I've been having some problems playing lately... i have to clamp my violin with my shoulder and chin and i get such a bad shoulder ache i have to keep stopping all the time and can hardly make it to the end of a piece. My violin feels really unstable and is wobbling everywhere with vibrato/shifts etc... it never used to do this, not even when i was first learning vibrato. As a result of clinging onto my violin i then get a thumb ache! >_< It's so uncomfortable and sometimes even painful to play that i don't really want to practise...
I've tried literally pretty much every shoulder rest there is (bon musica, all the kuns, all the wolfs, resonans, etc.) and i have a maple mach one... i've tried making it higher, moving it around etc... nothing helps.
A long time ago my teacher said that we may have to look into getting me a new chin rest but since then she hasn't mentioned it. My teacher's violin feels soo comfortable - it feels like it actually fits between my chin and shoulder rather than me having to squish up around it to hold it like i do with mine.
I've tried a violin with a central chinrest but that was even worse!
Would a higher chinrest be an option?
I know pain is always a bad sign so that's why i'm looking into it straight away but i don't really know where to start



I was thinking of trying this http://www.thestringzone.co.uk/categories/...bony-or-boxwood which looks thicker and more shaped... as mine is like this http://www.vivaceviolin.com/scp/Accessorie...olinBoxwood.jpg which is very thin and flat etc...


Edit: Just to explain things more simply... if i actually relax my shoulder, my violin comes nooowhere near my chin!

Hi Ffliwt - the right set up is so important, so perhaps a higher chinrest is the way forward.

How much space is there between your collarbone and your jaw when you hold your head normally? That's the space you have to fill - then (according to my musical physiotherapist friend) you should always build from the top of the violin first - bigger chinrest rather than shoulder rest. She recommends leaving the shoulder rest until it's absolutely necessary because a high chinrest hasn't done the trick - but for that to be the case, you'd need a neck like giraffe!

If you absolutely want to keep using your shoulder rest (and I'd question whether it's necessary as the symptoms you're describing were the exact same ones I had until I learned to play without one on my friend's recommendation) - then set it as low as possible and build up with the chinrest to fill the space between the collarbone and jaw - your bow arm will thank you for it in the long run too!

Good luck!

Thanks for the help
There is quite a big gap between my neck and shoulder... *looks in mirror* quite a big gap indeed o_O I'm a giraffe! Seriously though it looks a lot bigger space than any violin could fill Which is weird considering i'm an extremely small person... haha

I'm looking all over the internet but can't find any high chinrests/can't tell which are 'high' Any reccomendations?

Hi ffliwt

I'm not really qualified to help here but I thought you might be interested that my 'new' viola came with a chinrest like the second link you have up there... and it was too high for me! I had to take it off and put on a smaller (violin) one - with the viola I had the opposite problem from you where my viola was too big. So maybe that shape is 'higher' than some.. don't know if that will help

Is there anywhere you can try out different chinrests? Also I played my teacher's viola tonight and she had a sort of leather pad on her chinrest which really helped 'grip' it.

I have seen those chinrest grip things and was tempted to try one, maybe i'll try that first
I'll see what kind of shoulder rest my teacher has... it's so comfortable! I have a feeling it's the one i put the first link to, as it feels much thicker and more 'fitting'


Just realised you said the 2nd link was higher - the 2nd link is what i already have >_< But mine is very low and flat. My teacher always used to tell me to stop playing my violin with the chin rest over my cheek But it doesn't fit under my chin!

Ffliwt, don't be defeated by the chinrest question. Keep trying different ones until you find one that works. And don't settle for anything other than finding the right one - if you're having to grip the violin then you are storing up a load of neck and shoulder problems for later on....I found that out the hard way when I hurt myself after my grade 1 violin exam

It took me three different chinrests to find the right one for my instrument, and two different shoulder rests. But the result is something I can hold comfortably without hurting my neck.


Best of luck in your search.

Watch Oistrakh playing. Often his chin has no contact at all with the violin. If you are well-balanced then you should be able to do the same. To me, it sounds like your problem is more that you haven't developed a good balance and posture, rather than needing a higher chin-rest. Developing the balance is very difficult at first, but once you understand the physics of it becomes so simple and obvious. You should focus your energy on sorting this out first (without a shoulder rest, and with any chin-rest - the point is to become independent of them). Most violinists don't ever figure this out, as a shoulder-rest allows them not to. But then, most violinists complain of discomfort when playing. I certainly had huge back, neck and jaw discomfort until I figured out that relying on a shoulder-rest and chin-rest was my problem - now I use just a small pad and medium height chin-rest and have no discomfort at all. I'm not criticising you at all, but it's something that is worth considering since you've clearly got a good understanding of posture and have figured out your problem.

Once you have figured this balance, then you can work out where you need the extra support for things like downward shifts, vibrato, LH pizz. This is NOT "filling in the gap" - only players who fail to understand the correct way to balance the violin and the real role of the left hand feel the need to fill in all the space. You will need to find a combination of above (chin-rest) and below (shoulder-rest/pad/nothing) support to feel comfortable, stable, but still very free and able to move your head anywhere while playing. You definitely need to go and try out dozens of combinations of the two before buying, rather than just picking something online. (Btw, centre-mounted chin-rests sound much better than side-mounted.)


Frankly, at the moment I expect a high chin-rest would make no difference to you "gripping" the violin with your jaw, you would just be gripping at a more normal-feeling angle, which is easier to ignore. That's no good. What is good, is learning to eliminate the grip completely.

Interesting........ I had the one in the second picture, but ever since I 'switched' to the 1st picture because of a new violin, I've been getting jaw pain and arm tires easily. lol But then I went back to my rental with the 2nd picture chinrest and realized I was holding it wrong anyways, I used to put my chin on the chinrest (i.e. turn my head to place the actual chin on rest) but now I place my jaw onto the chinrest and I gues that's why I'm getting jaw pain. The new chinrest fits more comfortably to my 'jaw' shape but requires me to clamp harder than I need to than if i just used my chin. I may be doing this all wrong, I am a beginner.

Anyways, everyone is different, so you might just be the opposite of me lol it may work out well for you

My daughter had similar problems. We tried a lot of things, but the most effective was going to a helpful violin shop, with an appointment, and who stocked lots of chin rests and shoulder rests. We tried them in various combinations, with the help of the knowlegable staff, until we got a setup that worked.

We went to Bristol Violins, where one of the staff members was extremely helpful. I am sure other shops might also be helpful.

We spent about two hours trying to get the right combination, and haven't looked back since. The solution incidentally was a very cheap and simple shoulder rest, which somehow just worked best.

Immediately we got this right, the shoulder and neck pain which had been bedevilling her enjoyment of the instrument vanished.

Hi

I use a Teka and love it to bits as it is the right shape for me and quite tall, I'll be happy to measure it for you.

In that case can't you use the same chin and shoulder rest as your teacher?

I have a drawer full of chin and shoulder rests but eventually I found a set-up that is completely comfortable.

Ffliwt, the point isn't the space between your jaw and shoulder - but the space between your jaw and collar bone - the violin shouldn't be on your shoulder at all. If you put it there, the space becomes huge, effectively and you find people using shoulder rests on the highest position, tilting the instrument horribly to one side - all kinds of odd things to try to bring the violin back to where it would have been all the time if they'd just put it on their collarbone.

I agree with everything that Bohemian has said. I think she ditched her shoulder rest too and found it very beneficial - as did I and almost everyone of my friend's patients (physio woman specialising in musicians) - the shoulder rest is a cheats way to avoid having to learn how to hold the instrument properly and the majority of people don't need one.

The problem is that people are told to buy them as standard, often by misinformed teachers or people working in large instrument shops. It's not part of the instrument!

The crux of it all is that your set up needs to work for you, so work on learning to hold the violin correctly and then revisit the problem once you can do that.

Allan

How does this all stack up with the fact that many extremely fine players use shoulder rests, and many eminent teachers are happy for their students to use them?

As with anything - the silent majority are happy with what they have and how it works for them, and I will openly declare my hand that I am one of those who has been playing happily and very well balanced with a shoulder rest and chinrest for more years than I would care to admit to. I was extremely lucky to have a very posture-aware teacher long ago, when these sort of issues were less widely considered than they are now.

However, not everyone is built to the same proportions so it is right to try without a shoulder rest or even chinrest as part of the overall spectrum of finding the best setup for a particular individual. With any setup the key is balance - if your body and instrument are in the right place for you then there should be no tension across the back, shoulder, neck, jaw, or anywhere so that your body is completely relaxed to be able to play the instrument freely.

Many fine players play with pain, or play with a compromising set up - I think it's safe to say that they manage to play so well in spite of, rather than because of the set up in most cases. Of course, some people need shoulder rests, but we can clearly see a trend - most soloists use them now, most soloists didn't twenty or thirty years ago. The fact that they are generally given as part of the 'right' way to play is a relatively recent thing.

Bohemian, I think, used to use one and then learnt how to hold the instrument differently and has now realised it isn't necessary. The same thing happened to me. Just because a lot of people do something doesn't mean it's the right way - my physiotherapist friend maintains that the majority of problems in upper string players come from the shoulder rest and chin rest. She also maintains that only a very tiny proportion of people actually need a shoulder rest.

If we accept that each person is different (which is an often touted excuse for the arbitrary use of a shoulder rest), and that a shoulder rest may be necessary, then we also have to accept that the reverse is true and that a shoulder rest may equally not be necessary at all. The problem is that they are arbitrarily given to almost everyone on the understanding that everyone is different - the very action makes no sense, everyone is different so we'll give them all the same thing.

Each player should be taught the right way to use the instrument for them. It makes sense to begin without a shoulder rest as it's not part of the instrument, then to add a higher chin rest if necessary (to maintain optimum bowing angles and avoid lifting the right shoulder too much) then, and only if there is no othe solution, add a shoulder rest. That's a much more balanced approach to the 'everyone needs a different set up' thing, if you ask me.

Because if you read carefully what rosfrog and I have said, it's not that the shoulder rest is an evil concept which no-one should use. We have said that most people lack an understanding of how to hold the violin properly, and most people fail to find the sense of balance in holding the instrument, and that in a huge number of cases the use of a shoulder rest covers up this problem badly, allowing players to get away with not addressing the issue and developing a whole host of physical and technical problems as a result. These top teachers who encourage or allow use of a shoulder rest will obviously have covered the issue in depth before allowing their pupils to make an informed decision.
The decision isn't as simple as you make out - I doubt anyone is completely against the idea of a shoulder-rest, but people who are 100% for them are ill-informed...

I would also point out that until this decade, barely any soloists used a shoulder-rest, and more to the point, I would be willing to bet that ANY player who is "extremely fine" COULD play without one if necessary, because they understand the role of a shoulder rest and the simple fact is that most of the time, it should make no difference at all what set-up you've got.



Minstrel, did you consider why the silent majority so often have pain in playing and consequently tend not to be the best players (or even as good as they could be)? If you really have always had a perfect set-up with a shoulder rest, you're not part of that majority

Not using a shoulder rest really isn't an option for me. I did start without a shoulder rest but it was barely possible to play. I asked my teacher if i should just carry on trying to play without one (this was just after i started!) and she said no, that i needed one. She's not a fan of shoulder rests either and she went for yeeaaars without one before it became too painful and she 'gave in'.
I really can barely play whatsoever without a shoulder rest

Though i have tried what rosfrog has said, that it's supposed to be between your collarbone and chin, not your shoulder and chin. That way, my left shoulder is relaxed Huge improvement. I'm still looking into a more comfortable chinrest though!

And if you read carefully what I said (shouldn't be difficult as it was only one sentence) you will see that I wasn't making anything out. Merely asking a question. In fact, though, I do think Rosfrog was verging on the "shoulder rests are evil" position, describing players who use them as "cheats", and teachers who recommend them as "misinformed". No-one should feel apologetic for using a shoulder rest. Paganini didn't use a chinrest. Shall we chuck those away, too?

Look at it rather like getting a pair of jeans. Most people wear them but there are many different cuts and styles, the choice is very personal. Some people, quite rightly decide that jeans are not for them, while others persevere and look dreadful.

It really is a very personal thing and as an experienced professional performer and teacher I am only too well aware that avoiding tension in playing is a crucial step in preventing injury both for myself and the pupils who I teach and mentor. It's just such a shame that there are not more luthiers who are experienced in finding anatomically suitable setups.

Interestingly, I do vary my own setup depending on whether it is winter (thick woolies) or summer (thin tops). Theatre pits under stage lights in winter are another matter!!

I started off with a cloth, then moved on to a foam pad thing followed by various shoulder rests.
For me I find it far more comfortable to use a shoulder rest, it works for me so maybe I am 'cheating' and maybe my teacher is 'misinformed' and maybe I won't be as good as I have the potential to or be the 'best player' but honestly that doesn't really matter to me. I'm not in pain when I play, and I'm happy with my standard and how I'm progressing.
I don't think playing without a shoulder rest is better or worse, its just different and depends what works for you.

bohemian - If the people that are in pain are 'silent' how do you know that they're the 'majority?'

x

It is a very personal and variable thing.

When I started playing three or four years ago I felt that I could never get my shoulder rest high enough to "fill the gap" and stabilise the violin; over the years I have somehow found that my shoulder rest needs to be lower and lower for freedom and comfort, in fact occasionally I practice without one altogether (although generally I find that a little hard on the bones).

I don't know what to conclude from that except that it isn't to do with my physical type (which has not changed!) but with more experience and ease with the violin perhaps. Incidentally I have used a Wolf Secundo always.

N

A very comprehensive and detailed study was conducted at UK conservatoires last year (or possibly the year before). Many studies have been done and all produced similar results, namely that the majority have pain when playing, and the majority would benefit from a different set-up (usually higher chin-rest and lower shoulder-rest, but not always).


Of course it's a personal thing, but if you say that and fail to learn to hold the violin correctly, then that's completely meaningless...it's only personal once you understand the physical aspects of playing a violin properly. That takes a long time, and can only be achieved fully by playing without a shoulder rest for some time.

Nah, I don't think they're evil, but I do think a lot of teachers just recommend them as standard (in fact I know this to be true, following that Danish or Swedish study that was carried out into violin and viola set up - all the players had them as standard and only about two of them actually needed them at the end).

I also didn't describe those people that use them as cheats - I said that they allow us to cheat and not learn how to hold it properly. Most of us don't need one. Some of us do. Why then do we give them to almost everyone?

Nor do I believe that people should apologise for using one. I feel that if they use one when they don't actually need to, they're a bit daft, but that's their business.

My main point is that they are now seen as part of the norm, when they are not part of the norm or indeed part of the instrument. We don't usually need one to hold the instrument. Some people - a minority - are built in such a way that they do need one. Why is it, then, the case that the majority of players are taught to use them when only the minority of players need them. That's my primary issue with shoulder rests - the giving of a standard solution to everyone whilst simultaneously saying 'everyone is different' - it amounts to saying everyone is different so they should all have the same equipment.

For the record, I don't use a chinrest either

ok, but they're not silent then.

Gosh, that's an adult line of reasoning to take...they clearly WERE, until they were approached by these people carrying out a study, if they hadn't been silent then no doubt they would have recieved the necessary help from their professors, given that by the time they were questioned they were all in top music colleges and had been learning for many years. But w/e, if you're intent that you're right, then maybe it's better to just stop this discussion.

It's probably also relevant that when violins were first invented, human beings were generally much smaller than the average 21st century individual and, as such, the violin evolved, among other things, to fit comfortably into the space between the then-sized player's collarbone and jaw/chin. Little wonder also , approximately 500 years of human evolution later, that many players now find that they need something extra to fill the gap created by our generally now longer necks. The alternative would be either to tense and push the shoulder up or bend the spine at the neck to prevent the instrument from slipping - neither of which remotely advisable for anyone intending to play a musical instrument for a livelyhood without leading to serious muscular and/or skeletal problems. Obviously the situation is different for everyone depending on their individual size and anatomy, with much more 'petite' players probably needing little or nothing to fill the gap, while others of us need more.

It has struck me that that the relative size of an adult to a viola now is probably more like what the relative proportions of an adult to a violin used to be when the violin first came into it's current form. No wonder that , generally, fewer violists use shoulder rests than violinists.

Threads about shoulder rests on violin-related message boards always end in huffs and grumpiness. It's the law.

I think it's all so stupid If someone finds it more comfortable to play with a shoulder rest and finds it benefits their playing, cool, let them do it. Why shouldn't they? Everyone's always out to prove everyone wrong The whole 'you shouldn't use a shoulder rest' debate is stupid. If there's an actual reason for you to believe that a particular individual would benefit from not using one then it's ok but it's stupid to say it as a general point. Some people need them and some people don't, and that's it.





By the way that 'you' was you plural, not you as in aimed at anyone I think everyone here has made valid points I'm just talking about the ongoing argument in general.


Edit: though i do agree that you definately and obviously have to try playing without one before using one, and that nowadays people see it as a standard and necessary part of the instrument whereas it's not atal. How annoying is it when people buy violins from general music shops and they're like 'ok so you have the violin, the bow, the rosin, now all you need is a shoulder rest!'

Disco pants, that made me laugh out loud!

Ffliwt, just a litte asside - I don't actually have a problem with someone using a shoulder rest at all. My problem is with the fact that hardly anyone gets a choice from the outset - so when, several years later they try without, of course it feels odd and so they conclude that it's 'more comfortable with' and believe that they are making an informed choice, when in fact they probably aren't.

My problem is definitely with the arbitrary assignment of shoulder rests to everyone, not at all with people who choose to use them.

Allan

I wasn't directing it at you atal And i do totally agree, people are led to believe that a shoulder rest is necessary etc... I was one of those! >_< But i reguarly try to play without one and it just isn't physically possible I wish i didn't need one but i do =/ I can't even play viola without one!

Any luck on the chinrest front, then? Have you tried different ones?

Keep us updated!

None as of yet, i'm going to see which chinrest my teacher has in my lesson this week

On another subject, remember i was on about that violin my friend was offering to sell to me? I get to try it out this week

Ohhh, new instrument on the horizon - I'm very jealous now. I have a small addiction problem where fiddles are concerned.

It's not an addiction. I can stop when I want. Ahem.

I fully admit to my addiction
This will be my 3rd violin in 1 year and 10 months of playing Started on a stentor II, didn't intend on even having lessons... had lessons, loved it, then 6 months later bought my current, dear Fidelio i love him but he only cost £450 (great violin for the money mind) and as i'll be doing grade 8 in a few months (if all goes to plan) and next year going to music college (if all goes to plan) i'ma be needing a new one I'm very excited to try this one out! I really want a new one but i so love Fidelio, i was REALLY worried about if i'd be able to part with him But as this violin is quite a lot under my intended price range but my teacher says it is good enough, if i do like it and buy it, i won't need to sell Fidelio to afford it!
That also wasn't including my mega cheap experimental violin, my electric violin, and my viola
I'm going on now but isn't this weird... 2 years ago i had NO interest in violin and disliked it, who'd have known that 2 years later i'd have spent thousands of pounds on it and am absolutely in love/obsessed with it beyond words

I hear yah, sistah!

It's an addictive and expensive hobby