Forums > Bach 3 Part Inventions- Level?

lilred

Feb 23 2009, 08:06 PM

Hello all-

I feel a bit odd posting here, its been many years since my piano days! Please don't throw things at me

However, all that must change as I am applying for a course in which pianistic proficiency is required. The audition requirements state that, among other things, one must prepare a freely chosen Bach piece, at least on the same level of difficulty as the Bach 3 part Inventions.

I have no idea how these correspond to grade levels, but if someone could hazard an approximation I'd be very grateful, it will help me in choosing the rest of my programme too! I know there are 15, but making sweeping generalisations will be a good thing here

I just need to know whether or not I should quit now, while I'm ahead, or give it a bash. I quit piano while preparing for grade 7, about 8 years ago, but have played away a bit in my own time.

Mad Tom

Feb 23 2009, 11:14 PM

QUOTE(lilred @ Feb 23 2009, 10:06 PM)

Hello all-

I feel a bit odd posting here, its been many years since my piano days! Please don't throw things at me

However, all that must change as I am applying for a course in which pianistic proficiency is required. The audition requirements state that, among other things, one must prepare a freely chosen Bach piece, at least on the same level of difficulty as the Bach 3 part Inventions.

I have no idea how these correspond to grade levels, but if someone could hazard an approximation I'd be very grateful, it will help me in choosing the rest of my programme too! I know there are 15, but making sweeping generalisations will be a good thing here

I just need to know whether or not I should quit now, while I'm ahead, or give it a bash. I quit piano while preparing for grade 7, about 8 years ago, but have played away a bit in my own time.

Rough guess, Grade 7 and above ... at least if they are to be played well.

pianodub

Feb 23 2009, 11:27 PM

QUOTE(Mad Tom @ Feb 23 2009, 11:14 PM)

QUOTE(lilred @ Feb 23 2009, 10:06 PM)

Hello all-

I feel a bit odd posting here, its been many years since my piano days! Please don't throw things at me

However, all that must change as I am applying for a course in which pianistic proficiency is required. The audition requirements state that, among other things, one must prepare a freely chosen Bach piece, at least on the same level of difficulty as the Bach 3 part Inventions.

I have no idea how these correspond to grade levels, but if someone could hazard an approximation I'd be very grateful, it will help me in choosing the rest of my programme too! I know there are 15, but making sweeping generalisations will be a good thing here

I just need to know whether or not I should quit now, while I'm ahead, or give it a bash. I quit piano while preparing for grade 7, about 8 years ago, but have played away a bit in my own time.

Rough guess, Grade 7 and above ... at least if they are to be played well.

I agree.

lilred

Feb 24 2009, 09:25 AM

Oh dear...

Mad Tom

Feb 24 2009, 05:18 PM

QUOTE(lilred @ Feb 24 2009, 11:25 AM)

Oh dear...

Don't get discouraged so soon. It is amazing how quickly the skill comes back, and even more amazing how much and how quickly you can improve when you really work at it ... at any age.

Why not start with a couple of 2-part inventions to get your mind and fingers around polyphony, them progress to one or two movements from a French Suite (say No 5), and then have a go at one of the 3-part inventions?

IPB Image

Robodoc

Feb 25 2009, 12:08 AM

Not all the 3 part Inventions (aka Sinfonias) are grade 7: All of them have been set in the past and the grades at which they were set were:

6 Sinfonia 01
7 Sinfonia 02
6 Sinfonia 03
7 Sinfonia 04
7 Sinfonia 05
6 Sinfonia 06
7 Sinfonia 07
7 Sinfonia 08
7 Sinfonia 09
6 Sinfonia 10
6 Sinfonia 11
6 Sinfonia 12
6 Sinfonia 13
7 Sinfonia 14
7 Sinfonia 15

The slow number 11 is particularly beautiful.

Like anything, to play any of them really well you need to be a grade or two better than this, but why should that worry you?

Having said that, the source I got this list from gives every single prelude and fugue as grade 7 including those that are on the DipABRSM and LRSM repertoire lists !??

maggiemay

Feb 25 2009, 09:39 AM

If anyone is interested, I believe BBC radio three is reviewing recordings of the two- and three-part inventions this coming Saturday morning.

Oldpiano

Feb 25 2009, 10:14 AM

QUOTE(maggiemay @ Feb 25 2009, 09:39 AM)

If anyone is interested, I believe BBC radio three is reviewing recordings of the two- and three-part inventions this coming Saturday morning.

Great! Thanks for the heads-up

lilred

Feb 26 2009, 10:50 PM

Thank you for all the advice, ye're great! I'm going to give it a bash so. Actually, while I have your attention, I was wondering if anyone could recommend a manageable 1st Mvt of a Haydn sonata? I was playing through op 16 nos 1 and 6 (in g and c-could be mixed up!) I like them alot-but am a bit worried that I sightread them without problems- are they a bit too easy to appear on a programme with the 3 part inventions?? Or am I missing fine pianistic details that make it hard? (I'm a pianistic philistine, I'm sorry!)

fsharpminor

Feb 27 2009, 11:12 AM

I have played all 52 of them.

For first movement of Grade 7 standard I would look at:-

Hob XVI No 33 in D, No 37 in D, No 41 in Bflat, No 43 in A flat, No 45 in Eflat

Another really good one is No 49 in E flat but has recently been set for Grade 8

The earlier ones are a bit variable in quality, although doubtless many are of about the standard you need. The more mature, and generally much better written ones are from about No 30 onwards . Two easier ones are Nos 39 and 40.

QUOTE(fsharpminor @ Feb 27 2009, 11:02 AM)

I have played all 52 of them.

For first movement of Grade 7 standard I would look at:-

Hob XVI No 33 in D, No 37 in D, No 41 in Bflat, No 43 in A flat, No 45 in Eflat

Another really good one is No 49 in E flat but has recently been set for Grade 8

The earlier ones are a bit variable in quality, although doubtless many are of about the standard you need. The more mature, and generally much better written ones are from about No 30 onwards . Two easier ones are Nos 39 and 40.

Sorry weve gone

now ! Its supposed to be Bach Inventions

denmark77

Feb 27 2009, 11:17 AM

All 52 ....??? I'm very impressed.

I agree with fsharpminor, Haydn's later sonatas are better in terms of the quality of the writing, but obviously they are more difficult technically too than the earlier ones.

A programme which includes a Bach Three-Part Invention and the first movement from a Haydn sonata (no. 30+) sounds ideal to me, and would definitely be in the range of Grade 7 standard. Plus it would feature some of my fave music... Can anyone turn up and listen in? Please?

denmark

lilred

Feb 27 2009, 11:32 AM

QUOTE

Can anyone turn up and listen in? Please? tongue.gif

If you want to watch a poor cello player masquerading as a pianist ( and a bad one at that!) make a total eejit of herself then be my guest!!

Mad Tom

Feb 27 2009, 12:16 PM

On Haydn Sonatas:

QUOTE(fsharpminor @ Feb 27 2009, 01:12 PM)

I have played all 52 of them.

Have you thought of recording them?

Few of the well known artists of today play more than a handful of them. Lang Lang does a few. Brendel used to.

No-one has done a complete set since John McCabe's ages ago - and his are very nice to listen to, and admirable in many respects, but they are not exactly what Haydn wrote - too much pedal, rather slow tempi (when Haydn was reputed to like brisk upbeat tempi), a lot of extra ornaments, and a disregsard of many of Haydn's dotted and dashed notes, and even of some of his dynamic markings

Glenn Gould started a project and tragically died after recording only six of them (fortunately six of the best, and magnificent recordings they are too)

So we are ready for someone to deliver the ultimate interpretations.

fsharpminor

Feb 27 2009, 12:56 PM

QUOTE(Mad Tom @ Feb 27 2009, 12:16 PM)

On Haydn Sonatas:

QUOTE(fsharpminor @ Feb 27 2009, 01:12 PM)

I have played all 52 of them.

Have you thought of recording them?

Few of the well known artists of today play more than a handful of them. Lang Lang does a few. Brendel used to.

No-one has done a complete set since John McCabe's ages ago - and his are very nice to listen to, and admirable in many respects, but they are not exactly what Haydn wrote - too much pedal, rather slow tempi (when Haydn was reputed to like brisk upbeat tempi), a lot of extra ornaments, and a disregsard of many of Haydn's dotted and dashed notes, and even of some of his dynamic markings

Glenn Gould started a project and tragically died after recording only six of them (fortunately six of the best, and magnificent recordings they are too)

So we are ready for someone to deliver the ultimate interpretations.

. I said I had played all of them but I didnt say 'well enough to record them all' !. Of course none are really harder than Dip A level, so I should be able to play them well enough with practice.
I could say, 'Why dont you try' ?!!

missypiano

Feb 27 2009, 01:41 PM

QUOTE(fsharpminor @ Feb 27 2009, 11:12 AM)

I have played all 52 of them.

Wow!!!
I also seem to recall in another thread that to refresh your memory on which Mozart sonatas were hardest/easiest you had played them all in the space of a few days??!!!!

I hope one day I can hear you play!!!! You sound like an amazing pianist!!!

fsharpminor

Feb 27 2009, 03:36 PM

QUOTE(missypiano @ Feb 27 2009, 01:41 PM)

QUOTE(fsharpminor @ Feb 27 2009, 11:12 AM)

I have played all 52 of them.

Wow!!!
I also seem to recall in another thread that to refresh your memory on which Mozart sonatas were hardest/easiest you had played them all in the space of a few days??!!!!

I hope one day I can hear you play!!!! You sound like an amazing pianist!!!

Not really, just an enthusiatic amateur ! But yes , I think it was in September I set myself the task of playing all the Haydn/Mozart/Beethoven sonatas. (82 in all). It took about a month. In the case of Beethoven some are really beyond me, but at least I did attempt to play though them ! Some sections really were ropey

missypiano

Feb 27 2009, 04:04 PM

QUOTE(fsharpminor @ Feb 27 2009, 03:36 PM)

Not really, just an enthusiatic amateur ! But yes , I think it was in September I set myself the task of playing all the Haydn/Mozart/Beethoven sonatas. (82 in all). It took about a month. In the case of Beethoven some are really beyond me, but at least I did attempt to play though them ! Some sections really were ropey

This is amazing!! I'm impressed! It's always such an inspiration to hear from someone like you who enjoys playing so much and who has got such a huge repertoire!

HelenVJ

Feb 27 2009, 07:48 PM

QUOTE(Mad Tom @ Feb 27 2009, 12:16 PM)

On Haydn Sonatas:

QUOTE(fsharpminor @ Feb 27 2009, 01:12 PM)

I have played all 52 of them.

Have you thought of recording them?

Few of the well known artists of today play more than a handful of them. Lang Lang does a few. Brendel used to.

No-one has done a complete set since John McCabe's ages ago - and his are very nice to listen to, and admirable in many respects, but they are not exactly what Haydn wrote - too much pedal, rather slow tempi (when Haydn was reputed to like brisk upbeat tempi), a lot of extra ornaments, and a disregsard of many of Haydn's dotted and dashed notes, and even of some of his dynamic markings

Glenn Gould started a project and tragically died after recording only six of them (fortunately six of the best, and magnificent recordings they are too)

So we are ready for someone to deliver the ultimate interpretations.

Have you come across Ragna Schirmer, Tom? (Or anyone else interested in Haydn.) She hasn't yet recorded them all, but those that she has come near to my ideal - they just sparkle and dance. I'm not quite so keen on her Chopin, though.

Sorry to have continued the digression away fom JSB Inventions.

Sorry! Quotes went wrong on the above - my bit's the last 3 lines - re the wonderful Ragna Schirmer!

Mad Tom

Feb 27 2009, 11:15 PM

QUOTE(fsharpminor @ Feb 27 2009, 05:36 PM)

I set myself the task of playing all the Haydn/Mozart/Beethoven sonatas. (82 in all).

??

Haydn 52
Mozart 17, 18 or 19 depending on your point of view
Beethoven 32

= 101, 102 or 103

skylark

Feb 28 2009, 12:11 AM

QUOTE(missypiano @ Feb 27 2009, 01:41 PM)

QUOTE(fsharpminor @ Feb 27 2009, 11:12 AM)

I have played all 52 of them.

Wow!!!
I also seem to recall in another thread that to refresh your memory on which Mozart sonatas were hardest/easiest you had played them all in the space of a few days??!!!!

I hope one day I can hear you play!!!! You sound like an amazing pianist!!!

I *have* heard him play and he *is* an amazing pianist!