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Edwardo
I know this topic has been recently covered but I've a slightly different question.

First, some background. My son, 12, Grade 4 piano, at an all-boys school. He used to be taught by a teacher in the village, but she quit teaching at about the same time as he went to secondary school, so he's now taught at school.

I don't think he gets on with the teacher very well, but that seems to be a characteristic of his relationship with all his piano teachers (come to think of it, teachers in general tongue.gif ) However, he seems to be getting on well and the consensus is that the teacher is very able.

However, The Boy told me last night that the teacher "kept touching him". Not unsurprisingly, my antennae twitched, particularly because The Boy's best friend's piano teacher is currently incarcerated for precisely this offence. However, The Boy explained that it's because (and this is something I've noticed myself when I've given him the occasional lesson) he has the tendency to twiddle about - for example, he'll end a scale with an impromptu arpeggio followed by a chord, as if it's a piece of music that needs resolution. In addition, if he makes a mistake, he tends to carry on playing after the teacher (or the father) has said "Stop."

Apparently the teacher grabs The Boy's hands and places them firmly in The Boy's lap. I asked him to show me what this entailed and it seems innocent enough - he's just trying to make the point that he wants The Boy to stop playing and listen. I've spoken to a mother of a boy at the same school taught by the same man and she raved about him, saying how he'd become a family friend and was completely trustworthy.

I'm not throwing stones here. I can't bear the moral witchhunts that we see from time to time, resulting in paediatricians having their houses beseiged. However, The Boy doesn't like being touched by strangers - of either gender, in any circumstance (even though he's highly tactile with his family).

The Boy tells us that the teacher also asks him back to his house at the weekend - which, given that The Boy lives about twelve miles away, would be very difficult. The mother I spoke to said that her son goes at the weekends too, but for private lessons, which is what I assumed the teacher meant.

So what I'm asking is - how can The Boy ask the teacher to stop touching him, without it sounding like a big deal, or a different and more sinister deal than it actually is (which is mere discomfort). I certainly don't want to get involved in any semi-formal requests for him to desist, but neither do I want The Boy to suffer.
music margaret
Does the school not have some sort of protocol? Should the teacher be inviting students from the school to his home for private lessons?

For those who do attend his home, are you as a parent able to observe on occasions? This does ring a few alarm bells which should not be ignored. Is there a Head of Music you could have a quiet word with? How much communication do you have with the teacher themselves? Does your son want to continue attending lessons with this teacher? If not, then take heed!
mel2
Maybe I'm hypersensitive but I can generally tell if someone is uncomfortable with physical contact (I have to touch people in the course of my work, albeit minimally - the current gobbledegook is implying that we should ask permission for each action, even looking closely at the organ in question which is normally on general display!). There is a shrinking, a stiffening that is unmistakeable and I'm sure both boys would be exhibiting this reaction quite clearly.

If he doesn't like the contact, why does the child persist in the action that brings about the touching? I would only need to experience the unwelcome attention once before I stopped provoking it!

dolce@piano
At the risk of sounding like the devil's advocate, I'd probably do exactly what your son's teacher doing in the same circumstances. And I probably wouldn't care too much that he doesn't like it.

I know that sounds dreadful but I have several pupils who get annoyed when I touch their hands but the point is that it is WAY more effective (especially in terms of time and energy spent) than constantly explaining or showing.

Sometimes it even becomes a joke:

Child (pretend indignant) : I only went wrong coz you touched my wrists

Me (pretend self-righteous) : yeah, well, I wouldn't have had to if they hadn't collapsed somewhere into your jeans' pockets.

It usually ends with us both laughing.

After all, maybe if your son dislikes it so much he'll stop when the teacher says stop.

(I'm obviously taking you on trust that it's nothing more sinister which I'm sure you'll be alert to and would change everything 100%).


jod
This is ringing alarm bells. Yes I do touch occasionally during lessons, but I always tell the child what I am about to do and why.

The inviting pupils home bit really rings alarm bells.

This pattern is very similar to what happened in Cambridgshire with Brian Davey.
notmusimum


First thing to do, tell your son banging the piano keys in this way is not acceptable, threaten dire consiquences if it continues. Don't allow him to do it at home when he plays for you. If this is the only time he's being touched and it's always after the same behaviour it should no longer be a problem if the behaviour stops.

I am not sure this really rings alarm bells or that I would be overly concerned as a parent at least not until I had a bit more evidence. I'd be wondering if this is a bit of a wind-up. Perhaps your son doesn't want to learn Piano any longer.

I suppose it might be concerning if the teacher lives alone and he's inviting boys back to his house. On the other hand maybe he's simply offering private lessons, or to make up time missed in school. He might live with his family and may be kindly offering the opportunity to play duets. The other parent seems happy enough. Do you know any other families learning with him that you could also approach?

My daughter's Piano Teacher always asks if he needs to touch her in order to correct posture, this is on a very rare occassion but she doesn't bang Piano keys.
bean52
Personally I would be less concerned about the physical contact, which as others have said seems to be solely related to particular actions on your son's part, so if he stops doing them the need for the contact disappears.

However, I find the invitation to the teacher's home very odd. Surely if he wants to offer private lessons to a child at his home then he should follow an appropriate procedure - ie. contact the parent, either directly or by letter via the student, to offer the service and setting out the terms and conditions applying? I find it incredible, especially in this day and age, that any teacher would issue such an invitation to a 12 year old without discussing it with the parents first. It may be, and hopefully is, entirely innocent, but even if it is then I think this teacher is pretty naive.
music margaret
Totally agreeing with much that has been said! It is incredibly irritating when someone treats the piano badly. However, having said that, it may be sad, but teachers need to avoid using physical contact, unless it has a clear benefit to the student. If a child is behaving in this manner, the teacher needs to speak with school staff and parents - if for no other reason than to cover their own back.

Invitations to home should have a clear reason and should be organised through direct contact with the parents.

Is this an independant school? There is no way this would be allowed to happen in the state sector!
Edwardo
QUOTE(notmusimum @ Mar 12 2009, 01:24 PM) *

First thing to do, tell your son banging the piano keys in this way is not acceptable, threaten dire consiquences if it continues. Don't allow him to do it at home when he plays for you. If this is the only time he's being touched and it's always after the same behaviour it should no longer be a problem if the behaviour stops.


He doesn't "bang the piano keys" - where did you get that idea from? I said that he has a tendency to embellish scales with impromptu arpeggios and cadences which, in the context of an exam, would be unlikely to garner extra marks. He doesn't want to stop having lessons - he loves playing the piano though his teacher is, I think, a little stinting with praise.

Anyway, the advice here seems somewhat conflicting. I've spoken to the Head of Music who seemed pretty relaxed about it, and he said he'd get in touch with the teacher in question. If that doesn't resolve satisfactorily I'll make an appointment to meet the teacher myself and find out what's going on.

Edward
Susie
QUOTE(music margaret @ Mar 12 2009, 02:15 PM) *

Invitations to home should have a clear reason and should be organised through direct contact with the parents.

Is this an independant school? There is no way this would be allowed to happen in the state sector!


I don't teach my school pupils privately at all, though sometimes I feel I would like to in order to make better progress. I have only done it on one occasion in the run up to an exam where I made contact directly with parents - I would not do it through the child, - even with teenagers for alterations of lessons I communicate with parents, sometimes via the notebook. I would expect all such invitations to be via parents, with a clear statement of the aims of the exercise - ie is it for working up to exam, or to do duets which will improve sight-reading, etc.

With respect to the touching of pupil's hands as described, I would not as a teacher ever dream of doing that. I would use all sorts of verbal methods - probably starting as a loud jokey voice telling him to stop, developing into an icy blast as I became increasingly exasperated, finally culminating in a serious "why do you do this" conversation. By which time, hopefully the message would have penetrated.
Edwardo
QUOTE(music margaret @ Mar 12 2009, 02:15 PM) *

Totally agreeing with much that has been said! It is incredibly irritating when someone treats the piano badly. However, having said that, it may be sad, but teachers need to avoid using physical contact, unless it has a clear benefit to the student. If a child is behaving in this manner, the teacher needs to speak with school staff and parents - if for no other reason than to cover their own back.

Invitations to home should have a clear reason and should be organised through direct contact with the parents.

Is this an independant school? There is no way this would be allowed to happen in the state sector!


As in my other response, he's not "treating the piano badly", which I find a baffling interpretation of my original post.

No, it's not an independent school, it's a grammar school, so yes, this is allowed in the state sector!
Dora
Alarm bells are going off all over the place for me. There is quite a big difference between putting your hands on a child's hands to stop them and taking their hands in yours and placing them in their lap.
I can imagine needing to stop a child doing what your son is doing but I suspect I would use a ruler and gently rest it on the back of their hand when I needed them to stop. I'm not a music teacher, I'm a parent turned PA!
Becoming a "family friend" is potentially concerning. The word "grooming" comes to mind here. Invitations to the house is very concerning.
My friend's son went through this and the teacher concerned went to prision for some time.
It is good for your son to know that people are not entitled to touch him. Ask him to suggest how the teacher can achieve the desired result without touching him. Then write to the teacher.
You shouldn't have any further trouble.
Either the teacher will be surprised their actions have caused offence and will change tack immediately. Or they will know that this child is not available and move on. Either way your problem is solved.
Good luck
Dora
jenny
QUOTE(Dora @ Mar 12 2009, 03:58 PM) *


Either the teacher will be surprised their actions have caused offence and will change tack immediately. Or they will know that this child is not available and move on. Either way your problem is solved.
Good luck
Dora



Am inclined to agree. Let's hope that the teacher mentioned going to his house for lessons to see if your son was interested, with the intention of contacting you about it if he was. This could all be completely innocent, but obviously needs checking. Could it be that if the teacher is from the 'older generation', he doesn't realise that some ideas have changed? Although this would seem rather naive of him.
Please do let us know what happens.
Ayshah
What ever you son is doing that invites the uncomfortable 'touching' on his hands, ask him to show you and then tell him that as his teacher has asked him to desist - then desist. You have indicated that you have spoken to the Head. That should suffice. Regardless of whether the school is grammar or not, no Head wants negative reports from parents, especially on 'touching'.

If your son is invited to the teacher's house, and I presume it is for private lessons, you should make sure that the school are aware of the invitation and you should go with him and stay with him. If your son then tells you he is unfortable then you need to listen to him and find a teacher that he is comfortable with.

My daughter goes to her teacher for one or two extra lesson prior to grade exams if there is a half term or similar school break, so it is not unusual, it can be in her house or another school. I would say however, her teacher is a woman. Further I always check with the H.o. Music that this is ok with him.

As a teacher 'touching' is a minefield much discussed on these forums. Children find a range of things uncomfortable. When I was in primary school, I had a maths teacher who wanted me to touch her fingers when she was teaching me basic maths (yes I still remember it). She had beautiful fingers. I just stared at her lovely nailpolish and just couldnt bring myself to touch her fingers. I was totally stressed out and started to cry. Looking back I realise I was uncomfortable with want seemed a simple act of teaching. I was relieved when she gave me matchsticks to work with! As a teacher I am aware of this fact as much as I am aware that some kids just want to bury their face in your skirt and cry when some saga has happened in the playground!

In this country, I have never touched a child I am teaching, until the day they leave school when all of a sudden they want to shake your hands or hug you. rolleyes.gif
SueHM
I would have thought that any decent Head of Music would treat this pretty seriously and insist that the teacher stops touching. Even though it is all probably completely innocent - as others have said, this teacher must be completely naive not to realise that this sort of thing is a 'no go' area. I expect he will get a warning and won't do it again.

However if he does, perhaps your son could tackle it in a light-hearted way by offering to make a deal with the teacher - no fiddling = no touching. If that doesn't work, just move to another teacher - it is not worth the hassle of complaints and getting into allegations / suspensions / investigations unless you are completely sure that something untoward has happened (and so far it doesn't sound that way - although what of the extra sessions at the teacher's home - did you get any clarification on that?)

For the record, I'm not anti-touch at all and frequently demonstrate things to my students by getting them to rest a hand on my mine or whatever. I wouldn't use touch to discipline a child however as I think that can definitely lead to trouble. I have closed the lid of the piano once or twice to put a stop to persistent fiddling, but verbal means are usually sufficient.
jod
There are very clear protocols sent to ISM members re touch, and the general rule is to avoid, and if you need to explain what for and why. Certain areas you just do not touch at all.

If you teach in a school you don't give lifts, and you do not invite home. It is not professional and opens you up as a professional to allegations of child molestation.

As this individual is breaking these rules, I have severe concerns.

Boys laps are getting close to a Taboo area.
jo.clarinet
I can't understand why on earth the pupil is persisting in the behaviour that causes the touching scenario if he is uncomfortable with it blink.gif

Surely the thing to do is for Edwardo's son to make absolutely sure he follows the teacher's instructions - ie. stops playing immediately when asked to do so, and refrains from 'twiddling' (I must say that it drives me wild when pupils persist in this sort of behaviour when asked to stop - it's just plain rude, IMO!).

If the teacher continues to hold the boy's hands after that, THEN there is cause for concern.....
Aquarelle
QUOTE(jo.clarinet @ Mar 12 2009, 09:58 PM) *

I can't understand why on earth the pupil is persisting in the behaviour that causes the touching scenario if he is uncomfortable with it blink.gif

Surely the thing to do is for Edwardo's son to make absolutely sure he follows the teacher's instructions - ie. stops playing immediately when asked to do so, and refrains from 'twiddling' (I must say that it drives me wild when pupils persist in this sort of behaviour when asked to stop - it's just plain rude, IMO!).

If the teacher continues to hold the boy's hands after that, THEN there is cause for concern.....


agree.gif

It can be extremely irritating if pupils persist in playing when one is trying to talk to them, explain something or ask them questions. For parents this kind of behaiviour may seem minor but when you have had several children doing it and you are tired of remonstrating it is very tempting to simply remove the hands. The pupil who persistently behaves in this manner is impolite and disobedient.

Today one of my treble recorder players started playing her recorder (for the umpteenth time) while I was speaking to another pupil in the group. They have been told from day one that this is not acceptable. Now you can't remove the piano. I removed the recorder but I have been known to remove hands from the piano and in most cases the children stop this irritating habit quite quickly.

There may be other ways of dealing with it - for example simply shutting the piano every time it happens and doing some written work. but I don't think there is any call for sounding alarm bells unless the teacher
continues as jo-clarinet says.
music margaret
As other posters have said, the call for concern is less related to the removing of hands, more to the inviting students to their home!

Edwardo, if this is a state school, as you say, then the Head of Music is duty bound to take your report more seriously. I can understand that you do not wish to begin a witch hunt, and it is, in all probability, innocent actions on the part of this teacher. But they are very naive - they should be avoiding touch unless necessary and fully explained, and liaising with parents re. necessity for home lessons. Naivety is not really an excuse in this day and age! Perhaps they need a little more CPD - all available through the county for the state sector! Teachers in the state sector should have up-to-date training on "safeguarding" issues (child protection).
Holz Gedeckt
I think we're in danger of being rather too suspicious in today's climate of - it seems - viewing everybody as potential child-molesters. From what the OP says, I'm sure that the teacher's motivation towards the touching and the invitation to his home is probably well-intended, but probably also somewhat misguided nowadays, alas.

What a sad reflection on today's society, eh? sad.gif
pianodub
QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Mar 12 2009, 11:09 PM) *

I think we're in danger of being rather too suspicious in today's climate of - it seems - viewing everybody as potential child-molesters. From what the OP says, I'm sure that the teacher's motivation towards the touching and the invitation to his home is probably well-intended, but probably also somewhat misguided nowadays, alas.

What a sad reflection on today's society, eh? sad.gif


That's what I was thinking! It is very sad that so many teachers have to go out of their way to avoid touching their pupils, as if all contact was tantamount to abuse. A pupil of mine did fantastic work this week so I gave her a big handshake ("Put it there!")...would this be illegal in the UK? If so, I am glad I work in a different country! (Apologies...no intention to pull the thread off-topic)
PianoDoodler
QUOTE(Edwardo @ Mar 12 2009, 02:23 PM) *
QUOTE(notmusimum @ Mar 12 2009, 01:24 PM) *

First thing to do, tell your son banging the piano keys in this way is not acceptable, threaten dire consiquences if it continues. Don't allow him to do it at home when he plays for you. If this is the only time he's being touched and it's always after the same behaviour it should no longer be a problem if the behaviour stops.


He doesn't "bang the piano keys" - where did you get that idea from? I said that he has a tendency to embellish scales with impromptu arpeggios and cadences which, in the context of an exam, would be unlikely to garner extra marks. He doesn't want to stop having lessons - he loves playing the piano though his teacher is, I think, a little stinting with praise.

Anyway, the advice here seems somewhat conflicting. I've spoken to the Head of Music who seemed pretty relaxed about it, and he said he'd get in touch with the teacher in question. If that doesn't resolve satisfactorily I'll make an appointment to meet the teacher myself and find out what's going on.

Edward

Your own reply to your own post is one of the few sane ones I have read here. This is exactly the right approach and the same one I would have taken had my own child been expressing discomfort. I would have: tried to find out why my own version of The Boy was not happy; approached the teacher with the intention of open discussion; tried to bring The Teacher and The Boy together with a mutual understanding of each others' position.

notmusimum


What exactly did the teacher say to your son? I think you need to find out exactly what was said and this should have happened before you spoke to the head of music in the school. I agree that the teacher should always speak with parents when organising extra tuition or whatever but how are they to gage if it's something the child is interested in if they don't mention the possibility to the child first?

I suspect there's more to this than your son is telling you, perhaps his embelishments on Piano have esculated without you knowing. No doubt your son is aware of the reputation of the Piano Teacher of his friend perhaps he's using the "touch" to cover for his behaviour at the Piano.
Susie
The other thing to bear in mind is that what the teacher says can become changed slightly by child when relaying it to parent.

For example, (and I'm glad I was witness to this yesterday) 1 of my pupils (admittedly year 5 rather than teenager) greeted her mother after the lesson with "have you paid for this book?" being a new book she'd had for a week or so, obtained by me, and which I'll put on the bill at the end of term.

She's been with me for about a year or so, so parent should know the routine, but parent looked up in horror at me, and started to apologise for not sending the money. As I said to the parent - I had not mentioned this matter during the lesson - it had been a figment of the pupil's imagination, where it had come from I do not know.

Now I'm not saying that The Boy is like this pupil (who was just vague and absent-minded on this occasion), but it's something to bear in mind in approaching these situations.
jod
This is such a tricky area. I do not want to falsely accuse someone of child molestation where they are innocent, but as a teacher I do not see the protocols being followed.

The protocols are there to protect every one, especially the teacher concerned.

Edwardo, if your son is uncomfortable then you do need to speak up if only to insure that correct protocols are being followed for the teacher's sake as well as for your son.
skylark
QUOTE(Edwardo @ Mar 12 2009, 11:48 AM) *

The Boy explained that it's because (and this is something I've noticed myself when I've given him the occasional lesson) he has the tendency to twiddle about - for example, he'll end a scale with an impromptu arpeggio followed by a chord, as if it's a piece of music that needs resolution. In addition, if he makes a mistake, he tends to carry on playing after the teacher (or the father) has said "Stop."

Apparently the teacher grabs The Boy's hands and places them firmly in The Boy's lap. I asked him to show me what this entailed and it seems innocent enough - he's just trying to make the point that he wants The Boy to stop playing and listen.

>>>

So what I'm asking is - how can The Boy ask the teacher to stop touching him, without it sounding like a big deal, or a different and more sinister deal than it actually is (which is mere discomfort). I certainly don't want to get involved in any semi-formal requests for him to desist, but neither do I want The Boy to suffer.

QUOTE(Edwardo @ Mar 12 2009, 02:23 PM) *
I've spoken to the Head of Music who seemed pretty relaxed about it, and he said he'd get in touch with the teacher in question. If that doesn't resolve satisfactorily I'll make an appointment to meet the teacher myself and find out what's going on.
I feel as if I'm completely missing something... why doesn't The Boy just do as the teacher tells him unsure.gif The teacher only touches him in order to remove his hands when he doesn't heed the teacher's instruction. Involving the HoM and making an issue out of it seems to me to be suggesting that The Boy wants to carry on ignoring the teacher's instruction to stop but doesn't want the consequences. If these are the only grounds for complaint that The Boy has got, then surely the solution is in his own hands - stop twiddling!!! Problem solved - no need for anyone else to get involved at all blink.gif
SueHM
But there was another issue about having lessons at the teacher's home.
pianodub
QUOTE(SueHM @ Mar 13 2009, 01:54 PM) *

But there was another issue about having lessons at the teacher's home.


Yes that bit did sound a bit strange.


skylark
QUOTE(SueHM @ Mar 13 2009, 01:54 PM) *
But there was another issue about having lessons at the teacher's home.
Yes, that could be innocent or otherwise. If anything, an alarm bell rings when the OP says that the teacher has become a friend of the other family (I feel he should keep a professional distance) and they "rave" about him. How many of us "rave" about our family friends? blink.gif It suggests he's doing something out of the ordinary to impress them - and that it's worked, although that in itself suggests that it was deliberate, which it may not be. But we don't know exactly what was said. I think an invitation of this nature presents more uncertainty, but on the particular matter of the removal of hands from the piano, to me it seems pretty straightforward that if The Boy were to stop twiddling, then the teacher would stop touching him... and if he didn't, then - but only then - would it become a matter for serious concern. The teacher is possibly unwise for touching him, but I must admit, I do sometimes inwardly cheer when somebody refuses to follow the PC line in circumstances where it doesn't appear to have undertones ph34r.gif

hides.gif
sbhoa
QUOTE(pianodub @ Mar 13 2009, 02:19 PM) *

QUOTE(SueHM @ Mar 13 2009, 01:54 PM) *

But there was another issue about having lessons at the teacher's home.


Yes that bit did sound a bit strange.


The original post doesn't say anything about lessons at the teacher's home, only that the teacher is alleged to have invited The Boy to his house at weekends which is a different matter altogether. (though if he is offering lessons this ought to be put to the parents and not to the child in school!)
neil.clarinet
I don't wish to get too involved in this discussion, however a number of things make me uneasy with this situation.

Any physical contact from a teacher however well intended is against child protection protocols. Sad but officially true.

The boy may have an attitude problem himself playing when he shouldn't be.

Becoming a 'friend' is again not right, and professional distance should always be maintained. Though he may not be a paedophile, the teacher ought to steer away from common practices employed by said people like inviting them home.

We can continue to say how well intentioned any actions may be but that is neither here nor there when it comes to protecting ourselves in the modern climate. Sorry, that's life.

How you resolve this is up to you, but I though I would share my experiences of recent child protection training, music and otherwise.
LizzieT
I thought about this thread when I was teaching in school today. I have several pupils (particularly boys for some reason) who fiddle about with the keyboard or embellish pieces while playing or while I'm explaining something. At no time today (or any day) did I feel any need to touch them to correct this - I simply said "please stop playing - I am talking" or words to that effect, and if they did not heed me first time I repeated it or added "please take your hands off the keyboard".

This teacher is dealing with the problem in a way which is unnecessary and could be misconstrued in our society. I don't think the responsibility for his actions should be put on Eduardo's son - even if his behaviour is annoying, the teacher should be aware that there are perfectly adequate, non-tactile ways of dealing with it.
Cyrilla
QUOTE(skylark @ Mar 13 2009, 12:21 PM) *

I feel as if I'm completely missing something... why doesn't The Boy just do as the teacher tells him unsure.gif The teacher only touches him in order to remove his hands when he doesn't heed the teacher's instruction. Involving the HoM and making an issue out of it seems to me to be suggesting that The Boy wants to carry on ignoring the teacher's instruction to stop but doesn't want the consequences. If these are the only grounds for complaint that The Boy has got, then surely the solution is in his own hands - stop twiddling!!! Problem solved - no need for anyone else to get involved at all blink.gif


agree.gif

And I have heard of far more worrying stories of 'tactile teachers' than this one..

dry.gif
Aquarelle
QUOTE(LizzieT @ Mar 13 2009, 04:20 PM) *



the teacher should be aware that there are perfectly adequate, non-tactile ways of dealing with it.


This is unfortunately not always the case. This evening I lifted a six year old off the piano stool. Her lesson had ended and it was time for her brother. She simply refused to let him start his lesson. She is quite a hefty lass for her age and has a very strong personality. No way was she moving!

The girl is the youngest of three siblings I teach back to back and mother leaves all three with me while she goes to fetch two older siblings from school, who then follow on. They are a large and sometimes very lively family and there is no problem about touch which I do often resort to in their case.

But then I don't live in England and attitudes here are more normal.
Violinia
I think I told the story before about my cousin who teaches in a primary school in Vienna. I was observing her teaching last year and was amazed to see her hugging and kissing her pupils, lifting them on her knee, patting them on the head, cuddling them when they were distressed....

When I asked her if she was unusual in this, she said, baffled: 'how could I otherwise do my job?'

We're weirrrrrrd in England with our problems with touch. No wonder binge drinking is such an English problem - we're all so starved of basic human affection in our daily lives we need some way of unwinding...

This teacher may be problematic but how to know? It's a difficult one. Inviting students back to his house - does he mean for longer lessons or for social reasons? If it was for social reasons it'd get my warning bells ringing because this is often how paedophiles begin to groom but then again it could be completely innocent. If it was purely for music lessons then surely he should go through the parent, not approach the child directly.
PianoDoodler
QUOTE(Violinia @ Mar 14 2009, 12:16 AM) *
I think I told the story before about my cousin who teaches in a primary school in Vienna. I was observing her teaching last year and was amazed to see her hugging and kissing her pupils, lifting them on her knee, patting them on the head, cuddling them when they were distressed....

When I asked her if she was unusual in this, she said, baffled: 'how could I otherwise do my job?'

We're weirrrrrrd in England with our problems with touch. No wonder binge drinking is such an English problem - we're all so starved of basic human affection in our daily lives we need some way of unwinding...


agree.gif agree.gif agree.gif agree.gif agree.gif

Sorry, going over the top a bit, but this is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine.
Holz Gedeckt
QUOTE(PianoDoodler @ Mar 14 2009, 12:46 AM) *

QUOTE(Violinia @ Mar 14 2009, 12:16 AM) *
I think I told the story before about my cousin who teaches in a primary school in Vienna. I was observing her teaching last year and was amazed to see her hugging and kissing her pupils, lifting them on her knee, patting them on the head, cuddling them when they were distressed....

When I asked her if she was unusual in this, she said, baffled: 'how could I otherwise do my job?'

We're weirrrrrrd in England with our problems with touch. No wonder binge drinking is such an English problem - we're all so starved of basic human affection in our daily lives we need some way of unwinding...


agree.gif agree.gif agree.gif agree.gif agree.gif

Sorry, going over the top a bit, but this is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine.

Yes, me too. I mainly teach adults nowadays, and I frequently give pupils a hug or touch them on the arm or shoulder. I can think of at least two of my pupils today whom I hugged after they played especially well. Another one gave me a big kiss on the cheek after her lesson, as she always does.

It's very sad that, with children, teachers feel unable to do something which seems very natural, due to a tiny minority of s*x-offenders. What a pity that children are deprived of something as natural as being given a hug. sad.gif
skylark
QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Mar 14 2009, 01:01 AM) *

It's very sad that, with children, teachers feel unable to do something which seems very natural, due to a tiny minority of s*x-offenders. What a pity that children are deprived of something as natural as being given a hug. sad.gif


agree.gif

When I had the Eureka moment on my clarinet last week at my teacher's instigation, I really wanted to give her a "thank you" hug because I was so thrilled, but I didn't like to in case she thought it was an "invasion of her personal space" unsure.gif Although actually I suspect she wouldn't have minded because she was as pleased as I was biggrin.gif
dolce@piano
It's worth repeating that it is NOT illegal to touch a child.

It is, of course, illegal to touch a child 'inappropriately' i.e. in a sexual or violent manner.

Your particular school may also have 'no-touch' guidelines which, if you're covered by these, you better adhere to.

BUT, for the vast majority, there is nothing wrong in touching a child. If you feel it makes you a better teacher (like the woman in Vienna, and I do too), do not be defensive. Be clear about what you are doing, why you are doing it and look people in the eye.
maggiemay
QUOTE(skylark @ Mar 14 2009, 01:56 AM) *

QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Mar 14 2009, 01:01 AM) *

It's very sad that, with children, teachers feel unable to do something which seems very natural, due to a tiny minority of s*x-offenders. What a pity that children are deprived of something as natural as being given a hug. sad.gif


agree.gif

When I had the Eureka moment on my clarinet last week at my teacher's instigation, I really wanted to give her a "thank you" hug because I was so thrilled, but I didn't like to in case she thought it was an "invasion of her personal space" unsure.gif Although actually I suspect she wouldn't have minded because she was as pleased as I was biggrin.gif


I'm sure she wouldn't have minded. Isn't it sad that we have to think twice?

A few weeks ago, one of my pupils, a little boy of 7, ran from the car towards my porch and skidded on a wet patch of ground, nearly falling. My instinctive reaction was to step towards him with arms open to try to stop him falling. Happily he recovered his balance - just - and didn't need my intervention. But it was totally automatic, there was not time to think 'should I be doing this?'
Arundodonuts
QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Mar 14 2009, 01:01 AM) *

It's very sad that, with children, teachers feel unable to do something which seems very natural, due to a tiny minority of s*x-offenders. What a pity that children are deprived of something as natural as being given a hug. sad.gif

We live in a "damaged" society (if we have any society left at all).
jod
When I was 11, I went on a school trip to the dales. In the evening I wasn't feeling well, and intuitivly I sat on the head of music's lap as I needed a cuddle.

Of course he couldn't do this now without anything improper being insinuated. This is why I as a teacher, it is important to remember that the protocols for appropriate touch are there to protect you as a teacher as much as the pupil.

The teacher in question is now my accompanist, we've both spoken about our sadness about how risk assessments and how society has changed since 1981 has not necessarily been to the advantage of today's children.

Both of us are parents; he is a grandparent.

I hope that everything is above board with Edwardo's son's teacher, however certain boundaries that now should be in place do not appear to be, and for the sake of both parties they should be.

Just as there have been children hurt by teachers who have groomed them, there are teachers whose career's have been finished by false allegations.

I do not want either to happen in this case.
BerkshireMum
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Mar 14 2009, 08:03 AM) *

QUOTE(skylark @ Mar 14 2009, 01:56 AM) *

When I had the Eureka moment on my clarinet last week at my teacher's instigation, I really wanted to give her a "thank you" hug because I was so thrilled, but I didn't like to in case she thought it was an "invasion of her personal space" unsure.gif Although actually I suspect she wouldn't have minded because she was as pleased as I was biggrin.gif


I'm sure she wouldn't have minded. Isn't it sad that we have to think twice?

I had a really sad experience last summer. My son used to go to a county music class every Monday and I thought I'd got to know the very nice lady who ran this (who is probably around 30-35) quite well. After the final concert I went to thank her for all she'd done for my son and I gave her a kiss on the cheek (natural behaviour for me). Unfortunately, I could see her face change as I approached, and I knew she didn't want to be kissed; it was too late to draw back without making it obvious, so I pretended I hadn't seen and carried on. I've thought about it a lot since, though, and wished I'd never had the impulse. It was meant to be a nice gesture, but has just made me feel that the lady never really liked me at all; it's part of being a professional to appear to like parents and students whatever one's true feelings. sad.gif

So maybe you should trust your instinct, skylark, and forget the hugs. Not everyone does appreciate the invasion of their personal space.
Violinia
QUOTE(BerkshireMum @ Mar 14 2009, 11:41 AM) *

[I had a really sad experience last summer. My son used to go to a county music class every Monday and I thought I'd got to know the very nice lady who ran this (who is probably around 30-35) quite well. After the final concert I went to thank her for all she'd done for my son and I gave her a kiss on the cheek (natural behaviour for me). Unfortunately, I could see her face change as I approached, and I knew she didn't want to be kissed; it was too late to draw back without making it obvious, so I pretended I hadn't seen and carried on. I've thought about it a lot since, though, and wished I'd never had the impulse. It was meant to be a nice gesture, but has just made me feel that the lady never really liked me at all; it's part of being a professional to appear to like parents and students whatever one's true feelings. sad.gif

So maybe you should trust your instinct, skylark, and forget the hugs. Not everyone does appreciate the invasion of their personal space.


Perhaps the best thing to do when the person looks alarmed and it's too late for you to turn back is: the air kiss! That way they don't have the traumatic experience of being touched on their face by - horror or horrors - your lips! - and nobody has to get embarrassed.

Also, I don't think her discomfort at the idea of being kissed by you means she doesn't like you - it probably just means she hasn't joined in with all the kissing that's suddenly swept across our society and is only comfortable being kissed by family. Remember it's only recently that we've all started kissing each other in the uK...
jod
QUOTE(Violinia @ Mar 14 2009, 02:42 PM) *

QUOTE(BerkshireMum @ Mar 14 2009, 11:41 AM) *

[I had a really sad experience last summer. My son used to go to a county music class every Monday and I thought I'd got to know the very nice lady who ran this (who is probably around 30-35) quite well. After the final concert I went to thank her for all she'd done for my son and I gave her a kiss on the cheek (natural behaviour for me). Unfortunately, I could see her face change as I approached, and I knew she didn't want to be kissed; it was too late to draw back without making it obvious, so I pretended I hadn't seen and carried on. I've thought about it a lot since, though, and wished I'd never had the impulse. It was meant to be a nice gesture, but has just made me feel that the lady never really liked me at all; it's part of being a professional to appear to like parents and students whatever one's true feelings. sad.gif

So maybe you should trust your instinct, skylark, and forget the hugs. Not everyone does appreciate the invasion of their personal space.


Perhaps the best thing to do when the person looks alarmed and it's too late for you to turn back is: the air kiss! That way they don't have the traumatic experience of being touched on their face by - horror or horrors - your lips! - and nobody has to get embarrassed.

Also, I don't think her discomfort at the idea of being kissed by you means she doesn't like you - it probably just means she hasn't joined in with all the kissing that's suddenly swept across our society and is only comfortable being kissed by family. Remember it's only recently that we've all started kissing each other in the uK...

Reminds me of every time I greet my Dutch Aunt, I have no problems with the three kiss greeting, yet it seems to cause my mother all sorts of problems.
BerkshireMum
QUOTE(Violinia @ Mar 14 2009, 02:42 PM) *

QUOTE(BerkshireMum @ Mar 14 2009, 11:41 AM) *

[I had a really sad experience last summer. My son used to go to a county music class every Monday and I thought I'd got to know the very nice lady who ran this (who is probably around 30-35) quite well. After the final concert I went to thank her for all she'd done for my son and I gave her a kiss on the cheek (natural behaviour for me). Unfortunately, I could see her face change as I approached, and I knew she didn't want to be kissed; it was too late to draw back without making it obvious, so I pretended I hadn't seen and carried on. I've thought about it a lot since, though, and wished I'd never had the impulse. It was meant to be a nice gesture, but has just made me feel that the lady never really liked me at all; it's part of being a professional to appear to like parents and students whatever one's true feelings. sad.gif

So maybe you should trust your instinct, skylark, and forget the hugs. Not everyone does appreciate the invasion of their personal space.


Perhaps the best thing to do when the person looks alarmed and it's too late for you to turn back is: the air kiss! That way they don't have the traumatic experience of being touched on their face by - horror or horrors - your lips! - and nobody has to get embarrassed.

You're right, Violinia - that's definitely what I should have done. One thinks of these things afterwards! I usually go along with the "if in doubt, do nothing" advice, but that time it just caused me to carry on with what I'd planned instead of modifying the action. I don't think either of us was embarrassed, but it certainly changed my feelings. I haven't seen the lady since, but hope she wasn't as traumatised by the experience as I was!

I think I must move in different circles from yours, Violinia, as I've been kissing some of my friends for 20 years or more. I wouldn't normally kiss someone who wasn't a friend, which was why I felt sad about the reaction - although I thought of her as a friend, she evidently didn't feel the same way. Life is full of these little lessons and rebuffs, and although by my age one ought not to mind, somehow it doesn't seem to work that way.
maggiemay
I'm sorry you had this reaction B-Mum - however, you never know, the lady concerned might be equally regretful in retrospect that she didn't respond more positively.
lucky045
QUOTE(BerkshireMum @ Mar 14 2009, 11:41 AM) *

QUOTE(maggiemay @ Mar 14 2009, 08:03 AM) *

QUOTE(skylark @ Mar 14 2009, 01:56 AM) *

When I had the Eureka moment on my clarinet last week at my teacher's instigation, I really wanted to give her a "thank you" hug because I was so thrilled, but I didn't like to in case she thought it was an "invasion of her personal space" unsure.gif Although actually I suspect she wouldn't have minded because she was as pleased as I was biggrin.gif


I'm sure she wouldn't have minded. Isn't it sad that we have to think twice?

I had a really sad experience last summer. My son used to go to a county music class every Monday and I thought I'd got to know the very nice lady who ran this (who is probably around 30-35) quite well. After the final concert I went to thank her for all she'd done for my son and I gave her a kiss on the cheek (natural behaviour for me). Unfortunately, I could see her face change as I approached, and I knew she didn't want to be kissed; it was too late to draw back without making it obvious, so I pretended I hadn't seen and carried on. I've thought about it a lot since, though, and wished I'd never had the impulse. It was meant to be a nice gesture, but has just made me feel that the lady never really liked me at all; it's part of being a professional to appear to like parents and students whatever one's true feelings. sad.gif

So maybe you should trust your instinct, skylark, and forget the hugs. Not everyone does appreciate the invasion of their personal space.


You do remember these things, don't you! A couple of times I've gone to hug people - actual friends, who've looked embarrassed and not really wanted to hug back. I hug everyone, so it's a bit weird, but since the last time it happened I've turned into someone a bit like that, not wanting to hug people just in case it's awkward. Some people are just naturally not very tactile I know, but you can't help but take it personally.

As to the original post - I know that the media blows things way out of proportion, and I don't hold with ridiculous witch hunts. When I'm around little children, of course I hug them, pick them up, and so on. It's natural and a part of playing with them. Even so, though, if it made your son uncomfortable it might be worth mentioning that he's just not particularly tactile, and doesn't appreciate being touched too much.
The alarm bells certainly do go off at the thought of an invitation to the teacher's home!

Maybe the most worrying aspect of the story, though is the fact that your son thought to mention it. I think instinct is an incredibly important thing - I remember going to a piano teacher when I was younger, usually for help with aural tests, who never did anything weird at all, no inappropriate touching, nothing, but I felt very, very weird around him, and quit as soon as I could, finding a different teacher next time I needed similar help. Later I discovered that there had been several complaints made about him, and he had been known around the area for "liking his little girl pupils a little bit too much". So if your son feels uncomfortable, and he's not a naturally nervous sort of person, there might be something in it.
Violinia
QUOTE(BerkshireMum @ Mar 14 2009, 02:56 PM) *

You're right, Violinia - that's definitely what I should have done. One thinks of these things afterwards! I usually go along with the "if in doubt, do nothing" advice, but that time it just caused me to carry on with what I'd planned instead of modifying the action. I don't think either of us was embarrassed, but it certainly changed my feelings. I haven't seen the lady since, but hope she wasn't as traumatised by the experience as I was!

I think I must move in different circles from yours, Violinia, as I've been kissing some of my friends for 20 years or more. I wouldn't normally kiss someone who wasn't a friend, which was why I felt sad about the reaction - although I thought of her as a friend, she evidently didn't feel the same way. Life is full of these little lessons and rebuffs, and although by my age one ought not to mind, somehow it doesn't seem to work that way.


I've just observed that some people are more comfortable with all the kissing (on both cheeks, which is definitely new) than others. In one very kissy household I know, one of the teenage daughters goes round kissing every single guest on both cheeks just before she goes off to bed, whether she's met them before or not, just like in French households. And I still think you might have got the wrong end of the stick with this woman - she probably just didn't feel comfortable kissing anyone except family and/or close friends and it was nothing personal at all - I'm sure she likes you just fine!
notmusimum


I think it's very interesting that the parent hasn't just spoken ot the teacher and found out exactly what is going on. In my opinion that is always the first thing that should happen. I've no problem with things being esculated if the teacher doesn't respond or the answer isn't satisfactory.

The invite to the home might be concening but at least find out the facts surrounding it first. He might have said, "I teach extra lessons at my home on a weekend if you are interested" or something to that effect.

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