Hear, hear!

From me too.

Thanks!!

Seriously not expecting it to last though

I agree, well done.

I TOTALLY disagree with Tracy and others who said that you should just accept that the teaching is a bit rubbish and move on. A teacher like this absolutely ruined my confidence in music when I was a sixth former- she lacked imagination, didn't like girls (as we heard from her previous students and this was borne out in our lessons), she didn't know the syllabus, she lied to us about where her materials came from, and she told me so repeatedly that I was rubbish that when I got to uni to do music, I needed counselling to come to terms with the fact that I was actually good enough to be there as I didn't believe it, largely due to what I'd been told for 2 years.

What happens to the other kids in that school, who don't have interested parents, who don't have opportunities? What happens to them- do they not deserve a chance? I am spending this week helping to produce a show put together by school pupils; some of the kids in this show are the most naughty, disruptive, annoying kids about normally. But they have behaved impeccably and are very talented, and they aren't just being allowed to do as they please, tey have to be patient and have discipline but they are doing it because they have been given a chance to do something that they are actually good at and some of the other staff are seeing a different side to them, which in turn helps them in other areas of school life. Why should they, or others like them, be denied that chance just because some teacher thinks that differentiation is beneath them or is too afraid to admit that they have gaps in their knowledge?

And it has made me think, 'Who is the better teacher - the person who does not admit that they have gaps in their knowledge, or the one who does and who asks for help with it on a friendly forum???

told me so repeatedly that I was rubbish



a quote about a millstone comes to mind ...

There was someone (can't remember who now) who once said 'A lesson where the teacher hasn't learned something really isn't a very good lesson'. How true...

Hope that progress continues notmusimum.

Thanks again for the support to everyone.

I've always known the answer to that one, that's why I didn't insist below G5 that teachers had a string of qualifications after their name and why I gave a young guy a chance. We have gravitated that way now but it's only happened as some of our original teachers found they didn't have the skills for the higher grades and admitted it.

Knowledge gaps can be filled with experience but those who think they have the answers and the only right way are seriously loosing out.

I don't think this is an end to it by any means a leopard doesn't change their spots that quickly. I strongly suspect this had to happen.

Cyrilla the teacher will be in the building during your tour

Don't laugh!!

I was banned from seeing the Music Teacher tonight at Parents Evening

Everyone else sang daughter's praises highly

To be frank, I'm not at all surprised. The whole situation is quite absurd.

So it's not normal then?

I'm not suprised. Two possible reasons immediately spring to mind:
1) Teacher has been in contact with her union about the 'aggressive'/'unreasonable' parent who has been 'harrassing' her and has been advised to avoid meetings with the parent unless she has a senior member of staff or union rep present - which could be tricky on a parents evening. She sounds like the kind of teacher who would turn to her union quite happily - or else it is possible that the school are considering competency proceedings against her and she's been in touch with union because of this and advised not to discuss matter. (N.B. I'm not saying your agressive etc...)
2) The school have a duty of care to the teacher and to other students/parents and wanted to protect them from a possibly embarassing or unpsetting confrontation, and have priotised this because they feel that you have had recent discussions with the school about your daughter's progress in the subject.

Could be miles off the mark, but they do a least seem plausable - although I'm not sure I've entirely followed the schools logic/reasoning before.

I'm glad you've got all the exam dates now and hope that things don't start going backwards again.

Thinking about it in the cold light of day I strongly suspect they are going to try and say my daughter has made the whole thing up.

I think there is an investigation of some sorts but it's going to end up with no fault on the teachers side.

I am not sure how to prove she's not been covering the work, all I have is an empty music book and child's lack of understanding of aspects of the listening paper.

I have a feeling this fight has only just begun.

And that none of the dates had been scheduled (it wasn't just that your daughter didn't know, because that would have come out immediately).

It's possible that they will indeed blame your daughter, and that would be a travesty. However, I think that if they do that, there is no way that they'll go back on it, and you'll need to concern yourself with ensuring that any fallout doesn't affect the rest of her work and/or relationships with teachers.

I'm sorry this seems to be such a mess. Are you going to have a problem with class music lessons next year, or is it just a case of managing to get through to the summer?

I was very careful to check that what daughter was saying was correct before approaching school. There's only one front that they might have an argument. She was given the scope to work on her composition on two random occassions in the GCSE Music group. She didn't do it, because she didn't have the materials she needed. I think this is a bit of an excuse on daughter's part. In reality she probably didn't want to write it out on paper, she'd rather use Sibelius. It's also difficult to compose when the rest of the class are doing soemthing else.


None of the other teachers have a problem with my daughter on any level. I asked several of them about her attitude and personal relationships wiht them. They were shocked I even thought there might be problems.

She only has until the end of this year and then it's goodbye school music.

I suspect the teacher thinks she wants to take the GCSE early to show how clever she is but it's only to get out of the music department. She'd rather get a C than wait another year for a higher mark.

If you lived closer to me notmusicmum, I've been known to put together a portfolio of performances, and get compositions ready + do a crash course on the listening paper for a pupil in this sort of timetable , and prepare someone for their terminal task, but in that case I knew the teachers were high caliber and it was a case of personality clash and the pupil using her ME as an excuse for not doing any work (I could tell because when she really wanted to work miraculously it happened!).

I really hope you can get this sorted out.

And wherever emsoboe continues to do music, it must surely be better than the appalling situation she's in now.

There is a possibility they may say she made it all up (although we all know she didn't), but I wouldn't cross that bridge until/if you get there.

I just hope emsoboe gets herself a good result. She deserves to.

I'm not convinced that they will do this. My guess is that they will investigate and then put it all down as 'misunderstandings' - thereby letting both sides off the hook and avoiding the need allocate blame.

If there was an intention on the school's part of just blaming your daughter or saying that she'd made everything up, then they would probably have put her on a report or an internal exclusion a long time ago (or whatever the school uses as a sanction for students who seriously or repeatedly disrespect, undermine, harrass or abuse a teacher or teachers). The fact that your daughter hasn't been disciplined over the problems suggests that the senior members of staff involved don't think that the problem is simply your daughter. The senior staff will be aware that your daughter's other teachers have a good opinion of her - which should help her when this is investigated.

They couldn't discipline her as she hasn't been disrespectful to the teacher and I'm certain she hasn't made it up. It's not a personality clash eitherin the normal sense. This is more the teacher not taking responsibility for her undertaking the exam.

Thanks everyone for the support even those who don't agree as it's given me the chance to think about the other side of this. I think I would have gone mad if I hadn't been able to share the situation with people who unsderstand.

Please don't shoot me down in flames....
I am only concerned that if, as you suspect, your daughter may only get a C or a B in her GCSE and is possibly looking ahead to pursue a music related course after school and maybe a music career thereafter, would she end up having to retake the GCSE later anyway to get a higher grade so that she is more likely to be considered for a music course when (and if) she applies for further education through UCAS?

Is this likely to be a consideration if she gone on to more advanced music in between?
My understanding is that it's generally the highest set of qualification that are usally relevant.

It is normally the most advanced set of marks people take into account. They certainly weight them most heavily - a C at Music GCSE in Y9 and an A at AS-Level in Y12? Probably going to automatically assume that the GCSE was taken too early or something. Plus there's an application for to take explain stuff in.

If she wants to do Music A-Level, then she would get the opportunity to explain in person why they should accept her on to the course despite a less than perfect GCSE Music result if the place minds about it (and should that happen). And since it won't be at the current school, she can just shop around local schools and FE colleges until she finds a place that is suitable. (Making a gross assumption about the number and types of places offering A-Level Music in your locality.)

I'm sure I've read that Chets might be a possibility for the sixth form, and maybe then a conservatoire (not that 13/14 year olds need to have decided this sort of thing yet). For either, Music GCSE grade is irrelevant as it all goes on audition.

Basically, I reckon that no matter what the result there's a way to spin it so that it will look fine from the point of view of a sixth form or university, and I'm not sure that anyone else will care.

She still might get an A*, although now I'm thinking that would be bad, since the school and teacher would probably claim credit.

With this teacher taking the course at anytime would have been a gamble. My daughter has a chance of getting really good GCSE results in other subjects and think had she continued in the after school group or in normal lessons these may well have been affected.

I'd rather give her the opportunity to succeed without any frustration surrounding one of the courses. The teacher was a nightmare before I started complaining so keeping my mouth shut wouldn't have made much difference. After all it's probably safe to assume if she had handouts for the info on the listening paper she would have given them out.

Thie after school group has been running for over a year. They haven't even finished their first composition and are in pretty much the same position as my daughter on other things. They have no handouts of any significance and have done virtually nothing to cover any of the elements of the listening paper.

I would expect that someone with a couple of Grade 8's (fingers crossed) and possibly G6 Theory would be more attractive to colleges for A level than G4 with GCSE even at A*. I see the GCSE as an addition, I suppose, but that doesn't mean I don't want her to do well in it.



We'll keep trying until we find somewhere if there's any sort of problem.



Chets is an option but there's plenty of space for her to change her mind and pursue something other than music. Main reason why I don't want her grades in other subjects weakened



We can hope, but don't want to put on too much pressure or become unrealistic. I am going to make it very clear that the teacher has been obstructive and unhelpful and any result is down to self and outside help.

The reason this came to mind is that I understand that many of the stronger universities for courses which are heavily oversubscribed do an initial screening of UCAS forms by computer to ensure that candidates meet minimum criteria - such as minimum grades in specified subjescts and minimum overall 'points' score for total GCSEs AND AS exams already taken. Only then are the 'surviving' candidates' applications looked at in more detail in person.
My son was advised by his school to retake one critical GCSE on those grounds, even though he was predicted (and achieved) top grades at AS to ensure that his UCAS application was not prejudiced in any way.

I can understand why it might be important in other subjects, even if she were filling in an UCAS form now she already has Ucas points form G6 Flute, Oboe and G7 Recorder. These should be enough proof of musicality.

Because if the computer screening has been instructed automatically to reject applicants who do not - for example - have A* or A in a particular specified subject (say, music here) then no end of other qualifications will do.

I know it might not sound fair, but unfortunately that is the way these things sometimes work. It is also good for children who have perhaps always found things easy and have got their wishes in life most of the time to learn that lesson sooner rather than later. That is why we insisted that my son resat his GCSE, to make sure that he would not be handicapped unnecessarily compared to other applicants.

Have just read through all this with some sympathy notmusimum. If your daughter's getting help with the other bits as you've indicated, then I should think that with her natural musical ability she should be fine. All I would say, is keep a copy if possible of anything that your daughter submits in case it gets lost in the post!

Thanks that's good practical advice.

I think there is some truth in the computer screening thing, but what if you didn't take music GCSE at all? A significant proportion of the AS music students at my college didn't, yet are just as good as those who did and would apply to the same good universities.

With compulsory GCSE subjects like maths and english, then you could expect them to expect all applicants to have good grades in them, but with 'choice' subjects, that not all schools even offer, they can't rule out those people who are just as good, but not given the opportunity to do GCSE.

Don't get me wrong - it's because I have every sympathy for notmusimum that I have shared my experience - that of a parent of rather more than 2.4 children, two of which have so far gone through the UCAS process, and teacher and mentor of many more over more years than I have been a parent.

I take your point but in this case waiting another year or resitting in the school situation isn't going to improve the teaching. The stress of doing so with the current teacher will probably lead to emotional stress that will affect her other subjects.

What we are doing is trying to ensure she has the support, outside of school, to get as many marks as possible for the Compositions and Performances. The Teminal Task or improvisation shouldn't be a problem I'm afraid though that the listening paper will be a bit luck of the draw, in that it will depend on what comes up, hopefully some of it will be relating to what she's covering with her tutor and what she already knows.

It will be better long term for her to get out of school music. If she needs to re-take then it'll have to wait until college. I'm sure there has to be ways round this sort of situation with communication though.

I'm not trying to have a go, honest.

I've just had the experience on the other side of the coin, where a friend was told straight out by a teacher not to bother applying to durham because he hadn't got more than 550/600 in the maths A level he took early. Everyone who knew him was telling him to just ignore it but he took the advice and didn't apply. He is now seriously regretting the decision to listen to the teacher as an awful lot of other friends have got offers from Durham with AS scores of less than 275/300, and Durham was high up on his list of choices and, I think, above the one he'll probably end up at.

No offence taken. It's precisely all this sharing of information that makes these forums what they are.

Its odd, but all this stuff about screening, A level results and advice from tutors is regarding UCAS applications... well, it strikes me as rather nonsensical.

I never heard anything about any of it. Niether did most people I know who applied to university. I barely even got any advice on writing a personal statement.

I think its easy to get far too hung up about the 'best' Uni, and obsessive about getting into the one you've been thinking about for years (or one of the few that students have heard about before UCAS comes around). Getting into a Uni to do a good course is not difficult. Getting into a specific Uni that you set your heart on without considering any alternatives, is. Not to mention the fact that you still might find yourself utterly miserable there. There is no shame in waiting to go to Uni, swapping courses, dropping out and starting again, going back to college to get new qualifications and so on.

I sometimes think this forum lacks perspective...

Dropping out and going back to Uni is very very expensive these days.
I see no reason not to aim high. One needs a back up plan of course but if there is such a screening then it makes sense to ensure you don't fall foul of it.
I went to university over 30 years ago to read Maths. I had been told I needed French. When it became clear that it was going to be a major problem for me to pass French I rang the University, was assured I didn't need French and dropped it.
FWIW I doubt that a GCSE at a particular grade in music is required provided these is strength elsewhere, which in this case there is. The university I teach at does require Grade C or above, or equivalent in Maths and English no matter what you are studying.
Dora

I never implied that myself or my school friends didn't aim high.

I do wonder if this mythical screening exists, how they cope with those numerous international and UK students with unconventional qualifications...

(Also, without meaning to cast any aspertions, the child mentioned in this thread is in Y9! At that age the majority of children have hardly given the potential of Uni a thought, even if their parents have. At that age, a child may still decide to train as a hairdresser, chef, garden designer, retail manager, or any other of numerous careers where Uni, or even A-levels are not necessarily the type of education most suited to their plans! So why worry about potential implications of one grade?...)

I don't think there is a right or wrong in this discussion. It is worth being aware that there might be screening taking place or there could be in the future. On the other hand there is no point in stressing over it. I would suspect for further music study other things will be more important than GCSE Music grades and it might jus tbe a matter of additional communication if there is a problem.

I agree that it is far too soon to think that Uni is a done deal at 14. On the music front for one reason and another child has been to get near to the skills required at a young age on her woodwind instruments. For us getting Piano to a reasonable standard to get one of those coverted Uni places is something we realised had to happen.

If the skills are there and emsoboe still wants to persue music in two years time then fine. If she decides on another avenue and that makes her happy, it will be ok with us.

I wouldn't have said that if I didn't think you'd mostly agree with me.

There are a lot of helicopter parents around; you've never struck me as one of them.

No definately not a helicopter parent No intentions of pushing her into anything either but recognise that she needs certain things in place. At the end of the day it'll be her decision which route she follows longer term.

It would be a lot cheaper if she changed to swimming or cheer leading (I know they still cost money but the grass is always greener/cheaper).

If I could chip in with my two penn'orth here - the fact that your daughter will have taken the GCSE music early will be there on her UCAS application. She will hopefully be furthering her musical activities lots outside school after this year. She needs to watch out for opportunities to do something a little bit off the beaten track with regard to music perhaps, in case that proves to be the direction that she wants to take.

This worked ok for my daughter who has been offered a place at Cambridge in spite of the fact that her GCSEs don't quite match the level they're reputed to request. But she did archaeology GCSE by herself, passed, but didn't get a brilliant grade - but she did it a year early and it's very relevant to the course she's chosen - plus she wrote a good personal statement.

So as you say it's a bit early to be thinking of uni in set, defined terms just now, but it's worth keeping it at the back of your mind so as not to miss opportunities.

Really tricky but interesting thread! Speaking as a former secondary music teacher (now private oboe, piano and theory teacher), schools fall into one of two categories - one where music is high profile, well funded and respected, where issues like this rarely happen as real talent is spotted, celebrated and developed, the other, where music is on the curriculum because it has to be. Often these schools now have a 'teacher in charge of music' rather than a properly paid 'Head of Music' (my former role). I have musical children and hope to send them to a school where music is high profile and they will be able to take part in a variety of musical activities. OUr local school unfortunately falls into the second category, although it does have a good academic record. However, we are fortunate enough to have some very good schools for music not too far away and I'll be making a bee line for them, rather than putting up with second rate music.

As a teacher, I feel sorry for the music teachers in these schools - they have to fight for every penny of their very meagre funding, and generally fight a losing battle with PE departments over extra-curricular activities.

On a final note, GCSE music is not particularly relevant! At conservatoire level it's evidence of music making and achievement on instruments that counts, alongside a good audition. Forget GCSE, look to A level, and ensure your child has good instrumental teachers as this is what will make the difference re. universities. Grades 6, 7, and 8 count for UCAS points not GCSE!

I think this particular teacher lacks motivation to run after school activities. It's a much bigger problem than just failing my daughter. There are other talented musicians and vocalists in the school who are also being let down.

I've had two letters from school in past week.

The first one last Saturday really went a little too far. It expressed concern about the music exams my daughter is taking externally. I really fail to see how this relates to the GCSE situation. It did state that my daughter had told her form teacher that she felt isolated in the class music lesson and lacked knowledge.

My reply was very strong, not a rant against the teacher but focusing on how child had been let down and her musicality mis-understood.

I pretty sharpishly got dates for the performances and have even had a note to confirm the times I suggested are ok.

The Music Teacher actually went through two of the questions in the class music lesson and practically begged Emsoboe to stay for for the GCSE afterschool group. I'm not suprised she refused after the dressing down she got the week before for not asking for advice on the brief's and appraisals.

I was contacted yesterday and arrangements made for a meeting with the Head.

She came home with a note from the Music Teacher, the revision topic has been held over until next Thursday, a website was given for her to look at and revision cards are now in her file (don't know what use they are there).

The second letter arrived today. I thought it was confirmation of the appointment. When I opened it, I was amazed! It's information on a bursary for talented musicians, I did know about it already, it needs a reference from school so discounted it. This is the first time there has been even the slightest acknowledgement that she is in anyway more advanced than others in her form class.

Don't know what the meeting will bring

It is at least a sign that perhaps they're beginning to see the talent in emsoboe. Let's hope that continues, and I hope the meeting goes well.

Thanks!! Don't know whether to take a "friend" with me as I suspect they are going to abdicate responsibility. I'm not hopeful that there will be a resolution

Might be a good thing to take someone with you, for support.

If I'm not missing somthing here I find this comment totally bizarre!

Unless you're talking about a music course then I really cannot see what standard your piano playing has any influence over getting a University place.

I spent quite a chunk of Jan as part of a team interviewing prospective medical students, and never once was the standard of anyone's playing even mentioned. Most of the panel were completely indifferent to anyone's musical ability or otherwise.

I asked every student who put music related activities on their personal statement a couple of questions - first one "who's your favoprite composer?" second one "what piece do you enjy playing the most?".

The main reason for asking this question was to see their reaction and to guage if they were lying or not. This is exactly what we do about any other extracurricula activity - the standard of playing was absolutely immaterial. (You'd be surprised how many people put down blatent lies)

What we were looking for was evidence of personal commitment and enthusiasm as well as the ability to be part of a team. Several students who listed music as an interest turned out just to have sat exams and had no involvment past that. Quite honestly they would have done better not to have listed it at all, even if they had 5 grade 8 distinctions (in fact many of the interviewers would have no idea what this means anyway). You could very quickly identify the people who were really interested and commited to music (or anything else) and had devoted time and energy to it. Playing in orchestra's for school productions, playing in old peoples homes etc would all get brownie points as they showed community involvement. The exam grades made absolutely no difference at all.

Hi StuMac - you're missing the fact that Notmusimum's daughter is considering a music degree/career (possibly at one of the conservatoires) and is considering applying to a music school for 6th form. This has been on previous threads which you probably haven't seen (not a criticism - just trying to help you understand where the comment originated from).

Hope the meeting goes well Notmusimum. In contrast to the others, I'd personally be wary of taking a 'friend' with you as it could be interpreted as an overly hostile or aggressive move. If you do want to take someone with you, could you perhaps get the person from the music service? He is known to the school and could be seen to have a legitimate interest in the case - which means (perhaps) that the school might respond better to him being there rather than a stranger. He could also potentially be useful as a mediator as he understands the exams your daughter is taking and the school might respect his understanding more than yours. Just suggestions - I don't have any answers to the situation at the moment, and I'm not saying that you don't understand your daughters exams because I know you do.

At the moment she is saying that she wants a career in music but I don't want her tied to that as she is young and could change her mind. The logic with the Piano is that if she has a reasonable playing standard and decides to persue music post 16 then she can. If it's something else she wants then having Piano skills won't be a problem even if they don't add very much. Better to be prepared than having few Piano skills and maybe having difficulty getting on to the course she wants.

At least she won't be like some of the students you interview as there's lots of committment evidence to all the ensembles she plays in and I'm sure she could manage a favourite composer.