I quite enjoy teaching adults, and particularly like the fact that they often have lessons during the school day.

However, I have two oboe students who originally came to me with the specific challenge of achieving Grade 5 oboe, which they have both now done. They have now announced to me that they would like to take further grades. My problem is that they are not always realistic about how much work this will take, particularly in improving their technique. I have managed to build up their confidence in their ability, often an issue with adults, but they are now possibly a little over confident! I have not had this problem with teenage students on higher grades, perhaps because with them it is easier to play the "strict", demanding teacher!

Does anybody have any good ideas/experiences that I can use to convince these students of how much they still have to achieve without wrecking their confidence!

This is difficult with ay level of adult student! I have a couple who are reaching grade 1 standard and are expecting to be able to play things that they have heard on the radio (mostly mozart and beethoven sonatas!)

It's hard I think to explain to someone how much they need to improve to reach the next level up without knocking their confidence, but I've found it helps to demonstrate where they are now, with where they would like to be.

I would show them a grade 6 piece (if that is what they would like to do next) and ask them to look at it and maybe try playing it. Or show it to them and compare it next to their grade 5 pieces, going through it and explaining to them any new skills required, point out any difficult sections and explain what you would need to work on to be able to play that well - this can then lead to an understanding on their part of the reasons for waiting a bit and improving technique/skills. You could play them a tricky bit and say "this is hard because of ... To work on technique x, which is needed to play parts like this, we need to play a few pieces with y it them, as this will help you with that area. ... " things like that.

The thing with adults is that they need to know why they are doing something or why something is above them at the moment and they need to understand the process behind being able to achieve that.

I would say play the strict teacher.

I am 53, studying for diplomas and aiming (eventually sometime in this lifetime) for a professional level of performance. I have a great relationship with my teacher. She appreciates working with an adult when most of her time is with teenagers and young children.

However, if I ever question her choice of repertoire, use my practice time on new pieces I have discovered, rather than the items for forthcoming recitals , talk too much in lessons, chicken out of something difficult, believe that something I am playing is good enough when a lot of improvement is not only possible, but necessary ... then she has no hesitation in being strict and making me feel like a naughty child.

But it works ...

... and I don't resent it or feel offended at all.

As an adult learner of the oboe I must admit that I am somewhat puzzled by your question. I presume you are not ruling out higher grades altogether, you just mean "not yet" and saying you're not ready yet (with the emphasis on the yet) should not damage anyone's confidence. Surely you don't have to give a date for the next exam - adults ought to be able to project into the future - all you need to do is tell them they are working towards the next grade.

As Cadence says, tell them about the requirements of the next grade. The scales alone (I am assuming it's AB) are presumably going to take some time to learn and may well require new third octave notes. Play the pieces to them and let them have a go at playing them. They ought to be able to see for themselves what needs working on. Since I have started feeling more confident with my teacher, I quite often come into the lesson by saying "I've having trouble with bar(s) X" and we start by working on that before he listens to the rest of the piece and points out other things that also need working on.

I am also (I must admit) bemused by adults measuring progress by exams. My motivation comes from wanting to play music I love. Perhaps you could encourage them to listen to more oboe music - I often say to my teacher do you think I'm capable of playing such and such a piece because I have it on a favourite CD.

I would agree with Mad Tom. I would like to think as an adult learner that I'm "adult" enough to understand how much effort is required and to accept if my teacher tells me I'm doing the wrong stuff, not working hard enough, or I've got x years to go to get to grade y.

I don't know if these figures are any good (they may be way out) but I have seen bandied about that on average it will take about 2000 hours of quality tuition and practice to get to grade 8, of which 900 will get you to Grade 5. The actual number of hours isn't that important, but if the ratio is right, then your Grade 5 adult students ahould be able to realize that they need to put in the same effort again and a bit more to get to Grade 8.

They also need to be doing the right kind of practice to develop the skills and technique to get into the higher grades (not just note bashing pieces they enjoy). Speaking from the dizzying heights of Grade 3 going on 4 oboe, I can see it's much further to the top than down into the valley, but I keep plugging away.

Maybe introduce recording and listening to themselves into their lessons / practice if you haven't already. Two reasons :-

1. It's a really good learning tool
2. There's nothing like listening to yourself play as a reality check for just how good you are!

One small correction:

2. There's nothing like listening to yourself play as a reality check for just how good bad you are!

I'm often shocked at the amount of importance people on these forums place on taking exams and collecting certificates. Then I have to remind myself it's an ABRSM forum!

Thanks for all the input so far!

It's been great to have responses from both other teachers and adult learners. I think these two may be a little unique! I have lots of other adult learners who are realistic about their achievements and the work needed to go further. These two are high achievers in their chosen fields of work! They are also both musical, having reached grade 8 on other instruments. I have been teaching them for 3 or 4 years (respectively), so they have built up a good few hours of 'quality' tuition. However, they still like to go off on tangents sometimes, I think the most extreme example of this was one having been sent away to spend some time on the opening bars of a Nielsen Romance, alongside some thorough work on a Hinke study, to come back the following week having obtained the Mozart Sonata, which they'd put more time into than the set work! This doesn't happen too often, as I have gently 'popped the bubble', but is not unheard of!

They both listen to a great deal of oboe music, this, in part, drives their desire to play certain pieces. I have used this to my advantage for one, who would like to take grade 6 next term, and is listening to his chosen pieces on the ABRSM CD. However, I'm very conscious of how expensive exams get the higher the grade, and I want these two to be able to do themselves real justice. I know they still have a lot of technical work to do, and am struggling to pin them down to what needs doing! It is them who are driven to take exams, I'd happily teach them for pleasure! They both have children who are taking higher grade exams, and I
think there's a little bit of family competition!

I have received some really useful advice so far! Yes, I do need to be stricter! I will record them, although I do not have any quality recording equipment available to be able to transport (I teach at their homes), although this in itself could work to my advantage!

Anymore advice will be gratefully received!

I probably fall into this category myself. Professionally I can't really get much higher, I was (once) grade 8 on the piano and have been having oboe lessons for five years. I probably go off on tangents too (I think this in inherent in my professional field) but maybe not quite the same way as yours. I do bring music in but only when my teacher specifically asks me if there is anything I would like to play.

Perhaps I am the opposite way round to your pupils though, in that I am constantly finding my technique unsatisfactory. After I had been learning for abut 18 months, I begged my teacher to just let me do technical exercices for a couple of months to try and improve my technique. I am playing pieces which are on grade 8 and Dip lists but I am not convinced that my technique is sufficent to do them justice. Don't your pupils compare themselves to their CDs? If they do, surely they realise how much they still need to progress.

Off at a tangent here - sorry margaret, when I record myself I find my tenor playing doesn't sound nearly as good as I thought it did, but my alto (less favoured) sounds better. I suspect they're both at about the same level, but because I think of tenor as my main instrument and alto as the one I'm not so good at my own perception of my playing is different. Or maybe it's because I listen to more tenor players so have more to compare myself with. Or maybe my alto playing is bertter and I should reinvent myself as an alto player and change my forum name to Asax.

There is perhaps also the Grade 5 theory to take into consideration. But maybe they've already got that?

Is it clear how the stuff that you are setting them to do relates to their goals? As in, to do G6 we need to do x, y, z which you can learn by looking at a, b, c.

Are they clear that they need to put in the same amount of work again to get to G8 standard? I think a lot of times when kids learn this isn't as obvious because they do significantly less practice in the lower grades, so they don't realise that they've actually put in as much effort to get from G5-G8 as from G0-G5. And of course, if they are used to the progression of kids in music (themselves, their own kids), this might explain things a little.

Being strict is not necessarily a bad thing. There's no harm in buying and practicing a Mozart Sonata, but perhaps you want to ask them to play the stuff you set anyway in the lesson. Do that often enough and they'll realise that you're going to ask them to play the things that are set whether they've worked on them or not. Then once that has set in, you can try being more flexible.

Maybe you could tell them that playing oboe at higher grades is quite considerably about developing *tone* as well as just twiddling their fingers. And they can spend their time learning pieces with tricky fingerwork, but developing tone only comes with time. Then they might realise that there are no short cuts in that regard.

I have had some adult students who have returned to playing piano for higher grades after 10+ years of not playing. In particular, they seem to think that having passed Grade 5/6 x number of years ago, they can pick up and work towards the next grade without the need to work initially at getting into playing and practicing regularly or exploring repertoire. Even if they agree they need time to work up to the next level, they often have their eyes fixed on the grade exam and don't want to spend time working on a range of repertoire before starting on the specific exam repertoire and other technical requirements - generally they are working full time and time is limited for music practice.

I am still relatively new to teaching, but have learned a lot from these experiences in terms of trying to manage expectations and being both honest and realistic about the amount of time they might need to get to the level they were once at before starting work on the next level up. I think sometimes they don't realise the step from one grade to the next gets bigger the higher up the ladder you get. It is not always easy to manage expectations and some adult students are more open to discuss the possibilities and realistic goals but I have taught a small number of adults with a narrow focus on passing the exam. On a positive note, I have found that adults are generally very motivated and work hard as long as it is on what they want to do. To some extent, I think you have to let adults decide their own goals/learning but I also think I have a responsibility to explain what will be involved in the process. I haven't always done this well but I have a better idea of how to manage similar situations for next time.


Louise

I find this very strange. 20+ years ago I was grade 8 on the piano but I am under no illusion that I play at that level now. I can't play many of the pieces that I once used to be able to play. Although as I type this, it just occurred to me that I can still play the old exam pieces reasonably well (well enough to give myself the illusion that a bit of practice would bring them up to scratch), it's all the other pieces I used to be able to play that I no longer can. Maybe your pupils are ones who only ever did exam pieces.

I thought it was strange too...my last exam was 1990, G4, though I continued to play until 1992. Starting back in 2007ish I started with some complete beginner stuff. I didn't imagine for a moment I would be able to pick up where as 'just-finished-G4' person would have. Secondhand, I found a copy of my 1990 exam pieces and they were just unimaginable! Three flats, in 9/8, how could I ever have played that?
The other day I picked up a random piece of music from my pile and hummed it, and it seemed familar...turns out, it used to be on G2 syllabus so I probably played it way back. My familiarity with that piece was very strange!! But my level of 'comfortable' pieces is probably G3ish, a G4 something I can get through with some wobbles - it will be plenty of time yet before I'm where I was in 1992!

It was very odd when my teacher has started me on a piece which happens to be the G6 syllabus, although it has shown me that those things I found 'unimaginably' hard probably aren't as hard as I think - if I just break them down and practise them and learn them, but I'd forgotten how to do that. Besides which, I'm under no illusion that I'm playing these G6 syllabus pieces at G6 standard!

One of these adults has just passed Grade 7 - a great relief to me that it was a pass and I'm pleased for them as they had put in a lot of time and effort alongside working and managing family. We were not expecting a high pass but nevertheless it is a huge achievement for someone restarting after a long break. My job will now be managing the next stage and encouraging some consolidation, exploring repertoire and building on the work which has been put in over the last year or so. More learning for me too ...

I agree with a lot of what is said on here, you need to explain:
1. G0-1 is approx the same effort as G5-8
2. Marking gets harder from G6 (I've read this on these forums - but don't quite know why its harder)
3. Its better to play several pieces for each list and then choose which 3 to take forward and 'polish' as oppossed to just choosing 3 from the CD.

Also ask them:
1. How would you feel if they failed an exam (My aim for G6 is to walk out of the room thinking I've done well So I won't be rushing to take it)
2. Why they are so keen to do the exams 'early'

One thing to try might be to:
Ask them to prepare a piece and 3 or 4 (of the hardest scales) for next week - If they can't do a whole piece yet then just a section of one. Tell them you're going to do a mock exam on this small portion of the actual exam next week and that as it is so small you would expect them to get full marks. (As there are two of them if you could get them both to attend each others mock exam it might help too as another person adds to the tension.) Then see how they do and give them an honest mark explaining that you get half marks for trying.

Also there are adult learner concerts on these forums - maybe you could suggest they take place in one of these, probably a much better skill than an exam.

I could not agree more! Music making has to be about just that; not pot hunting. Do they need to pass exams now? Surely they just want to learn how to play the things well don't they. Why do they want pieces of paper telling then that at a set time on a certain day they were able to turn out performances that met with a certain exam standard? Why not encourage them to make steady progress by working at studies, exs, repertoire etc and suggest an exam sometime when they don't have to spend hours working up to that standard?

Because an exam is a chance to play something in front of someone: an occasion. A number of adults find concerts and festivals (with a larger audience) more stressful than playing in front of an examiner, who, after all, is a professional musician you've paid to listen to you!

I agree - none of my adults, the ones I have been thinking about for this thread, were interested in playing in front of a wider audience, in fact both of them would have been petrified at the idea. Whilst they want to learn and enjoy playing for themselves, part of the motivation is being able to measure their standard and say they have reached Grade x, having been through the exam process as proof. Often, Grade 8 as the ultimate goal in their mind. I would encourage them to play in front of others informally if they wanted to but I can't force anyone to do this.

I do have other adults who have no interest in exams whatsoever and who are simply learning for their own enjoyment, want to be able to play music they enjoy and improve their playing ability on the way. This is generally a more productive way to learn and much less stressful for all!


Louise

Sorry, but I've got to question you on this. Why on earth should that be the case for adults? Is it the case for your child pupils too, or have you got some peculiar idea that adult learning is somehow different?

All pupils are pupils. Some are motivated by exams and some are not. Respect that regardless of their age, and don't put obstacles in their way from some irrational idea that having left school before you start your instrument makes you past it.

Some of us didn't get the opportunities to do things when we were younger. Help us achieve them now, not put us down.

Pretty much sums up what I was thinking Katyjay.

As an adult learner people always ask how well you can play and it's nice to be able to say Gx and know you're telling the truth. I have a friend who is not taking exams and her reply is 'not very well' which is probably about the same as me but saying I've just sat G5 is a lot more positive.

My last teacher said he was glad I'd decided to take exams as he felt they focussed the mind and meant you didn't miss out the bits you don't like doing. And certainly I don't polish non exam pieces to the same extent and after an exam I can definatly see an improvement when I try or re-try new pieces.

I agree exams aren't everything - and there are some people on here that seem to take 1 per term - which I think is a bit mad whatever their age, as if you're progressing that fast you may as well skip one or two exams and save money. But if you enjoy the exam experience and it is that piece of paper that says you have passed Gx that motivates you on your off days then hey go for it.

Also a lot of Orchestras etc. want G6 plus. I wouldn't feel confident joining unless I know I was G6 and I've been told that 1 group near me do want to see the certificate.

Also as others have said this is an exam board forum - so presumable we all came here because we know the exams exist and to some extent at least believe they are a good idea?

Sorry to have made you angry - it was not at all intended. I focused on adults because that was the original thread and the sometimes unrealistic expectations of how long it takes to achieve the higher grades. I'm sorry you thought I was suggesting that adults are different or that starting an instrument after school makes you past it - there was absolutely no intention to suggest this at all. If I thought that, then I wouldn't choose to teach them. I enjoy teaching adults as well as children, seeing them develop their skills and encouraging them to achieve what they want to achieve. It is certainly not my experience that all adults have unrealistic expectations as other people have said earlier in this thread but I have had a small number come to me with very fixed goals and very fixed ideas and timescales about how they wanted to achieve those goals.


Louise

But what is an unrealistic expectation? Adults can achieve a lot when they put their minds to it.


When, at the age of 35 I started singing lessons, it wasn't with a view of doing exams - that was a suggestion my teacher made after a couple of months, at which time I thought he'd be putting me in for grade 1 or something, not the grade 8 he suggested as a "first step". In fact, it was my decision to do grade 5 (for which I got a distinction) as an introduction before doing grade 8 the following term that meant I took more than a year to get my grade 8 distinction......it took me two years from starting to get my first diploma, three years and three months to get my licentiate, and I admit I've slowed down in that my fellowship attempt will be six years and six months after my very first singing lesson.

Would it have been a realistic expectation to go from my first lesson to a fellowship exam in six and a half years?

Meanwhile, I took piano lessons again (for the first time in many years after having achieved precisely nothing with my teacher as a youngster other than a sheer terror of the darned instrument), and got grade 5 with distinction a shade over a year later, with my teacher's only caveat being that taking time out to do the exam would slow my overall progress down a fraction.....

Is grade 5 in a year from a low level restart a realistic expectation?

Alongside these, I started recorder lessons, building again on a very long gap by starting with grade 5 after a year, grade 7 two terms later and grade 8 three terms after that. All distinctions again.

Is grade 8 in less than three years after not playing since primary school a realistic expectation?

Oh, and in the mean time I took up the violin from scratch, got grade 1 with distinction a year later and grade 5 with merit two years after that.....

Is that a realistic expectation?

Not to mention doing grades 5 & 8 Practical Musicianship, grades 6 & 8 theory and a teaching diploma (another distinction).

I didn't "expect" any of that. But it happened, mainly because no-one had the cheek to suggest I couldn't do it.

I have twice been told "not yet" to an exam idea, and because each time that's been with an explanation from the teacher involved of why the delay (of a term in each case) will be beneficial, I've accepted that, and have worked to the revised timescale, with pretty good results as a consequence.


All that time I've been playing and singing in groups, Adult Learner concerts (after I perceived the need and organised the first one), recitals etc. But finding such activities is hard if you're not in school, and exams are the external target that's easiest to deploy when there's nothing else available.


By the way, up to shortly before I took my singing Licentiate and the grade 5s in piano and recorder, I held down a career as a finance director for the European arm of a major American company. I gave that up to concentrate on music when it looked like I might just be getting good enough to earn some money from that....

Would it have been an unrealistic expectation when I started lessons at 35 that before I was 40 I'd have become a full-time musician?


It's easy to dismiss someone's expectations as unrealistic. It's far more courteous to let them know what they need to achieve to meet those expectations, and to encourage them to fulfil those requirements, advising them if necessary why a bit more time may be needed to get there.

I teach some children who are like this too. They just want to enjoy playing. Something like I was (and mostly still am I think) when I started. I just wanted to learn how to play the piano. I'd never even heard of exams and have done relatively few even now.
I don't think this is particularly anything to do with lower or higher expectations.

Sorry Katyjay, but I think you're being way too harsh in your response to Louise's comments.

I think there may be a difference between pianists and other instrumentalists that is confusing the issue. I can enjoy playing the piano on my own. But for most other music making I need someone else. There's a limit to how much enjoyment I get out of playing or singing a melody line at home by myself. And I can justify paying for someone else's time if I have an exam in the offing, but not for my own selfish pleasure.

As an adult student myself, I think this is the approach which my teacher is taking. A couple of times she has reminded me that at our first consultation session last year, I said that I wanted to get Grade 8 At the moment, I'm light years away from that, and I might change my mind anyway - who knows how I'll feel in 2, 3, 4 years time. But she's working on my technique and giving me harder pieces to do which I would never have attempted of my own volition. At the same time, she's happy for me to use some of my time practising pieces for concerts and playing those pieces in lessons. I understand that by doing this, my technical expertise will progress more slowly, but for me it's a good balance and it seems to be working well for both me and my teacher.

I'm an adult piano learner and although I've only been playing for 7 months my expectation is also to get to Grade 8 but I have set myself no real time limit if I get there at all. I like doing the exams as (I think) it's a good barometer of progress and gives me something specific to work towards but I also like playing for playings sake and have always got several bits and bobs on the go at anyone time.

I've just restarted clarinet after 20 odd years where I did grade 8 but I'm under no illusion that I'll be able to play to that level again any time soon and have started back on studies and stuff around grade 5 level.

It's only the exam itself that's the stressful bit, I enjoy working up to it and for me anyway the only reason I get so nervous is that as an adult you don't seem to have the same opportunity to play in front of different people as I did when I was at school / college. I don't ever remeber getting as nervous as I was for my 1st piano exam when I was doing higher level grades at college but then they say time is a great healer (I also don't remember doing dim / dom 7ths either!!)

Ahhh well I suppose we're all different

Lois

I've cut out most of your post Katyjay to save space - but well done for all your achievements.

I think you're final sentence sums it up - although as with all good advice it may sometimes be easier said that done.

Can I also add (as my post also upset someone and I think everyone is really saying the same thing) Exams are right for some and not others.
As long as you're ready for the exam then the speed at which you progress is not what is important.
It is not the exams or certificates that make you a 'good' player it is the effort (and enjoyment) that goes into practicing to achieve them.

I quite agree.

Your achievements, Katyjay, are brilliant but you are probably the exception that proves the rule.

You have your experience as one pupil. Louise and many of us have the experience over the years of teaching a vast number of pupils, all ages, all levels.

When a complete beginner comes to me I have no instant inbuilt expectations. The first 5 minutes of the first lesson will be the same whoever it is and whatever their goals. As we go through the lesson, I will speed up and race through huge chunks if they can obviously grasp instantly what I want them to do. Equally, I'll slow and just repeat things if they're having trouble mastering it.
At the end of the lesson I set work based on where we've got to. The next week I will have a rough lesson plan but will also have a wide margin allowing for rushing forwards or consolidation, as appropriate.

My point is that, if my 50 year-old student who started from scratch in September and wanted to play a Chopin nocturne 'soonish' is still basically a beginner that is not because I have 'held her back' due to my 'low expectations'.

I'm sure Louise, and the vast majority of teachers, have a similar approach.

I'm not sure that this is quite fair to katyjay, who has had experience of teaching pupils over several years herself, including one adult pupil who is not at all dissimilar to those mentioned by music margaret in the initial posts. (And I'm not giving away confidential information here because that pupil is me.)

You may be right, Andante in C, and I certainly meant no criticism of Katyjay as a teacher but her comments, as Jenny said, were quite a harsh indictment on Louise and I don't feel that Louise deserved it - she was only giving an example of what SOME adults are like (and I've certainly seen quite a few that fall well into that camp).

I don't think katyjay was narked simply by Louise's comments. See the post below.

I was quite surprised to read this response from petrat, whose signature reveals that she must have taken an awful lot of exams in her time!!

Exams are not necessarily "pot hunting"; they serve a purpose in giving adult learners a focus.

I'm assuming when you say 'may be right' you are not suggesting my facts are wrong?

I understood Louise to say that adults who learn simply for pleasure are doing the best thing, whereas those of us who seek to take exams are somehow causing stress and headaches both for ourselves and our teachers. Some of us are doing exams because that is the way we like to be motivated. A lot of mine come under the heading of continuous professional development. Some of them aren't strictly necessary, but I'd like to do them just the same.

I think my piano teacher is longing for the day I take Grade 8 as he's not sure what to do with me otherwise. I'm not good at finding time in my over-busy teaching schedule to learn material at that level. Passing Grade 8 won't make me any better at playing the piano but I'd like a few pieces under my belt of that standard.

I wonder why the two are often seen as separate things?
Why should learning 'simply for pleasure' mean that you don't want to be encouraged and even appropriately pushed to improve? And why can't preparing for exams be part of the fun of learning?
If it's not mostly for pleasure then I wonder what IS the point?

It's funny how we all read things in different ways because this wasn't my understanding at all, and as an adult student myself, I thought Louise's response to the OP was fair comment

And when dolce@piano said "you may be right", I understood her to be agreeing with your statement about being fair to katyjay rather than disputing your facts

No, I wasn't challenging your facts at all, of course not, I was simply saying that your point may well be right.

In fact, I wasn't commenting on the exam side of things. Horses for courses. I've had adults who naturally like exams, those who don't and several who I've gently coerced into giving one a try because, in their particualr case, I think it'll have a lot of benefits.

I was refering more to the Louise's point about the question of adults' expectations and their understanding of quite what is involved in order to achieve them. And I know that each case is different but there are a surprising number of adult beginners who just assume that they will be able to play great works after a year or so.

I wrote that in reply to the original poster. I may have misinterpreted her post but I had the impression that her two oboe students wanted to pass the exams without wanting to put in the work that was necessary to improve other aspects of their playing just to have that grade six pass.
I was lucky in having a lot of performing opportunities as a teenager. I used to sing in several choirs, play in school groups and a local orchestra and take part in festivals every month, sometimes more often.
I didn''t sit many grade exams at all. It wasn't the usual thing then to sit one grade after another. I don't think that any of my friends did so and I certainly didn't. My teachers would suggest an exam when I was ready and we did a lot of other work too. My first exams were at grade five level and above. Most of my exams were dips taken as a full time music student.
I had not considered the idea that adult students would want to use exams as opportunities to perform to professionals. Sometimes we miss the obvious don't we?
I know that some adults want to take their studies to as high a level as they can, some with a view to career changes. In my experience this is unusual but for those who do obviously grade and diploma exams are an important part of their learning. One Forum member has done amazingly well in making her career change but she is certainly an exception.
If students are motivated to take exams then I am not against that at all. For some it works and for others it doesn't. There is so much more to making music than passing exams for most adult learners though.

Er, yes, that's the reason I was checking. I wasn't sure which way dolce@piano intended it to be understood. It's very easy to misunderstand things written down in places like this. I hope this has cleared up my intentions, which were to clarify rather than anything else.

Is that what you meant to say?

One thing the OP does prove though is that she is a victim of her own success. Perhaps the two oboeists whom she initially thought were not material for higher grades have surprised her and themselves by the amount that they have progressed and how well she has inspired them. They should be ENcouraged.

My, this forum thread tonight is an exercise in language and tone analysis. It's not much of a break for me the English Literature teacher! Aren't we getting just a tad heavy (for a weekend especially) in analysing what x or y might have meant by a b or c?

LR

Just wanted to put in a word for those of us who enjoy exams (music or otherwise). It's perfectly possible to play music without doing exams; it's perfectly possible to learn about other subjects without exams.
Me, exams / external measures are part of the fun. That's why I study with the OU, not only do I get to learn about something I'm interested in, but I have the structure with learning it and the achievement at the end. In no way is this less pleasurable than learning something on my own, e.g. by reading the set texts of the course but in my own time, on my own.
Likewise with music exams. Playing a wide range of repertoire to a decent level is great fun. Having a teacher to guide me in the process provides me with the structure of learning. Making some of the pieces absolutely super extra polished and giving a performance of them - at a concert, in a music festival, to an examiner - is all just part of the fun.

However, I thoroughly accept that other people don't want to do exams. People who dislike exams will likely wonder why I put myself through the 'horror' of exams. Well, because to me, they're not a horror. Neither of us is right or wrong - we're just different.

"I wrote that in reply to the original poster. I may have misinterpreted her post but I had the impression that her two oboe students wanted to pass the exams without wanting to put in the work that was necessary to improve other aspects of their playing just to have that grade six pass. "


Yes, that is indeed the case. Although, to be fair, it is more about not having time to practise effectively rather than a lack of desire! I have other adult students, some who take exams, some who don't, but I don't always have these issues. Some adults take exams to give a focus for their learning - I totally understand this. Others wouldn't touch exams with a bargepole, their learning is of no less value!!

I think my real frustrations were about having one student who is really very keen to take grade 6, having been already put back for a term. This student plays in a number of local ensembles, but has some unique technical challenges!