Does anyone have any experience of the crash courses in Grade 5 theory? Our local music shop offers one.

My 9y old daughter has been struggling with theory and managed to scrape through grade 2 last year but doesn't seem to be making much progress in her weekly 30 minutes. She doesn't find it easy (partly because she can't grasp the bass clef) and now it is hindering her grade 6 practical.

What's the best way of tackling this? Is a crash course the answer?

It may not be the total, ultimate, final, ONLY answer, but it is probably AN answer!

It would be ideal if kids were introduced to theory early and gradually, but that wasn't the case for my son, and several concentrated periods of effort have made a difference. It's taken him several "bursts" to really get the hang of it, and now that he is finally having regular theory lessons, that has made a huge difference.

A lot of stuff learned in bursts seems to be lost at first, but it does help the final learning "take", I think! He seemed to be forgetting and re-learning things for ages, but those bursts each helped.

How about a crash course followed up by doing a small but regular amount from a workbook every week after the course?

I dislike the whole idea of crash courses in theory, because they teach the child to pass an exam, rather than really understand what they are doing. Sometimes there are good reasons for doing this, especially older children, for whom time is an issue. However, for a 9 year old, I would have thought it more sensible to take things a bit more steadily and make sure that she is getting to grips with the theory properly. She is obviously doing well, having got to grade 6 level at that age. In which case, perhaps even more important for her to learn this stuff properly, rather than 'crashing' it.

Would a change of teacher for theory help? Or a change of materials. I particularly like the Ying Ying Ng books - very nice child friendly books, with clear explanations and very good tables of things like ornaments and information about instruments in the later grades. Available from Kensington Chimes music shop by mail order.
See Poco Studio books. PM me if you want to know more.

I was preparing to reply - but Sue said it for me. I think the bass clef can be tricky if it doesn't somehow link in with practical work.

Way back mumble years ago when I took Grade V theory, clarinet was my first and only instrument, so I had no need for bass clef at all. Suddenly having to become as familiar with bass as with treble, and overnight at that, was a steep learning curve. If I was in the same situation now, throwing alto and tenor clefs into the equation would probably finish me!

My way around it was to have one note from which I could work everything else out, and the first thing I did in the exam room was to write out a bass clef scale on the scrap paper provided and name them.

If it's going to take time to master the theory, use the time after Grade V practical to consolidate. Are there any weaker areas of technique? Why not take the time to play for fun, perhaps some duets or other ensemble work?

Is G5 practical musicanship (or G5 jazz if applicable) not a viable alternative if theory is that much of a problem?

I think Jazz is probably the most fun of the 3 options and may well have appeal to a 9 year old. Sorry I can't remember your daughter's instrument so it might not be an option. The good thing about Jazz is that you still need to play your instrument it's still developing playing.

It's not necessary to 'read' bass clef for a theory exam. What you do need is to understand how it works.
I've found that sometimes the real problem is that the student doesn't understand how the treble clef (or whatever clef their instrument uses) works and once this is sorted out then decoding other clefs is not a huge issue.
Just trying to remember all the notes can be a soul destroying task if you aren't using that clef on a regular basis.

It might also be that even a bright 9 year old is not ready to take on all the concepts at this level yet so going slowly would be better than cramming.

I struggled with theory as a child. I took Grade 5 practical aged 10 but I couldn't cope with Grade 5 Theory at that stage, so I just worked at my own pace, making sure I understood everything fully and never did Grade 6 practical. By the time I was ready to take Grade 5 Theory I was at Grade 7 standard. Crash courses are great as a revision tool, but it's important to understand thet theory properly in order to be able to aplpy it well. Learning an instrument is about more than collecting certificates. While your daughter is studying for Grade 5 theory, she can explore a wider range of repertoire than she might be able to if she was preparing for an exam.

Plus, if she's only Grade 2 theory standard at the moment, she will really struggle with a Grade 5 crash course, which could hurt her confidence and won't do her any good in the long run.

Thanks for all your comments. I think slowly and surely is the way to go. She is taught in a mixed ability group at the moment but I think some one to one lessons are the answer.

Interestingly when she took her grade 2, almost all the other people taking the exam (lots of people) were taking the grade 5. There was one girl doing grade 1 and 1 girl doing grade 8 but everyone else was doing grade 5. It seems as though theory is left aside until it becomes a necessity which is probably why the crash course is so well attended.

If you have a look at the stats here, you'll see that about 3 times as many people take G5 as G1. For every G8-er last year, there were over 74 G5-ers

Another vote for using a different board for practical exams, or switching to practical musicianship or jazz. At 9, struggling with theory is not a big deal, but forcing the issue probably will be. If she had just scraped through G4, or was say 14/15 then maybe a crash course would be appropriate, but there's too much to learn for a young-ish kid to make it worthwhile. Different lessons might be more helpful.

Of course one doesn't need to do exams in order to progress, there's no reason at all why she can't just work through relevant repertoire, studies, scales, aurals, etc without taking an exam. She'll probably get to G5 theory (or PM or jazz) by the time she's 12, at which point she might be ready to take G8. Certainly not a problem with doing that.

The thing is, you have to pay to take theory exams! Both my children did theory slowly and steadily along with practical piano, and did all the workbooks and some past papers, but they didn't take every possible exam. They did grade 3 just to see what an exam would be like, and then later they did grade 5.

You're right that many pupils do take a crash course in grade 5 theory, but it's such a waste, as they quickly forget most of it after the exam. I find it sad that teachers who wouldn't dream of just teaching the three necessary pieces for each practical grade are quite happy to let their students do this when it comes to theory.

I agree with other posters that your daughter shouldn't rush into grade 5 theory. Few 9 year olds would cope with a crash course, and it's better for her long-term education to learn theory thoroughly and at her own pace. My children were lucky that their piano teacher was a firm believer in doing the theory with the practice, so once they had taken grade 1 practical the lesson was extended by 10 minutes which were devoted to theory; they had a small theory homework each week. This worked very well indeed and meant that grade 5 theory was ready to be taken soon after grade 5 practical.

I go into a lot of the underlying and related theory of the music my pupils are learning, but there's still only time to do so much in a half-hour lesson.

Yes, you're right. This is why we were asked to pay for a 40 minute lesson after grade 1 practical, so that theory could be done properly. It was a good system, because there could also be some flexibility - coming up to a practical exam the theory might be put on hold and the time used for extra aural; at other times if there was a problem with a particular aspect of theory, practical time might be cut a bit to ensure better coverage of the theory topic. The theory was assimilated gradually and therefore stuck well.

I know some people get around this by taking theory classes, but then you get a lot of input all at once. I don't know how many teachers do a 40 minute lesson like this, but I'd recommend it. It meant my son was easily able to get distinction in grade 5 theory in year 8 with no need for cramming, while some of his friends had real problems passing it in year 10 after a crash course so that they could do grade 6 or 7 practical.

I don't think that a crash course would be the answer here as your daughter is only 9 and also is only grade 2. My two children and most of my pupils who want to study theory have done a grade such as 2 or 3 when they get to that level to experience taking a theory exam as it's usually different to anything they've done before.

Then we've gone on and completed all the books at a steady pace and done grade 5 when we've got there. If your daughter is ready for grade 6 practical and really wants to do an exam could she do a different board?

I misunderstood the original post and thought the 30 minutes referred to instrument lessons, where there was little time for theory as well. If your daughter already has group lessons in theory, then the crash course would only be useful if she herself were highly motivated to take it. If she is doing theory but not yet motivated by it, then the time may not be ripe for *more* theory.

It sounds to me like your daughter needs more time to understand theory at grade 5 level. If she's finding bass clef tricky, remember she also has to deal with alto & tenor clefs for grade 5, as well as many more difficult concepts. It might be that she needs more time to develop - nine is very young to be tackling grade 5, after all. As others have said, if she's musically talented, it's worth taking the time to learn it properly - she will need this knowledge for the rest of her musical life.

I like to teach my pupils the theory as far as possible alongside the practical, although it can be quite hard to fit it in. Some of them do go to separate classes. But they nearly always work through all the grade workbooks, although most only take the exam for grade 5.

Apologies for posting this on an AB forum, however could your daughter not simply do the Trinity exam instead if it is graded exams that she is after? The violin material is very interesting to play and their approach to scales is, to my mind at least, much more musical and far less tedious than the AB requirements - especially for the higher grades. Another advantage is that she will have the benefit of being heard by an examiner who is a string specialist.

Exams are certainly not the be all and end all although I can appreciate that many pupils work well towards those sort of specific targets. However I think it is important that you do not rush the theory 'just for the sake of getting it out of the way' as it crucially underpins a lot of the higher grade aural and general musical understanding. I still expect pupils to learn, understand and pass grade 5 theory at a convenient point but I would not hold back a child who is forging ahead practically just in order to collect a piece of paper before doing another exam.

I have been entering an increasing number of pupils for Trinity exams for many reasons and have been pleased with the repertoire, marking and comments. Perhaps this is something that you could look into with your daughter's teacher

Is there anyway that you could arrange a few individual theory lessons?
My daughter started learning theory with her piano teacher, but her practical ability moved on much quicker, so the 10 extra minutes per lesson were not enough. The piano teacher came from time to time, once a week I think in the holidays and taught theory, leaving past papers to be done in the meantime. Daughter was young and managed to scrape a pass. Her piano teacher, who is absolutely wonderful continues to teach her aural and theory, but through the pieces she is learning as they go along, so hopefully she won't have forgotten all of it!
Could you arrange some targeted private lessons rather than an intensive crash course?
Violinma

While I agree with the many posters that the best thing is to learn theory slowly and steadily alongside the practical, the reality is that for most parents the first we hear about it is after the child has passed grade 5 practical and there's suddenly this big barrier in the way.

In our case that point was reached at the start of school year 6. With the preparation for the 11+ (we still do it in Lincs) and then the study for KS2, all thoughts of study for music theory went away. But it's been equally hard to fit in during the first year of senior school, as there's no much else to take in.

So my advice for what it's worth, is to try very hard to get through it at age 9 if possible. I think the learning curve would be about the same at 9 or 11. For us it took a bit of dabbling over the summer hols, and then a bigger effort of study and practice papers on the Saturdays she was free, for about two terms. And that was starting from nothing.

If I could have found an evening class or crash-course, then I might well have considered it, but in the end it's the child that needs to sit down and work, and so long as you can find a suitable spot for that, then they should do fine.

If one of my daughters was in the same situation (lol - they are 10 months, and 3 years old at the moment!) I think I would get individual theory lessons so that they could work steadily through the books and absorb it all. I once taught a girl who'd failed Gr5 theory twice because she thought she could just learn the information in the Gr5 workbook. I'd have barely put her at Gr3. Take it steadily, make sure she understands it all because it will be useful later, and if she is desperate to do Gr6 (violin?) rather than a higher grade in a few years, consider switching exam boards until the theory is done. And don't rule out Practical Musicianship as an alternative.