I wonder if Barry is referring to the Gloria at the end of canticles and psalms as opposed to the Gloria in the mass, which you have in mind.


I'm aware that some organists follow the 'tradition' as opposed to the 'rule' of no reeds in Lent. I certainly use less reeds than I otherwise would.

Yes, indeed Sundays are excluded from the 40 days of Lent. But I think it's important that the music and the liturgy in Lent take on more of a reflective mood in preparation for the great festival of Easter.

Sorry, I didn't realise



I totally agree.

There should be a great feeling of anticipation during Lent, especially musically. Come Easter Sunday and there's nothing more satisfying than letting rip on Thine be the glory and Christ the Lord Is Risen Today.

"I wonder if Barry is referring to the Gloria at the end of canticles and psalms as opposed to the Gloria in the mass, which you have in mind."

The service of Holy Communion in the Book of Common Prayer has no provision for omitting the Gloria during Lent or Advent. I was not referring to Morning or Evening Prayer.

There is a nasty tradition creeping of omitting the Gloria from the end of the psalms when one of these is sung at Holy Communion. Again, there is no justification for this, save 'liturgical fashion' - which I deplore.

Barry Williams

I see where you're coming from, and sympathise, but things do move on. Wasn't the BCP representative of liturgical fashion in 1662?

"Wasn't the BCP representative of liturgical fashion in 1662?"

Not really, for these was much less 'fashion' in liturgy in those days. It was the standard and norm, though it was never 'common speech' as Cranmer wrote in a deliberately 'high' style, owing much to Ciceronian Couplets and other common rhetorical devices of the period. (Rhetoric was taught at schools in those days.)

It is a pity that the Liturgical Commission has declined to use good modern English for the newer liturgies, preferring instead to use texts that are a pale imitation of Cranmer's strong prose style. They could not throw off the ghost of Cranmer! Since then it has only got worse.

However, 1662 is still the legal and theological norm, whatever some clergy may say. The Series I Wedding Service (which is the form invariably used for Royal Weddings) is still very popular. It is basically the 1662 service with the 'obey' removed and a certain purple passage neatly expunged. I would be very surprised if was ever discarded.

There are many quotes from the Book of Common Prayer in use in ordinary language - see the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations. The strength of Cranmer's language has ensured its longevity, though I am certain he would be horrified to find it had not been updated, for he was himself the ultimate reformer.

Barry Williams

That would indeed be a ticklish task for some brave body or other. I would forsee conflict, schism, tears.... business as usual, in fact.

Yes, and it is not just liturgy. Church does seem to generate the greatest possible unhappiness. Perhaps this accounts for the large number of organists who prefer not to hold posts.

Barry Williams

There's a lot of truth in that. An elderly friend of mine and an organist of over 70 years standing frequently says, "If you want aggro, go to church".

I wonder why it should be so?

It is a common fallacy that there is a shortage of organists. There is not and indeed never has been in the past forty or so years. There is merely a shortage of organists willing to play for church services.

The two most common reasons, from my experience of advising folk, are the appalling 'music' that organists are expected to play and the aggro. The latter often arises from incompetent persons holding a church office or position trying to make decisions about matters they know little or nothing about.

Barry Williams

Reminds me slightly of a story you may have heard......

Organist is playing a few minutes before the service.

Church official approaches console, and wants a word about some point of order in the service.

Organist stops improvisation on a diminished seventh, turns round faintly horrified and replies,

"how would you like it if I did that to you during your sermon?'

For some years I played at a church with an organ in a South side chancel gallery. One of the readers ('lay readers'), a nice chap, had a habit of coming up to the console and saying 'Don't stop playing but....' at which point I simply removed my hands from the keys and said 'Yes, Michael. Can I help?' He never got the point.

Mercifully, my rare church engagements these days are at places where that sort of thing simply does not happen.

Barry Williams

Please add to the list:
-endless amounts of paperwork
-policies
-mission statements
-budgets
-upset parents (when child doesn't get solo)
-upset parents (when child doesn't get enough solos)
-upset child (when stroppy parent insists on solo)
-upset sibling when outshone by sibling who now does the solo
-upset old men in choir who have done the solo for years and don't see why they should be replaced by someone younger, just because they can sing in tune

etc. etc.

Luxury!
The thought of even having budgets, let alone parents, children, siblings and old men to upset!

Digging out an old thread to seek views on a familiar topic. This answer suggested that with a volume such as indicated, all problems would then be at an end.
Nope.

Recently purchased the OUP Lent and Easter music book but sometimes it isn't clear which are for which. (If you are not steeped in choral tradition)
For example: picking my way through I Know That My Redeemer Liveth it occurred to me that I wasn't sure if this was a Lent thing or more appropriate for Easter.
I've decided to ignore pettifogging pseudo-rules like 'no Trumpets during Lent' because I'm sure if Jesus had had one with him in the desert he'd have blown it just to pass the time. (And scare off the wolves).
I wish this book had been subdivided into 'Lent' and 'Easter' for people like me.

Edit: The trouble is, I've never sung The Messiah, nor listened to it all through. My (very ) basic knowledge of German helps a bit with chorale prelude titles but when I can't hazard a guess I wonder if it is a safe bet that minor keys=Lent and major= Easter and beyond?

Not sure which OUP book you are referring to, mel, but the OUP "Ash Wedensday to Easter" book (edited by Lionel Dakers and John Scott) has the contents set out in sections from Lent, Passiontide, Palm Sunday, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Easter, which helps enormously. It doesn't have your Handel piece, so I think you must have a different one.

"I know that my Redeemer liveth" would definitely be an Easter item, as it refers to the resurrection, which is Easter. If you can't see any sequence in the items and this comes towards the end of the book, it might just be following the Dakers / Scott approach.

You are quite right, of course, Barry T and now I've had another look at it I can see the contents page has neatly divided it up for idiots like me.
It is the Oxford Book of Lent and Easter Organ Music and if I spend the next couple of practice sessions at it I may have Chorale Prelude:Abridge under the fingers by Sunday.

I shall have to force myself to listen to The Messiah one day. There is something Lenten in the mood of IKTMRL, though - definitely not one to finish with!

Yes - I wonder if that's maybe because it gets played at funerals? I agree - it's not chock full of Easter jubilation.
Although the words do include ' for now is Christ risen' ... so that would be the decider for me, if in doubt.

oh stuff it, Lent is an excelent time to reflect on one's "could-do-better" areas, but the point is to Do better, not to wander round with a face as long as a week of wet Wednesdays merely to prove that we're holy. Music is there to support worship, so it should be fitting. There is no need for any other rule(*).

Isn't there a biblical quote somewhere that when fasting we should wash, anoint our heads with oil, and play Lefebure-Wely Sorties?

((*) Except Big Rule: that out of tune trumpets (i.e. all trumpets) should only be played by That Sort of Organist, and strictly in private.)

Very interesting about the no trumpets rule. Does this apply to RC churches as well?

Though, surprisingly, Bach's "O Mensch bewein" is in the Lent section rather than the Holy Week one. Personally I wouldn't play the exciting Bednall Toccata, though it seems a great piece, in Lent: you certainly couldn't do it without reeds!

There are no fewer than 3 settings of "Valet will Ich Dir Geben" (All Glory, laud and honour): though I would have thought its use was debatable for the end of a Palm Sunday service (in the CofE anyway). But only one piece on the Passion chorale (a Chorale and Variation by Mendelssohn, though, in fact, he only wrote a third of the variation anyway). I'm surprised there isn't a single Baroque organ piece in the Holy Week section (there's one arrangement)

Second attempt....

I've had a dig around for the General Instruction on this. No alleluias, no Gloria, music only to accompany singing:

313. The organ and other lawfully approved musical instruments should
be placed in a suitable place so that they can sustain the singing of both the
choir and the people and be heard with ease by everybody if they are played
alone. It is appropriate that before being put into liturgical use, the organ
be blessed according to the rite described in the Roman Ritual.
....
In Lent the playing of the organ and musical instruments is allowed
only in order to support the singing. Exceptions, however, are Laetare
Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent), Solemnities, and Feasts.

It's shame it doesn't preserve the proper formatting as you would see certain words in red, whence "rubric"

Thanks for digging this out.

Our local RC church is pretty strict when it comes to regulations (for some reason we're forbidden to sing any Latin plainchant), so I'm surprised this rule about the organ hasn't been enforced.

Forty Days and Forty Nights apparently got the thumbs-down from the bishop last week. I'm told he asked loudly "who chose this??" and didn't sing it. I rather wish I had been there to heckle; it's about time somebody did.
There's no point in Lent if you can't get your misery out of your system in one fell swoop, and isn't that the point of hymns like this? The man's got no soul and has as much pastoral sensitivity as Eric Bloodaxe.

errrm - forbidden - why? If you read the GI it's encouraged, especially after the recent revision to the Roman Missal. Sounds like some bogus 1960s "trendy" liturgy to me

I'll send you a PM.