Try ebay. You sometimes pick up a good bargain. We are on the lookout for a cornet for my 8 year old daughter. I spoke to my conductor who plays trumpet and asked for tips on buying and that's what he said – ebay. No matter what level of instrument you are looking for someone has one for sale for a good price.
[/quote]


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE if you are going down the ebay route (and most people actually would recommend that you don't). At this sort of level, I would advise trialling lots of instruments- not something you can do on Ebay because everyone is different and suits different things/wood types or whatever. However, if you do decide to go down the Ebay route...

Check that what they're asking for the instrument is what is in a) in the picture, b) realistic for the make,
e.g. if there's a so called professional open hole flute with B foot joint flute going and the minimum setting is say �100, chances are there's something dodgey going on.

Check the details carefully, does it come with case/ cleaning/reeds/ are all the keys in working order...don't ever fall in to the belief that people will be selling brilliant quality goods, look carefully, why are they selling it in the first place etc etc etc



Completely agree with this.
We spent 4 hours testing out identical instruments in the shop. Then jumbled them up and he could still pick out the same one again that he liked best, they varied so much and these were all new with a guarantee. My son's teacher has little collection of ebay disaster buys from pupils . . . . . . contact the seller and ask if you can visit and try the instrument . . .run a mile if they say no!

We would never buy from ebay at this price, although we have sold two beginner flutes successfully on ebay. We received a good price and gave an instrument worthy of its price. It is also difficult to buy secondhand at this price because of the investment we are making. we are not knowledgable about the finer points of bassoons and would need expert advice in order to buy secondhand. Although you can go on make to a large degree, each individual bassoon has a slightly different sound and feel even from ones that are the same make. I think my daughter is waiting for the one that will 'talk' to her (I am impressed about how she is able to differentiate between the bassoons so well because I initially did not think she would be musically mature enough to do so). Anyway she is trying a secondhand one today which is apparently really good quality and a lot cheaper than new so i am keeping my fingers crossed that she likes it.

When you find an instrument that your daughter likes, remember to as her teacher to take a look at it before you commit to buying it.

Yes, Thanks. It's all being done with the teacher's advice. I'm out of my depth otherwise.

QUOTE: "waiting for the one that will 'talk' to her"

Yes, that's familiar. Hope this one does talk to her.

Our daughter burst into tears on discovering the price of the one that spoke to her - and we were looking a tier down from you. Unfortunately she had by then whittled it down to two and the other was (unbeknownst to her until she had made her choice), a relative bargain. But despite its beautiful sound, it remained mute as far as she was concerned. Although I can't tell one end of a bassoon from another, I could see why she much preferred the one she did. Interestingly, though, when she auditioned them in front of a number of far more knowledgeable people, there was a 50:50 split. She stuck with her choice (decision making is not normally her strong point, so good on her).

Am I unkind in taking consolation from the fact that we are not alone in finding the process agonizing? On the bright side, although most bassoonists' parents are probably postponing retirement by a decade or two to pay for their offsprings' instruments, ordinary working life seems a breeze once you have that sorted.

Seeing my daughter try out Recorders a couple of weeks ago, it's not just the parents of Bassoonists who find themselves in this situation. We all go through it but the hole left in our pockets is possible not always quite as deep. Having said that I wouldn't like to try and add up what I've spent on instruments in the last 18 months

I'm starting to worry that what I've spent on instruments in the last two years is just a drop in the ocean. I understand that the Guildhall is recommending that students have flutes around the 10,000 pound mark. Add in a piccolo at several thousand pounds and I'm starting to worry. Conservatoire fees this year are 3,600 and sax lessons, exams, accompanists, music, travel, concert tickets and services are on top of that. I really think that no matter how I juggle all this I'm not going to be able to manage this all. We retire at the same time the children go to university.
Maybe she'll opted for maths instead.
Dora

Hi Dora - this seems rather a lot. When I was looking at flutes in the summer most of the 'advanced' and 'conservatoire' models were in the £2500-4500 price band (although they are now retailing around £800-1000 higher due to the exchange rates). Most 'conservatoire' and 'professional' piccolos seem to be between £1800-3000. There are plenty of professional flute players who play instruments which would now be classed as 'advanced' or 'conservatoire' models rather than professional ones - so I'm really not sure where they are getting this £10,000 figure from. Have a look on the websites for All Flutes Plus and Just Flutes - hopefully these might reassure you a bit.

Good plan to retire then - they should get good grants, as your income will have dropped, so won't build up as much debt. Although it's nice to help children through university, they are beginning to be responsible for themselves by that stage, and should be finding jobs in the holidays to supplement their student loans and help them afford to pay for music lessons themselves. You shouldn't feel you have to fund it all.

Music is such an expensive hobby! If your daughter does want to become a professional musician, high quality instruments are a must, but she may be able to recoup some of it in fees eventually. If she decides to keep it as a hobby and do Maths at uni you can probably get away with buying a good second-hand flute. I'm sure there was a recent thread about grants available to talented students to help them buy instruments.

I know exactly what you mean especially as we are in a similar position ourselves. My daughter's current Oboe is a graduate Model. I paid vey little for it from ebay, I was lucky, I knew when I bought it because of the name that I could trade/re-sell and get my money back even if it was in need of a lot of work.

Financial constraints is one of the reasons we haven't encouraged daughter to apply for Junior Conservertoire. This might be a good year to do so our financial circumstances are changing.

I've been looking at bursaries for a Cor Anglais for Emsoboe, fingers crossed she may get something towards one.

It's a big worry though

i wish you luck in getting money for your Cor Anglais. May I ask where the bursary is from?

My son is still playing (University orchestra, post grade 8) on his £2500 Schreiber bassoon, but fortunately he IS studying Maths so will not be pushing for an upgrade. Again fortunately he can borrow the university contrabassoon when necessary for orchestra - now one of those is certainly worth more than my car (almost the size of my car, too!)

As a bassoonist, I would recommend definitely trying out different instruments to see what they feel/sound like. The keywork varies on different models (flatter or more rounded keys for example) and so you have to try them out to see if you like the way they feel, how the rollers work etc.

I bought a good secondhand one from Howarths a few years ago but Adler, Fox, and Schreiber all make perfectly good models for music college. I rang Howarths up and they got a range of different instruments out for me to try - new/secondhand - I met my teacher there as well so I also had a second opinion. You can take one home for a week to play on it properly, get used to it etc before making a final decision - I can't remember the fee for this but it's like a week's insurance and if you don't take it back or call them to say you want to keep it, then the full payment is taken. That's how I did it anyway.

There are also schemes through local music services to aid purchase of new instruments - a parent I knew through a wind orchestra I was in, purchased a new Fox bassoon for her daughter through their local music service. She was advanced level at that point.



Louise

We have bought a seconhand professional bassoon about 10 years old and very well looked after. It will take our daughter through conservatoire and beyond if she so chooses. It was along process of choosing and, I believe, a bit of luck that one came up at the right time with such personal recommendation.

So glad that you have got sorted. I hope your daughter gets lots of pleasure form her new instrument.

Congratulations at finding a suitable instrument. It often takes time to find an instrument that you like and in good condition. I hope your daughter will enjoy it and that it serves her well.