Hello all,

It seems every time I get a call for a new student it is inevitably for a 5 or 6 year old beginner. For a while I took it on the chin and seeing a lot of them progress and do exams after couple of years has been rewarding.

Since then I've started working as a peri at a secondary school and have been getting advanced students. I must admit it's much easier and more interesting for me. Starting off a 5 year old getting a bit tired, and as a competent pianist I can't help but feel slightly under-appreciated when I'm used to playing the Liszt B minor sonata and teaching twinkle twinkle in the afternoons.

Is this the rite of passage every teacher must go through in order to earn a decent living? I'm sure a lot of you find young beginners very rewarding and I do too but sometimes I wonder if I should just forget about making a living and teach only those who are more advanced and older. I didn't start teaching because I'm interested in kids, I'm interested in music. Some parents don't seem to understand this and think I'm teaching because I like children and this has really bothered me lately.

Sorry if this seems unreasonable, I do appreciate the income it brings and the flexibility but I know my dream was always to be a great pianist not a great baby sitter....

What could be better than starting with a clean slate, a 6 year old that has no prior misconceptions about music, piano, posture or technique? Every once in a while, you'll get a really talented one, who will surprise you, too. Then you can say "I was his first teacher..." I teach 9-11 year olds, and I must say they are much nicer than teenagers.... heaven help me, my son is only 3 years away from becoming a teenager himself!! Arrgghhh...

Burl

My youngest pupils at the moment are about 7 or 8 and I get on quite well with them. I've got some students who started at this age and are now 10 and 11, it's nice to see them grow up and become promising players. On the other hand I also teach adults and this has it's advantages too. You might want to think about where you are advertising and where you should advertise to reach older students.

I designed a simple flyer on the PC and printed them at home and delivered them in a nice area (with lots of bungalows) quite close to where I live. As a result I've got a handful of dedicated adult pupils, some of whom are pensioners. They tend to be people who have always fancied the idea of music lessons, but haven't ever got around to doing anything about it. Some don't have internet access and some don't know where else to look. So if I would recommend leafleting, but bear in mind that my current hit rate is about 1 student for every 300 or so flyers delivered. The way I see it it's good excercise and the students are good quality.

As for only teaching students who are advanced, I think you might have to wait until you have a waiting list and are in a position to audition new students. I couldn't afford to only take advanced students at the moment, but I'm hoping that as my reputation grows one day I might have a waiting list and be able to pick and choose.

What you're saying doesn't sound unreasonable at all, most teachers have their own preferences about the ages and abilities they work with, I suppose your dilema is how to find your ideal students. On the playing side, have you considered advertising your services as an accompanist? It wouldn't take long to ring some local instrumental teachers and ask if they need accompanists for their pupils.

As a teacher (not of music) I think it's perfectly normal to have a preference for particular age groups and particular levels. Although how you go about getting only what you want in your teaching practice I don't know unless piano teachers are in short suppy where you live. Where I was growing-up there were not many piano teachers around, most of them refused to take beginners and still had waiting lists.

As a parent I would rather the teacher said they didn't like young beginners than take the child on anyway. My daughter currently has a piano teacher (allocated by the music school) who is in her fifties and is clearly tired of repeating the same things and hearing the same beginners' pieces and she can't be bothered to explain in a way that is understandable to a primary-age child. I am worried that she will put my daughter off the piano completely.

Teaching very young kids (ie 5 -6 year olds) does need a different approach to the older ones, and I think you need to be particularly interested in this age group to enjoy it and be successful at it. Personally, I find it hard to cope with very young beginners and have decided that I will have a minimum age of 7 years. I have made exceptions for 2 younger siblings of current students, and it didn't work out well. I know I'm not so good with that age-group and I am honest with parents and say so. Perhaps you could re-kindle your enthusiasm by investing in some different tutor books aimed specifically at young kids. Or - just don't take any more on.

It seems that most students arrive by word-of-mouth recommendations to friends - hence, what you have, you tend to get more of. If you are known to teach 5 year olds, more will come to you.. If you are going to advertise, be specific about the type of learner you are interested in eg adult beginners, intermediate - advanced students, or whatever.

I had almost the opposite experience. Until I began working in the school near me a couple of years ago I had taught very few beginners, and only one young one at that. My typical new private pupil was a 12-year-old who had had school lessons for a couple of years.

I very much enjoy teaching juniors, and I find those I've started from scratch very rewarding. I use several different books depending on their age and taste, and find that, because they are all different, each pupil brings something new to the material.

I don't teach any younger than Year 3, though, and I'm not sure I'd enjoy teaching piano to a procession of little ones; the demands of the flute are different.

Of course we all have our preferences as to the age groups we prefer to teach (mine is currently 4-64) - but I'm just slightly concerned that you see teaching young/beginner students as 'baby-sitting'...it is actually the most crucial age and stage.

How insensitive of parents to think you might like children because you're a teacher, Beagle!
Actually, I'd always assumed that a teacher would stick to teaching adults if they didn't like children, but obviously this is not the case for you.

The number of would-be great pianists who have ended up as teachers is legion. In this area, those with very high skills specialise in grade 7 up to diploma teaching, and preparing students for conservatoires. It would seem sensible for you to do likewise. Young children benefit from enthusiastic teachers who relate well to that age group.

True!
I really young beginners - on the whole (some are easier to deal with than others) - but I do find them exhausting when I have more than two in a row. On the other hand, it can also be very intensive to have a few advanced students in a row, so I try to mix them up as much as I can. Could you get some of your school pupils to come to you for private lessons instead?

As a parent I absolutely agree with Cyrilla. First teachers are incredibly important. I have been extremely luck with my children's.

On two occasions I apologised to my children's first teachers saying something like "Oh dear, this must be so unrewarding for you - teaching yet another complete beginner when you must prefer to have more advanced students" and both teachers said how they much enjoyed teaching complete beginners, because they felt a responsibility to get them started properly in what they hoped would be a life-long love of the instrument/music, and also because the beginners had no bad habits to correct, or inflated views of how good they were. I think that is true of beginners at any age, of course, not just young children.

If you see teaching music to little ones as 'babysitting' then you shouldn't be doing it. Children of this age are far too important to be taught by people who don't primarily have their best interests at heart, both musically and pyschologically. If you see yourself as performer and teacher of adults then that's what you should be focussing on, even though you need the money you're getting from your younger students. Either that or take a course in child development to raise your awareness of the needs of this particular age group!

I don't have a favourite age-group myself, and I do actually very much enjoy the variety of responses and abilities in my varied bunch of pupils (currently aged 6 to 80 - I take them from about 5, but don't have any that young just at the moment) - for me, the different tactics I need to use from pupil to pupil make the lessons much more interesting than they might be if everyone was at the same sort of level.

I must say that I feel a great sense of pride in, and a special attachment to, those pupils I have had since they were very young and who stayed with me right until they left for university - some of them are nearing 30 now and are gratifyingly active musically, and I feel really privileged to have been the main influence in their musical education for so many years.

I love teaching young beginners and getting them started on their musical adventure. One of my best moments recently was when the mother of a just-6 year old, who started with me when she was still 4, told me how her daughter was now doing her theory on her own, and loving it, and telling her teacher at school how she now had 'proper piano lessons'!

I think it's important to be honest with yourself. It's not a question of criticism but simply to admit what you're good at/enjoy/find rewarding and what you don't.

I have a friend who won't accept children under 10 and I think that's fine.

I frankly do not particularly enjoy teaching adults (I have 3 who are working out very well but I've turned a lot away). Being honest, this is because I'm rather 'bouncy-bunny-and-shiny-stickers' in style, it works very well with kids but is not suited to everyone.

Teaching 6 year-olds is very demanding, quite different from 10 year-olds, say. Teaching beginners is not at all the same as more advanced students, no matter what the age.

Specialise in what you like and are good at. You'll lose a bit of income at first but, if you're good at what you do, word will get out and you'll pick up more advanced students to make up for it.

I think at this age it's a huge adventure, and I love being a part of that - much as Jenny described. But if you don't see it that way, it's not really fair to take pupils on as 'make-weights'.

Jo, that's a lovely testimony to your pupils!

It might be worth considering that just because this age group isn't Beagle's favourite to teach, it doesn't mean he's not doing a good job of it. We all have our 'least favourite' type of pupil, but it isn't really a problem unless the number of that type of pupil becomes disproportionate. Teaching adults is not my most preferred thing, but I as my three adult pupils come on three different days I don't dread them coming, and I'm able to do my best for them without the negative feelings that I might have if I had a whole string of adult pupil in a row.

My least favourite group at the moment is teenagers!!

I think I should make it clear I'm actually very good with children and that's why I keep on getting recommended. Also, I like children but not in a 'nursery teacher' way. I don't put on funny voices and act bouncy, although I try to make it fun and varied. I also laugh a lot with the children, so it's not as if I'm allergic to them!

Maybe it's more the perception parents have of me that I have trouble with. Yesterday I got a call from a mother with two children aged 4 and 6. She asked me about other students so I said I 'teach a variety, from 4 to teenagers and adults', and she exclaimed in surprise 'you teach older students too?!!

Another mother really wants me to go on a holiday with them to 'bond with the children', which is all nice and well but to me it sounds like 'baby-sitter'. She also gets the children to do drawings of me and really tries to incorporate me into the childrens' lives which is sweet but I don't want to become a musical nanny.

I have a masters degree , and while I was at uni was the 'star' performer and got invited year after year to do concertos and recitals. I'm in my early 30s and married so wanted a more stable life, I know this happens all too often, the once performer resigned to teaching, but I actullay do enjoy teaching just that I'm not sure if my talents are put to full use by teaching 5 year olds.

I will not usually teach girls under 7 and boys under 8 years old. It is not that I think they should not play the piano, or that they cannot, simply that I do not enjoy teaching them, as a rule.

I find the younger children have hand-to-eye coordination difficulties that start to disappear shortly after the relevant birthday. I found in the past that most 5 year old beginners achieved little more progress in three years than a 7 year old starter in one year.

I will take them under exceptional circumstances - parents with musical knowledge and a willingness to help being a huge factor here. When persuaded to try a younger child, I simply resign myself to fairly slow progress and enjoy my time with the child.

Personally I take them at 8 - which is the age I started formal lessons and it never held me back in any way.

This would disturb me. Not everyone who is good with teaching kids actually prefers to do so, it's quite normal to like older and/or more advanced pupils.

Anyway, I think one of the problems is that given that most people give up learning at G3 level, or G5 level, it might be quite difficult to specialise in more advanced students. Keen adults might be better because they aren't likely to give up to go to university or whatever so you've got more years for them to be advanced in.



Might be part of the whole *older people don't learn musical instruments* myth that some people choose to believe.

If it wasn't worth teaching under 7s then there wouldn't be all these prodigies who started between 2 and 6! I think with these very young children you need a very different method involving lots of singing and playing by ear - they have a different learning style altogether. If you get it right you can have amazing success with this age group but the method has to be perfect for their age-group, which is where Suzuki comes in.

That's a fair point, but it doesn't mean that teaching these different methods will be everyone's forte! And some actually do manage pretty well with conventional teaching methods when they're 5; I have an unstoppable 7-year-old Grade 3 pupil who's an example - having got distinctions all the way and played lots of other repertoire as well as exam pieces. What I tell parents of younger potential pupils is that I teach using conventional methods, which may not be suitable for a child so young, but that I'll give it a go if I have a space and if that's what they want. If everyone without the where-with-all to teach Suzuki and the like to young children was to turn them away, then we'd never get the best from the type of child I've described above - as there are simply not enough teachers around who do specialise in alternative methods. I think as long as we are honest with parents about what we do and what else is available, we shouldn't beat ourselves up about not being able to turn our hands to absolutely anything.

I could not agree more with your first sentence.

Thing is, in a long career I have yet to teach a prodigy. I have taught some pretty brilliant ones, two of whom developed into better pianists than I am, but no prodigy. By contrast, I have taught a shed-load of struggling under-7's who struggled dreadfully until they were a little older. They include one of the two who are now better than I am, but who started at age 5 and made slow progress until his brain developed more.

There is also the potential harm that can be done. Children starting the piano before they have the capability to make reasonable progress can become unhappy with playing it and stop, possibly never to return. This is another one of the reasons I do not take the under 7's.

I always tell parents that there are teachers around who are very good with tots, and if they can find one then they do so with my blessing. At times in the past, I have even been able to supply contact details. I just do not want to teach them myself.

I find that it's not so much ages and abilities as character, which often affects the way my teaching relationship develops with a particular student. So I have a young 7-year-old whom I really enjoy teaching, and an adult beginner whose lessons I look forward to. But the converse is also true, with a young beginner who I don't really enjoy teaching, and an adult whose lessons I do not look forward to at all. But regardless of age or ability, every student gets the best that I can give them.

Edit: I also prefer teaching students who themselves have enthusiasm for what they are learning (but then, who doesn't?!)

I think that's a wee bit of a generalisation! Personally I teach a lot of very interesting, friendly and intelligent teenagers and quite a few rather irritating 9-year-olds...


Eeek!

As a rule I generally don't teach children under the age of 8 - I've found, like others on here, that a pupil who starts at 5 makes the same progress over the next 4 years as an 8 year old does in a year, so the older child easily catches up....... having said that, I have taught the odd child (no, the child wasn't actually odd, you know what I mean!!! ) from 6 but the progress hasn't been stunning........

I agree that it takes a special kind of teacher to relate to that age group. It may well be that by the time cd junior reaches that age, I feel much more at ease with that age group and may start teaching younger children but on the other hand, by the time he reaches 5 he'll be starting school so I'll be cutting back my teaching once again!!!

Hi, I've recently taken on a 5 year old girl, very bright little girl. Fast learning too, she surprises me week to week! In the first week I showed her where middle C was and she started pointing to D, E, F and G after seeing the picture on the wall (which I hadn't shown her!). I really enjoy teaching her, and hopefully she enjoys her lessons. I'm learning a lot from her as well, as I also have a 7 (who just turned 8) year old pupil and the difference in the way I teach them is huge.

I think the answer is, if you don't want to teach that person then don't. Having said that I have a particular pupil who I find hard to relate to which makes the lessons a little difficult but there is progress being made so I'm persevering.

My pupils sometimes draw pictures of me playing too, am I the only one who loves this? I find it really sweet!

xx

My first teacher training qualification was as an infant teacher. I have taught all ages, including adults and senior adults but I have always remained very thankful that I started to learn about teaching at the point where the very young start learning.

I maintain that the infant school teacher has a far more difficult job than the university lecturer. I'm not talking about the difficulty of acquiring the knowledge needed by a professor. I'm talking about the skills needed to get pupils to learn. It is not terribly difficult if you know your subject and enthuse about it to hold the attention of a lecture hall full of undergraduates. It is extremely difficult to occupy a class of young children in a constructive way so that they are all actually involved in a learning process and not just being baby sat.

I’m not entirely in agreement with the idea that a child who starts piano at 8 plus necessarily catches up quickly with what the four year old starter has done. It’s not quite like that because the musical experience one provides for a very young child is not the same as one provides for an older child.
The two things are quite different. I don’t think it is very relevant to compare speed of progress.

I like teaching very young children, juniors and teenagers but I don’t like teaching adults. I think everyone is entitled to their preference and I don’t think it wise to force oneself into teaching an age range with which one is uncomfortable.

I would just like to add that a number the greatest composers have written for young children and beginners. Some of them have actually found it a challenge to do so

I'm only saying that because of my experiences in teaching over the last nearly 20 years - whenever I have had younger and older beginners, the older ones invariably have progressed much faster in comparison. There are probably 5 year olds around who can progress much faster, but if so, I have never yet taught one...... although having said that, I have never been happy teaching that age either so I tend to avoid them anyway! I still think general music classes are better for that age, moving on to piano after a couple of years.......

On your last point..Kodály once said to young composer friends of his, 'You want to know if you will have an audience for your works in 20 years' time? Go and visit the kindergarten, for there is your audience.'



Hear, hear!!

I love teaching young children, and had the opposite experience to you starting with mostly adults and high school children. This year I have taken several young recorder players as young as 6, and it is much harder than the older people I teach. Keeping them interested both in the lesson and in the wider picture is such a challenge, but SO rewarding. I have to constantly develop ways of introducing concepts, break things down, communicate it to them, and reinforce. My Kodaly training obviously helps, though I don't follow this slavishly.

You could say I 'like children' but you have to to teach them successfully, and it is certainly NOT babysitting.

AT LAST - someone has the courage to say what I have wanted to say for AGES, but was frightened to in case I was branded selfish and pompous and whatever else the forummites would throw at me.

Beagle - I am with you on this. I know just how you feel. I, too , and grateful for the income it brings, but the last thing I want to do is to feel like a nursery teacher/baby sitter, colour in pictures, call crotchets CHARLIE and minims MOLLY and then have to show "teddy" how to play the tune as well!

I also have to suffer put on a brave face when teaching "keyboard" - children and adults - turning up to find that the instrument is little more than a TOY

I was lucky enough to be brought up on decent pianos and large pipe organs - classical and theatre!

OMG - don't I put myself on a pedestal - (stands by for flying flack)

I would much rather someone else - younger and prettier - dealt with the "littlies" and the very preliminary stages.

Just adding a line of defence here before the flack starts. Our subject is huge and our potential market is hugely varied, so there is no harm whatsoever in us teachers deciding on our preferred target market, sticking to it as much as possible, but keeping bread on the table by diversifying a little where necessary. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to afford to do what we enjoy most. We are quite a lucky bunch to be able to earn money from something we love so much, but once in a while we do have to do what a large part of the population does, which is spend some time on a less preferred activity to avoid having to change career entirely.

Beagle and diapason - I'm with you on this!

Although, somewhere down the line, I will probably start taking on young beginners again, I enjoy nowadays being able to concentrate on interpretation rather than basic technique.

No problem with taking on advanced players - as long as the basic building blocks are really in place, and you can work properly at that level.

What I personally don't much enjoy is teaching a supposedly advanced player - who has holes in basic technique, who has scraped through a load of earlier exams in too short a time, who hasn't really learnt how to practise - etc etc.

part of my teaching practice includes around 20 under 9 year olds. I have built a reputation as being a teacher for young children. I actually really enjoy teaching this age group as I am starting with a clean slate and it is lovely to see them develop into happy young musicians. I love the friendship that develops over the years with them and the parents and to see them grow up.

One such girl i took on at age 7 some years ago is now taking grade 8 this year at the age of 15. I organise concerts for them, produce newsletters, cover them in stickers every week and at present i would say i only have one or maybe two in this age group who struggle with practising.

I have found singing in the lesson very appreciated by them, using percussion instruments for rhythm games, delegating them to producing their own set of flash cards as the weeks progress and of course playing duets with them, no matter how simple their part may be.

Phew! I'm glad Beagle and I are not alone

I have to admit that this year has not been easy - not for LACK of pupils, in fact, I'm as busy as I want to be - but a current certain percentage of my pupils do not make me get up and out willingly to work. Often feel quite glum

The remainder of this week - starting in 30 mins is an unhappy mixture of "toy" keyboards, some elderly pupils who see me as a "health visitor" rather than a music teacher, an 8 year old drama queen and some "littlies" who will be armed with crayons and a cuddly toy that can play infinitely better than it's doting owner


Hi-ho, hi-ho, it's off to work I go................................! being truly thankful that I have work to go to, of course.

Yes! If a child can come to their instrument at 7 years old having done some Kodaly and Dalcroze, they will come forward in leaps and bound!



Excellently put Dulciana. We are indeed a very lucky bunch and sometimes have to take jobs that are less than ideal...just like everyone else!

Oh golly! The tea-and-sympathy brigade? Been there, done that, got the T-shirt....

Have a good day!

Consultants can't function properly without junior doctors and nurses, but at times they need to stay aware of what's required at the practical end of the line. A consultant who can't find a vein for a blood test won't be much use if his juniors are off sick that day! Maggie has a point about advanced players with gaps in their technical toolbox. I prefer advanced students, but I also prefer them to be the ones I've 'brought up' myself! So I stick with beginners and live in hope! And on the whole, I enjoy them. Although, like I said to somebody recently, I've been known to dance round the kitchen occasionally upon hearing that the odd one has decided to drop piano in favour of ju-jitsu...

Although I haven't been teaching that long, I have already found that teaching beginners it not my favourite thing to do - they don't challenge or excite me in the slightest. Whilst I find it somewhat rewarding and I appreciate that good teaching at the start of a student's career is vital to ensuring their progress as a musician, hence it could be seen as a privelledge (can't spell!) to take on this responsibility (which I whoelheartedly agree with), I simply do not find it stimulating to teach at this level.

I would never say that I won't take on a certain age, because they all have their merits and as someone said earlier, for me it is more to do with the character you are teaching rather than their age. But I am starting to prioritise taking on more advanced students over beginners.

Now I actually love children and I am very good with them - when I was younger, I used to be a teaching assistant in a specialist music primary school and always supported myself through my studies by working as an au-pair for a few families with children aged 1 - 5. I just enjoy working with children so much. BUT while it is very rewarding and fun to teach music to children in this type of environment, for me this doesn't translate to individual/formal piano lessons, as it is a different situation. Even with adults - I have always found that I relate better with children and teenagers on a professional level, so was apprehensive about teaching adults. I found that I get on with them quite well and I don't mind teaching them. But I still do not find it anymore stimulating than teaching child beginners.

For me it is quite clearly not the age that bothers me, but the level at which I am teaching them - I just prefer teaching piano at higher levels as I feel I am using more of myself, my knowledge, my skills, everything is more involved. I only at the moment have 1 student at advanced level, but I also have a couple of students aged 11 and 13 who are of grade 4 - 6 standard and they are currently some of my most rewarding students. They are eager, very quick and they are getting to that period where they are thirsty to learn more about the whys and hows of improving their technique and the quality of their playing, they also want to explore more repertoire. They are interested in learning more about the music and they understand more of what is going on in their playing.

So yes Diapason and Beagle - I completely understand where you are coming from!



I actually quite like teaching this type of student - it might sound odd, but I enjoy the challenge of improving their playing and I find it rewarding to help them become a better pianist and enable them to access more of their talent, which was being previously hindered. At times yes, there will be a few lessons of tedious going over and over things, but when I think about it, the students I most look forward to teaching include some of these "challenges" because the lessons are so interesting and involve drawing on psychology, physiology, anatomy, music history, technique studies ... It is wonderful also when they come back to you and are so excited because they are now able to do or play something that they had previously thought beyond their reach, but it was just an adjustment of technique or repairing a bad habit that allowed them this. These types of breakthroughs are very pleasing.

Diapason - I don't accept teaching on instruments like that! I'm happy to travel (but only really do this for children after school), but if they don't have a piano at home, then they have to come to the studio where I teach. If the student wasn't very advanced, I would probably make an exception for a good quality digital piano, but I haven't met any students who had these. I make sure all my students have access to some sort of decent piano/digital to practice on between lessons.

I must be such a trial to my violin teacher...

I know my violin teacher loves teaching little ones, so long as they behave and put the effort in! Anyway I think my teacher also enjoys teaching adults: certainly we have lots of good banter, but I think she must get tired of having to spend so long persuading me that I do not sound like a screeching cat, and that I am not incompetent and not the worst thing to happen to music since the invention of factory strings.

Actually we are probably both saying more or less the same thing because when I have very young beginners on piano they have either already done my nursery class for a year or two or I include a lot of general music activities in the piano lesson.

I also have the problem here that if you don't catch them young you very often don't catch them at all - but that is more to do with parents than teachers. They seem to want to enroll them in activities at a very young age and if I don't take them when they bring them along they will be lost to music.I have had pupils who started with me at four or five and left when they went to university. Gosh, I must be getting old!

Possibly to do with the French system? ie the long school day and the amount of homework in primary school.

Yes, very likely. I find here that early starters tend to stick but I don't get a lot of older juniors or early teenagers starting - except some who have been with me for class lessons in the junior school. I've had two ten year old beginners from the primary school this year but both were new to the school and had never done any class music before. One is doing piano the other treble recorder. I've also had an eleven year old who had done some piano with another teacher and then dropped it. She came to me because her friends are pupils of mine. The interesting thing is that I really had to rethink my beginner approach because these three were older than my usual beginners.

I get this too and think it's lovely - although I don't always recognise myself!!

I also love the fact that I often get hand-made cards at the end of the year, saying how much they love playing the piano.

Me too. Some of them are completely bonkers!

I have a few young beginners and I enjoy teaching them. I think that starting lessons at an early age is important, it is an opportunity for them to get good musical grounding which they can build on as they get older.

I know that the music is very simple and teaching it hours a day can be exhausting but... the way I think of it is that these children are musicians of the future and I want them to build musical knowledge at an early age as I did which for me, proved to be so valuable.