I know this sounds a bit (well, a lot...) of a stupid question, but I was wondering what the differences in playing violin and viola are. What started me thinking was someone, in another thread, compared a viola teacher teaching violin with a flute teacher teaching clarinet or a trombone teacher teaching trumpet.

The impression I'd got was that a viola was just a bigger version of the violin, so the only differences that would mean for playing it would be obviously reading the alto clef and generally scaling up all the fingerings and movements. Apart from those two, are the instruments the same or does each have its own techniques?

Sorry if I've managed to offend any violin or viola players, I was just curious.

Well, at the basic level, the viola is a larger sized violin shaped instrument.

It isn't just a big violin, though - for a start, the viola's proportions are different to those of a violin - and there's no standard size in viola, you buy the size that fits you.

Then, the instrument has greater inertia than the violin, so getting it to 'speak' requires more effort - the response is slower and it's harder to draw out a good tone - at higher levels this requires a different use of the bow.

Vibrato techniques also need to be wider and more often come from the arm, rather than the wrist.

The size and weight of the instrument often require creative body strategies to hold it properly without injury.

If a violin teacher plays the viola properly too, then teaching it is not a problem, but if they don't, then teaching just because it looks the same could cause all kinds of problems for a student.

One could argue that the cello is just a really large violin, yet one would find it wierd if a violinist who did not play the cello took it upon themselves to teach it - or vice versa. The same holds true for the viola.

Allan

But surely it's not as different as a flute is from a clarinet? I'd have thought it was more like the difference between a Bb and a bass clarinet, where again there are relatively small differences in technique.

There's a big difference between cello and violin or viola, because the bow hold and the way the instrument is held are not the same at all. My daughter took up viola for a year alongside her violin and didn't have much trouble at all with the instrument; reading the alto clef was much the most difficult part of changing over.

There are many more jokes about viola players......
I'm sorry, i can't do links but if you tap 'viola jokes' into google there are a couple of good sites....

(runs and hides)

Thanks Allan

It's just that being a recorder player, I have to deal with different sizes of instrument that are 'the same' but with subtle differences. I would have thought the differing breath pressures required by different sizes would be comparable to the different bow pressures required between violin and viola. Yet a recorder teacher will teach (and play) most sizes and adapt to each one as is needed.

Also, you play the cello 'upsidedown' compared to the violin or viola, so, I would have thought, it would feel completely different to play.

Again, I would like to stress that I am trying not to cause offense

No offense!

Usually, when a violinist also plays viola a bit, using the same technique - you can spot instantly that they're a violinist and not a real viola player. It just doesn't sound right - the sound is too light and not rich enough. You can always spot the violinists who find the viola 'easy'....

It's all down to the bow and dynamics of the instrument.

Properly trained, though, most violinists have no difficulty playing viola too, just as viola players who are properly trained in violin have no difficulty switching.

The point isn't that the instruments are hugely different, but that teachers who don't actually play the viola properly shouldn't teach it - because they will teach you to play it like a violin and it won't sound right. If a teacher plays both instruments well, there's no trouble in shifting over.

I agree that the difference isn't as huge as a flute and a clarinet, though!

What Allan says seems reasonable to me (except using 'viola player' instead of 'violist' when using 'violinist' for the 'violin player'!!! Standardisation!!!). I find using a violin quite 'odd' on the infrequent occasions I get to paly one. I wouldn't mind playing a bit more to see how big the difference feels even to a beginner like me.

I was one of those who thought viola is just larger and has a different range. Shows how ignorant I am. Thanks for the great information.

But on a lighter note, if you show me a viola alone, without any other instrument beside it for comparison, I would think it is a violin. Ah, the violists must be throwing violins at me now for my poor eyesight. Is there no minimum size for a viola? I am wondering whether size affects range/pitch...

Love the comment about the cello arguably being a large violin. Atlas or Hercules might want to play the cello as a violin

At least the principles of fingering on violin and viola are similar, while the cello differs from both. Acoustically, most violas are "too small" for their lowest register, so that it is somewhat more difficult to make a good viola than a good violin. A composer needs to be aware that most violas will not make on their C string the rich sound of the violin G string. The larger ("Tertis" concept") viola gives lower pitched resonances, but a good, even sound still requires the air and plate resonances to be complementary.

I was browsing through my music dictionary the other day which was all very formal etc. and i got to letter V and it said 'Viola joke. A standard type of musical humour. Examples include... *list of viola jokes*'


Back on topic though i don't find much difference except that viola takes a lot more physical effort but that's probably because i'm so small!



...
How do you get a violist to play pianissimo tremolando?
Mark it 'solo'

*runs*

Violas range from 14 to 18 inches long (measuring the length of the back), although a full-size violin is 14 inches.

Although he might want to watch out for the end pin....

Violas burn for longer

And SueHM dares to post this in the presence of a Contemporary Artist who just happens to have a spare viola..........

(it also burns longer because it is usually still in it's case.........!)




(hides even further away...)

OFF TOPIC, but needs saying, I feel:

Viola jokes really just aren't funny, so unless you actually mean to be insulting, please keep them strictly off this forum!

And before anyone starts on the 'there goes another over-sensitive violist' nonsense, I would feel the same if it were about any instrument/group of people, regardless of whether I happened to fit into it or not. I'm afraid this sort of thing falls into the same sort of thing as poking fun at any one group of people just for the sake of it, like jokes about black people, women, Belgians etc. They aren't funny and they are offensive, so please remember that (see the 'Forum Rules') when posting around here. This thread was not inviting people to post rubbish, but to ask a serious question. If you've no suitable contribution to make, please refrain from making any!

uh what. the reason jokes about women or blacks or other groups are offensive is that these people have suffered (and still suffer, in some cases) hundreds or thousands of years of oppression, discrimination, slavery, genocide and other wrongs; turning that into a joke is what makes it offensive. unless i missed something, there's no history of gross human rights violations against violists--to compare the two is, frankly, rather offensive and arrogant itself.

that doesn't mean you can't make jokes about any of these people, though. i don't know if you ever heard/saw the BBC sketch comedy "Goodness Gracious Me"--it was very funny, and won several awards; yet its entire premise was poking fun at Indian culture in Britain. is that too offensive for polite society now? and are we no longer allowed to make jokes about hip-hop culture (because it's racist) or soccer moms (because it's sexist)?

i'd hope never to see actual hate jokes on the forum, but i'm afraid jokes about violists aren't even close to the same. (and btw: there are enough jokes about fiddlers, folk musicians, or people who drink real ale that you couldn't tell all of them in a lifetime; sure, it can be tiresome, but i'm not about to go live in some remote cave to avoid all those horrible people.)

Hi Elisabeth,

Not sure if you're serious here but I feel you might be being a tad oversensitive here. Jokes about other instruments have always had a place in music (one of my favourites being the one about guitarists spending half their lives tuning up and the other half playing out of tune) and most of the time are very funny (and in the case of the guitarist one, not too far away from the truth mores the pity).

As to comparing them with jokes about ethnic origin or gender, that really is an apples and parmesan cheese comparison. To the best of my knowledge no-one has ever been lynched or denied the vote (just two examples) due to their choosing to play the Viola, in fact one might say that to compare the two and imply parity was in itself offensive (and I speak as someone who is of mixed ethnic origin so has had to deal with this type of thing in the past).

Is there actually a forum rule stating "No Viola jokes"?

Cheers,

Matt.

Edit: Posted round about the same time without seeing River's post.

For **** sake whats going on with the forumites today! Moaning, complaining, dictating to each other, people threatening to leave (then staying!) Now someones TELLING us to keep viola (other instruments???) jokes of the topic list! My daughter and her two friends play the viola G8+ . One is black, female and disabled!! How many more issues can you add to that! The H.o. Music plays a viola - he tells the most hilarious jokes about violists! They (the players) are not in the least bit offended as it is not a power issue or an oppresive issue here. See Matt Molloy's eloquent response.

Viola jokes (and other instruments) are funny and NOT offensive and are not excluded by the Forum rules! I could say if you are a "sensitive forumite" then dont read them.

There is so much on here that I find offensive, hilarious, absolutely stupid, childish, insulting and numerous other words that I cant write, , or I go off an moan to my husband about the ** on this forum who write rubbish non stop. Or more frequently I write a furious response AND THEN DELETE IT!

But more often than not I just skip it to the stuff that is funny, informative and pleasant that I am interested in.

Oh *** have I fallen for a troll

i agree with the above people. I don't find any instrument realted jokes offensive, just funny, and I don't think that they are in any way comparable to jokes about black people/women/beligina.
x

RUNS AND HIDES FIRST.......

I probably only know so many because I usually get told them in theatre pits..... when playing my vile-lola


Lighten up, everyone.... pleeeeeese!

Yes, of COURSE I'm being over-sensitive. After all, isn't that pretty much always the case when someone objects to unjustified ridicule?? It's, quite naturally, the fault of the person/group who is/are the target of the 'jokes', never indeed that of the idiot who makes them! How stupid of me to have ever thought anything different.

If people are likely to find something offensive, even in the least bit, and even if certain individuals think they're 'over-sensitive' to do so, then they are best NOT introduced on-forum.

Absolutely. So glad you understand

Love your signature by the way

I agree with everyone The last thing i'd wanna do is offend you Elisabeth, you are one of my favourite people on these forums But most violists don't find viola jokes offensive... i don't find violin or flute or soprano or any other jokes offensive, the only way i'd find it offensive, is if someone MEANT to offend me. Which obviously they don't
I found that quite off character for you, i thought you were joking at first... were you?
As i've said, NEVER want to offend you

Also, the majority of viola jokes are told to me by violists I also don't get how they're different to other jokes...
Well
I'm just a little bit baffled And can't tell whether this is all a joke or not I'll sure look silly now if it is a joke

W

Unjustified ridicule....... But I thought we were talking about the Viola?

Seriously, the above is a JOKE!!! Not meant to be taken seriously... No Viola players were harmed in the making of it.... No offence to Violists meant at all (particularly as I keep getting a hankering to play the instrument in question but know that my wife would kill me if I introduced yet another instrument into the house).

Elisabeth, I usually find your posts fun and great to read and loved the sig about the Chaotic Wannabe Violist (I think that was you), so I'm genuinely baffled by the last couple of posts from you. I don't for a moment think that you honestly saw Viola jokes as being on a par with jokes about ethnic origin or gender so am wondering if it was spur of the moment rhetoric (happens to us all), a really bad day or if it's all a big wind up?

Thanks to Ayshah by the way for describing my post as "eloquent". I felt about ten feet tall..... Till I went to chat to the wife and tripped over my own tongue again.

Cheers,

Matt.

Reading this thread with interest I find myself wondering about the origin of all the viola jokes?
The viola (and player) does seem to have generated an enormous amount of humour and whilst enjoying it I think maybe I have missed something. Now I fully expect my enquiry to spark off some more of it but really, why aren't other instruments as inspiring?

I am rather enjoying my viola again and although my playing is a joke in itself, it does sound quite nice at times.

N

Banjo jokes are just as common as viola jokes, and indeed many of the viola jokes seem to have originated as banjo jokes.

Add me to the list of violists who love to hear and tell viola jokes. I don't see anything offensive in them, and in my experience violists tend to like them more than non-violists.

I believe it comes from a time when most viola sections were made up of violinists who didn't quite cut the mustard in 2nd violins. Since about mid 20c the viola has been taken much more seriously and performance standards have risen.

You will probably find that most instrument jokes are the same apart from the name of the instrument inserted and most are not terribly clever. I do like this one though (look away if you find viola jokes offensive):

Why do people scream when a man walks into a bank with a violin case?
Because they think he's going to whip out a machine gun.
Why do people scream when a man walks into a bank with a viola case?
Because they think he's going to whip out a viola.

By the way, I did used to play viola, I now play button accordion and I am a morris dancer. I think you can safely assume I can take it when people crack a joke at my expense. Oh and I've been playing oboe for a while - talk about stark, staring mad!!

I know we've had it before but I like this one:

Q: What's the definition of a minor second?

A: Two oboes playing in unison

And another one...

How do you get two violists in tune?

Shoot one

What's the difference between a viola and a vacuum?

You have to plug in the vacuum before it sucks






(I don't ACTUALLY think viola sucks, i love viola, the jokes are just funny )

How are viola players like harpists?

They only play open strings and pizzicato



........

Just to redress the balance a little.

You do know that violins are the same size as violas don't you? It's just the violinists heads that make them look smaller.

True...

Well, I think we have gone a little off topic. The poor original poster who was only making a sensible inquiry about the difference between violins and violas has now been exposed to a torrent of terrible jokes. (The last one was my favourite)
N

Kid to his mother.

"I want to be a guitarist when I grow up."

Mother replies,

"Now dear, you can't do both."

Here we go....

Cheers,

Matt.

Keep 'em coming.....

I don't know if this will get me banned for implicitly foul language, but this is my favourite:

"What's the difference between a (insert victimised and oppressed breed of string player of your choice here) and a seamstress?"

"One tucks up frills, and the other......"

What's the definition of perfect pitch?

Managing to get the banjo down the well without hitting any of the accordions balanced on the sides.

Cheers,

Matt.

How many double bass players does it take to change a light bulb?

Three - one to hold the bulb and two to drink till the room spins round.


How many first violins does it take to change a light bulb?

Two - one to change the bulb and one to tell him he could do it better.


How many second violins does it take to change a light bulb

They can't get up that high

How many violists does it take to change a light bulb?

None - the pianist can do it with her left hand.

Why is it silly to push a car of a cliff with three violists in it?


Answer:

Because you can fit at least four violists in a car.



(I have nothing against the viola myself - I own one, play it and teach it!)

Ok What's the best way to protect your violin from being stolen?

(Keep it in a viola case.)

N

Which reminds me. An accordionist woke up one morning to realise he had left his box on the back seat of his car overnight outside the house - unlocked. He rushed down expecting it to have gone, but on the back seat he saw two accordions.


It is the "too small body" that makes them sound like a viola - rather than a violin which goes lower. I suppose one could argue that once you get onto the G string, the viola's body is too big?

My teacher used a Tertis. I (generally) prefer the sound of smaller bodied violas - they have a somewhat recessed (and reticent?) sound.

No, the clever shape of the violin family gives many resonant modes, in the plates and in the air inside the box, over a large frequency range. In a well-made instrument they overlap evenly so that any playable note is supported, but this is most difficult to achieve in the bottom register of violas and double basses, because in these the lowest air resonance is usually further above the pitch of the bottom string than in violins and 'cellos. You can lower the lowest wood resonance by making the plates thinner, but then the danger is that increased stresses fatigue the wood and shorten the life of the instrument. The same problem affects guitars: the best instruments have the thinnest wood and the shortest life.

what's the difference between the first and second desk of violas?
A semitone.


What's the difference between and violin and a viola?
Nothing, the violinists head is bigger so the instrument appears smaller, but they are in fact the same size.


What's the difference between a viola and a trampoline?
You take your shoes off to jump on a trampoline.

Two viola players knock on your door, how do you decide which one to let in first?

No need, they never come in together

Whilst on the subject of instrument jokes, here's a picture I just found. Those of a nervous disposition, don't look.

http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/ippusai/imgs/3/8/38698b44.jpg