Our neighbour came round to complain today about the piano noise.

They complained after they moved in (?5 years ago) so we moved the piano from backing on to their house to a wall perpendicular to their house. We live in a pair of Victorian semis, with floorboards going through.

The previous neighbours hadn't complained - although I suspect part of that was that they used the room next to our piano room as a dining room, whereas our current neighbours use it as a lounge. Also, there was less practice going on then.

I am aware of the problem - earlier this year we replaced our digital piano with a Kemble upright acoustic and son No 1 (14, taking Grade 7 next week) can really fill the house with sound, to the extent that if i'm studying upstairs I have to tell him to shut all the doors. We also have Son no 2 learning (grade 1 in the summer) and myself (working towards grade 5 - ish).

I have instructed Son No 1 to ensure he does his piano practice when he gets in from school, so that the really noisy practice will be out of the way by the time the neighbours settle down for the evening. Son No 2 and I have to use the 7-8 pm slot, but we are not nearly as noisy (although I suspect some noise will carry, I hope it wqould not be clearly audible above a TV). Son No 1 may end up doing his cello practice after 8pm, although I think that is less of a problem - and if all else fails, the cello can be moved into the lounge for practice!

Is there anything else I can do? My husband may look into soundproofing but I suspect that it may not be possible to do much). I don't want to cause a problem for the neighbours (although I felt like telling him where to go) but piano practice is non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned.

Any advice? Has anyone else gone through this?

I really think this is a case where you neighbours are being a tad on the unreasonable side.

They live in a semi and sound travels. It isn't as if your teaching at all hours, and 8pm is hardly anti-social.

I would quietly explain to them that of all the things young people could be getting up to practising the piano is on the mild scale. Would they rather all your kids mates congregate outside your house and have an under-age drinking session or wild parties until 1am?

Your children could be listening to loud music through sound systems straight through their party wall, or you could have a yappy dog that barks loudly everytime the phone rings or the you have a visitor.

When they viewed the house did they notice you had children?

I'd let your children continue to play the piano, and next time they complain, ask them would they rather your children did. At least your children seem to be doing something useful with their time.

Is the piano up against a wall?
If so, get maybe two or three high 'tog' double blankets, and put them between the Wall and the Piano. This will greatly reduce the sound that goes back and onto the wall, but there will still be enough for practice purposes, and if need be they are easy to remove.
so... if h = piano (pianoy shape) and | = one blanket, and : = the wall....

: ||| h

We live in a Victorian terraced house; I teach from about 3.45 to 8pm each weekday evening (a mixture of piano, clarinet and recorder pupils of all ages and standards) during term-time, and do my own practice as well as having several adult pupils during the mornings, so there is a LOT of musical noise going on here!

I use our second 'reception' room as my music room, and shortly after we moved in (over 20 years ago now) we partially soundproofed that room with a special lead lining which was like big rolls of wallpaper but made of a flexible thick sort of material - we had seen it a few years previous to that on Tomorrow's World, and found out the details and ordered it from the company concerned.

I seem to remember it was expensive, but it has done sterling service - you can't properly soundproof homes like ours, but with the lining covering the party wall and the wall to our own living room, it becomes reduced to bearable proportions for those who don't actually WANT to hear people playing for so many hours while they are perhaps trying to relax!

I'm sure I've read somewhere that one can create a similar effect by using eggboxes - though one would have to eat a good many eggs to get enough boxes - and creating a false wall with the egg-boxes in the cavity.

I think this is an urban myth

I think the physics behind it are quite plausible, from what I can recall from out of the dim recesses of what's left of my mind about a physics lesson long ago. I think the shape of the underneath of an eggbox is meant to absorb and dissipate sound waves, and the cardboard is absorbent too.

Isn't there some sort of soundproofing material which has regular 'lumps' on it much the same size and shape as the underneath of an eggbox?

I like the diagram!

My sister has to put up with her elderly neighbour's television. It's loud, because she's hard of hearing, and it goes on until late, because she falls asleep in front of it. When my nephew was young he often couldn't get to sleep because the sound travelled up to his bedroom. I'm pretty sure she would far rather have had some decent piano music.

It sounds as though you are taking reasonable steps, and some sort of lagging as described by HC could help too. I know part of the TV problem my sister suffered was because it was backed right against the wall.

I lived in a house once where I couldn't hear anything of our next-door neighbour except when he sneezed

The effective way to protect your neighbours and the rest of your household from the sound is to build an acoustically isolated room within a room.

http://www.acousticbooth-studiobox.com/

But it is far from cheap.

A cheaper option would be to replace your Kemble upright with a Yamaha silent piano, and restrict the length of time that it is used in acoustic mode.

The U1S is a lovely piano and i have seem second-hand ones in excellent condition for under £3,000

Whilst not wanting to diminish in any way what you are going through it is pretty mild compared to a situation I found myself in a number of years ago.

We had some very intolerant adjoining neighbours who wouldn't accept my piano practice at all (At this time I also rarely dared play my clarinet/saxophone at home) I was really nervous and got myself worked up about playing the piano because everytime I did next doors put their music on incredibley loudly. This escalated to the point where if I so much as played 2 notes their heavy metal music came through the wall so loudly I couldn't hear my own playing. I had no chice but not to play unless they were out.

On top of this, any time the adults went out their teenage daughter blasted her music (CD system) through the wall at top volume. This could go on for hours if they were out all day. We left them many letters asking to discuss this which were ignored. We then phoned the police to report noise pollution on a number of occasions. But they said they couldn't do anything.

<snip part of post deleted >

I really do sympathise. It's not a nice situation to be in but please try to reason with these people and look like you are accomodating them as much as you can. I'd hate for anyone to go through what we did.

Methinks a rank of 16' stopped diapasons against the party wall might just have solved that little problem.

Seriously though, it might be a good idea to ask your neighbour if you can listen to the noise whilst somebody is playing so you have a better idea of what the neigbours can actually hear - and more to the point, where they can hear it.

If it is a low frequency sound of keys being thumped, but little music, it is likely that the noise is being transferred via the floor joists, in which case the ideal solution may be a concrete floor in the piano room - if practicable.

If it is higher frequency sounds of the notes themselves, the noise could be getting through gaps in the wall, (usually beneth the floor or possibly above the ceiling); especially if both houses share the same floor joists. A heavy carpet and underlay may help here, but a concrete floor would probably be better.

Noise doesn't generally get through solid walls unless they have a large surface area or are poorly constructed. Consequently, sound deadening is not usually helpful unless the shared wall area is large or the wall is badly built.

HTH

SB

I would have thought that concrete was pretty good, until I lived in a flat which was essentially concrete construction with three floors. Although living on the ground floor, I could hear the girl on the top floor doing her piano practice quite easily. She was brilliant, so I didn't mind, but I'm not sure what the guy in the flat above me thought of it!)

Mole

Yes there is, although it's made of foam (or a material that looks and feels very similar to foam). We had it in the practice rooms at university.

Concrete has some interesting acoustic properties.

As an aintermediate floor, concrete will transmit audio frequencies more or less equally, (away from resonant frequency anyhow), but the attenuation is much better, and more linear than wood.

However, if the concrete is laid directly onto ballast it provides almost complete sound deadening, but of course noise can still get through gaps and cracks.

There are some excellent commercal products, such as those used in ships engine rooms and machinersy spaces; but these are very expensive. (This is the lead and foam sandwich material)

All in all, I think you really need to work out what the problem is, and where the noise is getting through beofre spending any money.

SB

This stuff is used in the boatbuilding industry to soundproof engine compartments - its very effective.

That's evidently why I've always sailed in yachts with noisy engines!

The Kemble pianos also have a Silent range of pianos, and it's actually the Yamaha's Silent System that is installed (not surprising, seeing as Yamaha own at least 25% of Kemble now). I bought a Kemble Conservatoire Silent last year, for the same reason as the poster (neighbours - but even worse as ours were giving us threats and the police have been involved - NIGHTMARE!). I think that Kemble can actually install this system after purchase - or at least that's what the salesman told me.

We live in a flat and when my daughter practises the piano, the people above and below hear it. Although no-one has complained, it has been mentioned on several occasions in a hinting way. The people above are young and make lots of noise themselves so we don't mind if they can hear during the daytime (we wouldn't play it after 6pm) but the downstairs people are elderly and quiet so we do mind disturbing them.

We have solved the problem by buying a Yamaha electric piano (which operates like a real piano) which my daughter practises on when the downstairs neighbours are in and which lives in her bedroom - luckily they live abroad for half the year - and the regular piano when they are away. Having the electric one is also good for playing quietly early in the morning before we are up.

Thank you all for support and comments - the piano now has a duvet between the back and the wall which seems to stop quite a bit of the reverberation - it certainly made some difference when Son No 1 did his practice earlier. The sound is different, but we will just have to get used to it.

Having said that, I pointed out to Son No 1 that it is yet another reason for him to get a highly paid job (he does not intend to be a performance musician) so that he can keep me in the style to which I would like to become accustomed - to include a detatched house with a sound-proofed music room!

The neighbour will have to put up with a certain amount of noise - I have always made the boys complete piano practice before 8pm and that will not change. However, I consider that playing the piano (or any other instrument) is a reasonable use of one's home - and, as Jod said, at least they're doing something constructive (the youth of today do let us down!)

Let's hope that neighbour's children take up instruments in time - and no, I will not complain about practice (unless after 10pm) as it is one of the best things they can do!

if the neighbours do, you could always find out what they are playing, and get the music, and accompany them (without telling them)

That would be quite funny haha.

We were lucky. Hubby was able to buy our first house (an ex-council 1940's semi) at the bottom of the price rise, and now we live in a detached house (house no 2).

He keeps on about wanting a larger house (he was brought up in one). However I feel we're really lucky here. There is a plus side too. If we stay where we are we have a chance of paying the Mortgage off in full before the term is up.

We were able to build an extension last year which we use as my music room. Everything is paid for.

Sure, he has a well paid job, but because of the point he was able to get onto the property market, we've been able to do all of this based on his income alone. Mine is the icing on the cake.

Our neighbours are more concerned about their children being a noise nuisance than my teaching practice!

It would probably be some tuneless, computer generated dross intended only to sell MP3 downloads, so I doubt that anyone could accompany it with a proper musical instrument even if they wanted to.

It may be of little comfort, but nobody is immune to complaints about noise.

Our son was practicing on the organ at church during the summer holidays when the Open Church ladies were on duty. Now most days the Open Church people love to hear some music, but on Wednesdays the flower ladies go in, and they like to put the world to rights over a cup of tea and scones, and I suppose organ music prevents them from whispering skeet and scandal to each other as they do.

One of the ladies had asked our son whether he really needed to pull out so many stops just to play a few hymns, and suggested that perhaps he 'could use one of the quiet little stops, and then pull out the bigger ones on Sunday'.

Being a typical 14 year old, he responded by playing some Bach rather loudly, which was probably not very diplomatic, so they said they would speak to the Rector. I don't think the Rector was any more understanding as they went on strike for three weeks, which he was quite happy about as he suffers from Hay Fever.

Never mind Middle East Peace Envoys and noisy neighbours. I reckon even the United Nations would struggle with church flower ladies!

SB

I live in a detached house with quite a lot of space in between the houses either side but they can still hear everything
Luckily they're very nice and they always tell me how they enjoy listening to me play (and i know that they're not lieing and just actually hinting, as their grandson once told me in school that they told him they like to listen to me ) which is very nice, but i wish they couldn't hear me! I don't mind so much with my instruments... but singing I sing so loudly I barely ever practise singing because i REALLY don't want them to hear me (plus i only sing when no-one is in my house )... i shut all the doors and windows and everything but i still don't think it's enough.
Bleh !

My teacher booked a church for the annual pupils' concert. The concert did not start until the afternoon but my teacher had booked the church for the whole day, at a not inconsiderable expense. However, while we were trying to rehearse, the church flower lady decided that she had to do the flowers at that exact time, and was trying to block rather important areas of our stage with said flowers! My teacher had to diplomatically ask her to go away and do the flowers later, and the lady initially refused. Teacher had to spend several minutes pointedly expaining that we had booked the church for the whole day, and that she would have to do the flowers later. When the lady discovered we had the church until 6, she was not too impressed, and made it out as if she was being dreadfully incovenienced and she was doing us a huge favour!

Since the weather has turned nice and people have had their windows open for the past week, I have been listening to someone practising the piano on the other side of the road, down the street.

I wouldn't mind but they have been playing the same piece all week!

We've got students nextdoor who had a noisy fight which ended up with one of them covered in blood. We've complained to the landlord about their noisy behaviour on the street several times, shouting and swearing at 4 in the morning and a previous fight.

Eventually they came round to make peace, dropping a large hint that they can hear my daughter playing an instrument in a morning. It would be Oboe and is definately after 10 on a weekend. They also used to hear us calling the? dog (weren't sure which animal). My reaction tough!!

We built a house last year and part of the brief for the architect was a quiet house as my wife has ME and is very sensitive to noise. does not say much for my piano playing!!!!! There are a number of accoustic boards which help dampen sounds and it may be possible to installl something like this on the party wall. Sitting the piano on a board may also help reduce vibration which can travel a long way. The key seems to be reducing the amount of vibration by having as few connected surfaces as possible, and avoiding creating hollow spaces that will act like a sound box. A sympathetic architect or accoustic engineer should be able to advise. Good luck

But should one have to go to such trouble because the neighbours complained?

If the noise is music and only at "a reasonable hour" - which actually means from 7am to 11pm (not that I would personally call those extremes reasonable...) I really think a bit of give and take and mutual tolerance is really what's necessary.

I hear my neighbours' children thudding along the upstairs landing - usually before we are up on a weekend (and we have little children too) There can also be shouting, whooping etc. I hear their kitchen drawers opening and closing as they adjoin our wall. They aren't whisper close and close with quite a bang. The sound travels along the wall and up to our bedroom so if they retire late or rise early this can be disturbing our sleep. I hear their telly - particularly loud if watching a DVD. If they have guests you can hear the loud noise of a "party". But I would not dream of complaining. We live in a semi and to me (and them) accepting each others' noise is part and parcel of that. As well as our music I expect they hear our TV at times, we also have drawers (upstairs) which probably bang shut. We also have small children and occasional gatherings. And they would never complain either. Because we respect each others right to live as they wish within their own house and don't consider any of this to be excessive noise.

All these noises which aren't of your own making become "background" and the only time I'm aware of them is if theres a lot of shouting etc or the speakers are too loud when the TV's first switched on AND funily when their house is silent - I then notice something's missing.

So maybe instead of running to a huge expense if you don't feel that you are making excessive amounts of noise you should simply try to talk to your neighbours about it. there may be specific times they'd rather you avoid and other times when they are not actually so bothered. Point out that music is one of the nicer noises you could be making and see if you can reach an arrangement agreeable to both without causing you a great deal of work and expense.

In a word, No!

Sadly, the law in this county entitles householders to a 'peaceful existence', which is reasonable enough, but this is open to whatever interpretation anyone cares to apply to it.

There are regular stories in the papers of people (usually townies) who move to a village and then complain about the smell of farm animals or church bells. We have had similar incidents in our own village over the past few years:

Firstly, we have had a village hall for well over 120 years, and everyone knows it is there, as it says 'Parish Hall' outside. However, some townies moved into the adjoining house, and then immediately complained about the WI ladies singing Jerusalem, Boy Scouts shouting Dib Dib Dib and Girl Guides dancing on the wooden floor.
The new residents threatened to take out an injunction to stop the hall being used, and the Parish Council felt they had no option to close the hall until soundproofing work had been carried out. This has now been done at a cost of nearly £600,000 to local residents, and in the meantime the aggrieved neighbours have divorced and moved out.

We had a similar problem at a Community Association Hall (a 300 year old former Rectory) nearby, which has been used for social purposes for well over 30 years. In this case the new residents complained about choir practices on Fridays nights and the noise of chairs being moved.

Whilst I accept the right to a peaceful existence, surely there should be some obligation to make reasonable enquiries before moving into a new property?

As it happens, we live about three miles from the A1M, and when we have our windows open in the summer I can hear traffic in the quiet of night. We can also hear trains on the East Coast Main Line. Now, I wonder if the Transport Minister would close those for me?

SB

And within reasonable times what about the right to learn to play an instrument?
If we are to restrict the right to practice an instrument (during reasonable hours ) then lets equally restrict the right to practice ANY hobby/ pastime.
Knitting only allowed for half an hour at a time on 3 days a week?
No sketching or painting at weekends?

Ok.. so an instrument does make some 'noise' and 'practice' isn't a concert but there are plenty of other noises that are allowed with less complaint and learning an instrument is surely a more than worthwhile activity.

I don't dissagree with you, but that is what the Law says at present. Unfortunately, there will always be those who intepret these things to their own advantage, and [insert word of choice] anyone else.

SB

My neighbours always used to complain about my piano playing.
They are a family of 4, with 2 kids who also play violin, and someone there plays keyboard and guitar I think, so personally I think they were being really hypocritical and unreasonable.. we could hear them a lot too, but never complained.
Anyway, we ended up stuffing a duvet behind the piano against the wall, stuffing a towel into the space under the keyboard bit, which really made the piano sound dodgy. It's still like that now.. We agreed to only play between the hours of 11am-6pm. Not like they stuck to it

I say there's no point of soundproofing just to please them! They should be more understanding and appreciate the fact that you're playing music

We used to have noisy neighbours and it does wear you down.

Ours used to get up at 5am and do the housework or an hour or so on a step machine - then get the kids to school and spend the whole day sunbathing in the garden (summertime)

They also used to talk very loudly - I don't think they knew it but they just talked loudly - not shouting as such but very loud. They had children and did apologise for them making noise but we never heard the kids - just the adults.

One day they said to me how good the houses were (we were semi detached in 2 1980's houses) and that the soundproofing was really good because they never heard a thing

The noise of practiceing is difficult - I know I can get engrossed in a few bars trying to get them gight for half an hour or more - the time flys for me but it must be awful to listen to.

I think it is reasonable to take some simple measures to reduce your noise - like the duvet or moving the piano - not least because thinking about the neighbours all the time will rreduce your enjoyment.

Can you remember where you purchased this from or any other details? I'm moving house soon, not from choice, and I know from past moves, that the sight of my baby grand being delivered usually puts a whole street into mass panic. I do everything polite that seems neighbourly and considerate, but theres no guarantees what the neighbours attitude will be like. And any reduction in noise can only be a good thing before a problem could start. And if my current neighbours were reading.....I wish I could take them with me too!

Hear Hear!!!!! SBOHA totally with this.



But the law is enforced by the police and what they say is totally different. As I said above we had some horriffic experiences with our previous neighbours but according to "the Law" (in the form of the police) nothing could be done as "the noise was not excessive!!!! (I beg to differ on this one) and not outside "reasonable hours" i.e 7am to 11 pm" They said that although they symapthised they couldn't do anything. All we could do was log times and lengths of incidents over time but not to expect anything.

Therefore, I fail to see how anyone complaining about a neighbour practising or branding that "unreasonable" has a leg to stand on. I know from experience that neighbour disputes can be very difficult and upsetting but in my mind its the OPs neighbours who are being unreasonable not the OP!! However, communicating and compromising with the neighbours might actually work to best advantage for all concerned.

Excessive noise should be reported to the environmental health department of the local council, not the police. This is the correct procedure. If the complaint is in writing they have to act. If the situation is bad they put a measuring device in place for a week to measure the decibels. They take a more lenient view between the hours of 7am and 11pm, but very loud noise could still end in a legal action. On the other hand noise from a piano is probably not excessive.

My friend must be the neighbour from ######! When she moved in to her present house, she informed the neighbours that of her 4 children, two played the bagpipes and one the trumpet! The response was, 'oh well, I guess we tortued our neighbours when our children were young!'

Violinma






If the noise is music and only at "a reasonable hour" - which actually means from 7am to 11pm (not that I would personally call those extremes reasonable...) I really think a bit of give and take and mutual tolerance is really what's necessary.

[/quote]

In a word, No!

Sadly, the law in this county entitles householders to a 'peaceful existence', which is reasonable enough, but this is open to whatever interpretation anyone cares to apply to it.

There are regular stories in the papers of people (usually townies) who move to a village and then complain about the smell of farm animals or church bells. We have had similar incidents in our own village over the past few years:


We had a similar problem at a Community Association Hall (a 300 year old former Rectory) nearby, which has been used for social purposes for well over 30 years. In this case the new residents complained about choir practices on Fridays nights and the noise of chairs being moved.

Whilst I accept the right to a peaceful existence, surely there should be some obligation to make reasonable enquiries before moving into a new property?


SB
[/quote]

And within reasonable times what about the right to learn to play an instrument?
If we are to restrict the right to practice an instrument (during reasonable hours ) then lets equally restrict the right to practice ANY hobby/ pastime.
Knitting only allowed for half an hour at a time on 3 days a week?
No sketching or painting at weekends?

Ok.. so an instrument does make some 'noise' and 'practice' isn't a concert but there are plenty of other noises that are allowed with less complaint and learning an instrument is surely a more than worthwhile activity.
[/quote]

Hear Hear!!!!! SBOHA totally with this.

[quote]I don't dissagree with you, but that is what the Law says at present. Unfortunately, there will always be those who intepret these things to their own advantage, and [insert word of choice] anyone else.

SB
[/quote]

But the law is enforced by the police and what they say is totally different. As I said above we had some horriffic experiences with our previous neighbours but according to "the Law" (in the form of the police) nothing could be done as "the noise was not excessive!!!! (I beg to differ on this one) and not outside "reasonable hours" i.e 7am to 11 pm" They said that although they symapthised they couldn't do anything. All we could do was log times and lengths of incidents over time but not to expect anything.

Therefore, I fail to see how anyone complaining about a neighbour practising or branding that "unreasonable" has a leg to stand on. I know from experience that neighbour disputes can be very difficult and upsetting but in my mind its the OPs neighbours who are being unreasonable not the OP!! However, communicating and compromising with the neighbours might actually work to best advantage for all concerned.
[/quote]

there are plenty of other noises that are allowed with less complaint


I could make you a list ... !

I agree! In the village where my parents live some people bought a house which overlooks the cricket pitch - and then complained because there were cricket matches on it.

How silly!!!

Some people need to get a life...

Personally, Id say something to the effect of 'up yours', but thats just me. Whats the worst that could happen, it seems unlikely it would get beyond them complaining to you.

Diplomacy not your strong point, then, h_c?

My neighbours have told me they turn their TV down and move their chairs to the other end of the room (closer to my piano!) when i'm practicing - so they can listen.

I go in the garden and they'll say "what was that piece you were playing yesterday? It was lovely..." or they'll say "can you play us some ...... ? "

I'm teaching now, and very aware that my pupils aren't always as "tuneful" as me (I teach/play violin too) but they still haven't complained. In fact, their response to the increasing numbers of cars turning up outside my house, and increasing hours of piano "noise" was "it's lovely that you're involved with introducing people to the world of music..."

I love my neighbours

"but piano practice is non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned. "

This might be part of the difficulty. I wouldn't for one second suggest stopping practice, but have you told your neighbours at what times it's likely to happen and for how long?

Noise is an increasing urban nuisance and one of the major aspects of its nuisance "value" is that those subject to it feel powerless to do anything about it. Specifically, at relatively low levels (i.e. you're not doing sheet metal work in your kitchen), it's the fact that they don't know when it's going to start and, worse, don't know when it's going to stop that creates most of the psychological "pressure". You may well find that if your neighbours are informed as to schedule/duration you'll be able to come to an agreement with them.

.